So, who has led since Eisner....and do we like him/her?

[YoHo]

That's true, the initial intention, or rather, the expectation was to document a CEO and company that were good.

I don't know why anyone would have suggested that Katzenberg made out like an angel. He's a jerk too. He just got played by a bigger jerk.

 

[DancingBear]

The stupid thing Eisner did with Katzenberg wasn't not making him President as Katz wanted, it was trying to cheat him out of his severance pay.

 

[SandraVB79]

Sorry I am simply adding that I found this to be hilarious

Everyone makes some great points. I tend to lean on the side of "The past is gone forever" but then again, I have no idea what it was like in 1971. To me the Disney of 1990 is "the old days" and I am perfectly happy with what we have

I have only read up to page 6.
The Disney I can relate starts in 1998, that's when I first set foot in a Disney park (DL) and fell in love with it. It wasn't until 2001 that I visited DLp and 2006 that I visited WDW.
I am way too young to remember Walt, I have no clue how it was in the old days, but am I therefor a dumber visitor?
I enjoy these parks for what they are, and I don't care what they used to be. Nothing will ever be like it used to be, because everything is evolving. Could things be better? Sure, but I'm sure there were things that could be better in the old days too

Also, when you go very often to the same place, it just looses its magic, because it's becoming a habbit. I have that now with DLP. Yes, the place is very beautiful and all, but it's not as magical to me as it once was. It used to be an expensive trip I made every 2 years, and now I'm there about every month

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

I have only read up to page 6.
The Disney I can relate starts in 1998, that's when I first set foot in a Disney park (DL) and fell in love with it. It wasn't until 2001 that I visited DLp and 2006 that I visited WDW.
I am way too young to remember Walt, I have no clue how it was in the old days, but am I therefor a dumber visitor?
I enjoy these parks for what they are, and I don't care what they used to be. Nothing will ever be like it used to be, because everything is evolving. Could things be better? Sure, but I'm sure there were things that could be better in the old days too

Also, when you go very often to the same place, it just looses its magic, because it's becoming a habbit. I have that now with DLP. Yes, the place is very beautiful and all, but it's not as magical to me as it once was. It used to be an expensive trip I made every 2 years, and now I'm there about every month

You may not be a dumber visitor but for some reason your expectations are lower. I was just a kid when WDSW opened and honestly didn't go often as my parents didn't like it and we kids didn't love it.

I started to appreciate Disney in the early 90's. It gave me an escape that I was looking for with my young children and all was hunkey dorey. But as the kids grew and my knowledge of Disney grew I could see the shifting of attitude away from the covenents that Disney was famous for. They no longer strived to be the best they could be, they no longer strived to exceed the guests expectations, they were no longer superior to other companies as they had always been and that didn't (doesn't) bother them.

The tribute to what Walt created is that after all this time, through all these changes and despite a total reversal of company philosophy many, many people are still able to find some of the magic that Walt intended. Not just brand loyalty, not just phoney celebrations, not just expensive commemorative pins but the fact that some of the CM's still feel like they're working for a special company, that the greatness of rides 30 years old and characters even older have endured the test of time. That despite the overall feeling that all Disney really wants to do is rob your wallet there is still something magical about the premise on which it was all built. I think it's more in evidence at DL than WDW but it's there nonetheless.

So no, you're not 'dumber' for the way you look at WDW but you are shortchanging what Walt gave us. What Walt proved could be done. The fact that he believed and succeeded by giving us quality at any cost, by telling us the story we didn't even know we wanted to hear, by always trying to exceed our expectations proves that even today it doesn't have to be bottom line thinking only. PIXAR is living proof of a modern company who took Walt's philosophy and excelled.

Enjoy Disney for what it is but IMO it's just sad to write off the greatness of what once was just because it is now what it once was...

 

[zulemara]

The tribute to what Walt created is that after all this time, through all these changes and despite a total reversal of company philosophy many, many people are still able to find some of the magic that Walt intended. Not just brand loyalty, not just phoney celebrations, not just expensive commemorative pins but the fact that some of the CM's still feel like they're working for a special company, that the greatness of rides 30 years old and characters even older have endured the test of time. That despite the overall feeling that all Disney really wants to do is rob your wallet there is still something magical about the premise on which it was all built. I think it's more in evidence at DL than WDW but it's there nonetheless.

and I intend to be that CM each and everyday starting on day 1 when I get back in January and continuing all the way up the chain.

I really latched onto Disney as a theme park in 2003 and then when I went as a CP in aug 2004 I really became a lifer. There were several events in my life that made me latch onto the company and the experience and that's what drives me to go back. For some people, the Disney of the 90s is the old Disney. For me, it only goes back to 2004, but things like the closing of PI, reduction of fantasmic is the same as other people's views of things that have changed or closed in the past.

And yet...no matter how mad I get at the book(and I expected to get angry, so I told ya so doesn't really apply ) I am drawn to go back. Why? Why can I stand at an info table and tell people why they should work for Disney while at the same time I do nothing but b*** about the company. It's because at the very root, there ARE still people who want to give guests the magical experience. A CM on the front lines can't control PI closing or a ride closing or a show being reduced, but that CM can make someone's day just by saying hello and smiling. On top of that, LGBT issues are extremely important to me and quite frankly, Disney is a leader in the corporate world and has been within its upper ranks going back to the late 80s.

I feel like WDW is my only safe haven where I don't have to worry and the fact that so many CMS do so much to make your day keeps me coming back.

So while I'll complain about plenty of things they do, I hope I never turn my back on the company. As long as the theme parks are around, I'll be there trying to work my way up the ranks.

 

[k5thbeatle]

... People will be far more willing to pay first class prices for first class experience.

My nomination for THE BEST comment on these boards ever!!!

Why has this basic concept been forgotten (and not just by Disney)? People will still pay top dollar if the value is there...

 

[raidermatt]

The reasons you still want to work there are much the same reasons that many of us continue to post and talk about Disney. We know what's going on up top, and unfortunately much of it has filtered down through the organization. That's unavoidable.

But there are still people who WANT to do things right, even if they don't know exactly what that means anymore. The situation will not improve without true change at the top, but the hope is that the change will eventually come and there will be enough of Walt's vision left for them to build on.

There's really no logical reason to think that will really happen, but I guess that's the hope.


Sandra, I think Mr. Pirate said it well. You are not a "dumber" guest, you just have lower expectations because you don't have a frame of reference that includes how the company was run at one time. You can't differentiate between what came from the original vision and what came from the "new" Disney.

The good (or bad) news is that if you want to learn, the info is out there. Most who take the time to do so come to similar conclusions, that things have most certainly not changed for the better. It does unfortunately tend to sour you on the current company, but it also will give you a greater appreciation for what REALLY created the true Disney, the Disney that still manages to shine through today, despite all that has happened around it.

 

[raidermatt]

My nomination for THE BEST comment on these boards ever!!!

Why has this basic concept been forgotten (and not just by Disney)? People will still pay top dollar if the value is there...

The majority in the business world have always looked more toward figuring out how little they can provide to acheive a certain profit. Those that focused on providing a "fair" value have always been the minority. Disney has just moved from one group to the other.

 

[k5thbeatle]

... Maybe it's because people expect less these days since the same type of thing have become generally accepted everywhere...

BINGO!

 

[YoHo]

It's not as simple as lowered expectations.

It's not like one day everyone who went to WDW decided they'd accept a crappier experience.

Disney just started degrading the experience and expectations followed. Always with an excuse.

When Disney was riding high, it was easy to just assume they knew what they were doing. People who just want to enjoy their vacation and aren't into the history wouldn't know or care about the difference.

It's only now when things have gotten so noticable that many more people care.

Having said all that, nobody's dumb for liking current WDW. Although, I would say that a website like this would never exist if Disney hadn't been better than it is now. It wouldn't have had the popularity.

 

[raidermatt]

I don't get that either. From the start, Disney set out not to give people what they were willing to accept, but to give them more than they would have ever thought to ask for.

Nobody was clamoring for a full length animated feature, nobody was asking for a theme park designed like a movie set, etc.

That's one of the things that made Disney what it became... they sought to exceed expectations, not just meet them. That was a significant way in which they differed from the rest.

Today, more often than not, they choose to meet instead of exceed. That's their choice, not the public's.

We all know the quote from Walt that says "Give the people everything you can give them". Now, I know you can't manage by soundbytes, but it's signficant that he didn't say "Give the people everything they ask for".

It's a huge distinction.

 

[k5thbeatle]

This is an interesting thread to be sure.

As someone pointed out somewhere in this thread (I believe), despite the changes and the valid negative points exemplifying the decrease in quality the company is making money. And I suppose you cannot argue that. However, one can't help but wonder if this will continue or, as I believe, eventually come back to bite them. I guess only time will tell? I know we have decided to skip a trip this year as we no longer value the experience as we once did. Certainly there can be many reasons for this but amongst our reasons is a noted decline in quality. Just my 2 cents.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I don't get that either. From the start, Disney set out not to give people what they were willing to accept, but to give them more than they would have ever thought to ask for.

Just to expound a bit on the subject that Matt (and others) have touched on. It comes down to expectations (which has been mentioned) combined with (and this is most important) experience, and VALUE.

Since 1968 I have always maintained that Disney was expensive. People who had never been there would ask about the cost of such a vacation. And I would honestly tell them. Their reaction (after they finally shut their gaping mouths) was universally, “WOW!”

But I would quickly follow it up with, “But it is worth every penny!!!!”

Let me give you an example.

Back in 1964 every across the country there were amusement parks. Inevitably each of these parks had a ride similar to the “tunnel of love”. A simple boat ride with cardboard cut outs plastered onto the walls. Let’s say for the sake of argument that this ride (yes rides were individually priced) was sixty cents. (The money amounts are NOT necessarily accurate, I did no research whatsoever and I am going just on feel. They are used only as illustration.)

Now here comes this guy named Walt, and builds an amusement park. And he puts in a ride similar to the tunnel of love; boat ride that goes past scenes. But instead of cardboard cutouts, he takes it a step further. Several steps further. He tells a story with is ride. AND he makes it move! AND he themes it. AND it isn’t dark, but instead is wonderfully bright!! AND he adds music!! A catchy little tune that you can’t forget (no matter how hard you try!!!) AND he creates an outside facade that simply dazzles the eyes!!! AND for all this he does charge more that the going rate of 60 cents. He charges 75 cents! He could have charged three times that!!!

Within a couple of years, insisting that the company remain cutting-edge he adds lifelike figures that dazzle the imagination and a story that is deep in sub-text, style and movement. And he still charges just minimally over the standard rate for the corner-store, dime-a-dozen, dilapidated variety of rides that were offered in every stupid carnival and amusement park across the country! Yes!! Pirates was the most expensive “boat ride” in the amusement park world. But, MAN-O-MAN!!! Was it worth it!!

And when you come right down to it, it didn’t break the bank at all!! In fact, when you consider how high Disney raised the bar, when you thought about what you actually got for your hard earned dollars compared to similar entertainment, it was downright CHEAP!! And that’s what put the VALUE into the experience!!

Anyone can make a wonderful experience for people. You see the very rich have those experiences all the time. If you pay enough money and the company throws enough money at a project, anything is possible. But is the experience worth the price? Is the experience what I expect it to be?

In other words does it have value? Does it exceed my expectations for the money I’m paying? Sadly today, I’m not so sure.

 

[k5thbeatle]

...In other words does it have value? Does it exceed my expectations for the money I’m paying? Sadly today, I’m not so sure.

That's exactly how we feel.

 

[rutgers1]

DVC Landbaron.........I guess this is where I disagree with you. I had season passes to Hershey Park, and although I love Hershey, Disney exceeds it in so many ways that I have lost count. Forget about comparing it to carnivals and seaside boardwalk areas (like Wildwood NJ). I have also been to the local Six Flags here in New Jersey, and once again, it can't compare. For example, although the Six Flags has a safari ride that you drive through, I would gladly pay more money for the safari at Animal Kingdom. No comparison. Six Flags used to have a freefall ride where you were dropped vertically from several stories up, but it can't begin to compare with the theming of Tower of Terror.

Now, back to the striking difference between the original Magic Kingdom and other theme parks. I will agree that the difference is not as striking as it once was if you are comparing individual rides at some parks, or perhaps comparing it to Universal - a theme park that has been doing everything it can to copy and in some cases differentiate from the original. But for that, isn't it possible that others have raised their games as much as Disney might have let us down? Once Walt showed what could be done at a theme park, it was pretty easy for others with deep pockets - perhaps DEEPER pockets - to say, "Oh, so THAT is what the people want! Let's do it!" And despite having nearly 50 years to do so, no company has come close. Some might say that Universal is getting there, but then again, how long did it take them to get started, and how far do they still have to go? I am going to Universal next summer, but only for 2 days out of a 2-week Disney trip. Considering most people just make it a stopover, it is clear that Universal still has a lot of work to do.

Now, with that said, there are things that could happen that would make me side with you:
1) After what I believe were the post-Walt glory years in animation (Lion King, Little Mermaid, etc.), I have been disappointed with recent theatrical releases. If that continues or continues to slide, I would be unhappy.
2) If Disney fails to respond to Harry Potter Land with something equally exciting, I will be really, really disappointed. At this point, Disney themes rides and places them into already loosely themed areas of the park. However, with Harry Potter becoming an entire area of the park that falls into a single theme, completely enveloping the guest in a new world, the clear innovator in theming at this point is Universal. Disney has to respond....I realize that they created an entire PARK out of a theme, Animal Kingdom, but I still think that the Harry Potter Land is going to offer something that Disney has yet to offer.
3) While I am actually very happy with the CM's and the overall service at Disney, if it were to take a turn for the worse, I would be concerned. I realize that my frame of reference has only been the past 30 years, but in that time, my family and myself have not noticed any changes. In fact, with teh addition of new hotels, new parks, and new restaurants, we are overall very happy with the direction of the company.

Last but not least, here are my two big hopes. As we know, they are apparently announcing something huge tomorrow. Let's hope it is either a super cool replacement for Pleasure Island or a super cool competitor to Harry Potter Land. In my book, anything else will be a disappointment.

 

[deej696]

I have enjoyed the commentary of this thread the last couple pages. I agree with much of what has been said here, and I disagree with others. The heart of my opinion basically remains the same. Disney is not the same today as it was in 1955, and it never will be. Either we can evolve with what is offered, or we can take our money elsewhere. Thats the beautiful thing about living in America and our free market system. When people stop turning the turnstiles, then Disney is forced to make changes to get them coming back. I never have understood those who complain about the downturn in quality at Disney, and yet list 2 vacations a year since 1985 in their profile. So long as the millions keep flocking to the parks, and the thousands keep discussing every minute detail of the company here on these boards and others, then Disney is in no way forced to make any changes. When it comes to the changes we've all seen in the company, we can blame Eisner, we can blame Iger, we can blame Suzie next door, but the fact is we all still give our money to Disney, and until we make changes to our behavior, the company wont change their's. Its like someone complaining about $4 gas while they fill up their Ford Excursion.

There's 2 more cents for the fountain...

 

[Another Voice]

So long as the millions keep flocking to the parks,

You mean like the millions that used to flock to the theater every summer to see Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King, only to have Disney create failures like Treasure Planet and Home on the Range that played to such empty theaters that Disney closed their feature animation staff and shut down the division? And then created such instantly forgettable movies like Chicken Little and Meet the Robinsons. And were forced by Wall Street to pay SEVEN BILLION DOLLARS for the one company that contiuned to fall Disney methods?

Yes, success is forever.

Or do you mean the millions that used to flock to The Disney Stores to buy all the wonderful merchandise themed around Disney characters? Only to watch the quality of the merchandise erode over time, to see the stores chase after trends and high turnover trinkets at the expense of quality. And then to watch as Disney literally gave the stores away without receiving even a single penny for a business they spent decades building?

Once again Disney is successful without effort.

How about GO.com - Disney's brilliant and expensive attempt to become a major player on the Internet? How many people flocked to The Disney Institute? How many people today flock to Disney Quest Chicago?

People want to delude themselves into thinking that Walt Disney World will always be there.

You're dead wrong.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I had season passes to Hershey Park, and although I love Hershey, Disney exceeds it in so many ways that I have lost count.

Do you think for a moment that Ei$ner or Igor had (has) anything to do with that at all? Or could it be the legacy that Walt left. The same legacy that that the bobsy-twins seem hell bent on destroying.

I will agree that the difference is not as striking as it once was

Thank you – so far so good!

But for that, isn't it possible that others have raised their games as much as Disney might have let us down?

The point is in your phrase “as much as”. Re-read your sentence again. Yes! Certainly the others have elevated their game. And if Disney was still run with Walt’s philosophy no matter how hard the others tried they would have never let “the difference is not as striking as it once was” come to pass. And I wouldn’t be here telling you that things are going to get worse. Because it would be evident that the helm of Disney “GOT IT”. That they understood the basic principles of the Disney Philosophy.

Once Walt showed what could be done at a theme park, it was pretty easy for others with deep pockets - perhaps DEEPER pockets - …

Who did you have in mind that has deeper pockets than Disney?

1) After what I believe were the post-Walt glory years in animation (Lion King, Little Mermaid, etc.), I have been disappointed with recent theatrical releases. If that continues or continues to slide, I would be unhappy.

That would be you’re breaking point. That would be the thing that moves you to the third car? Well, let me dust off the shotgun seat in car #3 because we’re already there!!!!

2) If Disney fails to respond to Harry Potter Land with something equally exciting, I will be really, really disappointed. At this point, Disney themes rides and places them into already loosely themed areas of the park. However, with Harry Potter becoming an entire area of the park that falls into a single theme, completely enveloping the guest in a new world, the clear innovator in theming at this point is Universal. Disney has to respond...

Isn’t it sad that Disney has to respond. Isn’t it sad that the "clear innovator of themeing is Universal" and NOT Disney. Isn’t it sad that you are making my point much better than I have been able to do, yet you still refuse to see it!?

Disney shouldn’t ever “HAVE TO RESPOND!” Disney should be leading the way. And they are CLEARLY not. And I contend that it is the current corporate philosophy that prevents them from doing so.

I realize that they created an entire PARK out of a theme, Animal Kingdom

Yes! Another disaster!! But a topic for another thread I guess!!

3) While I am actually very happy with the CM's and the overall service at Disney, if it were to take a turn for the worse, I would be concerned.

Well, it has. But I will grant you that the change in attitude is minimal. But you have to realize that the basic CM training came directly from Walt!! It is one of those carry-over pieces of the philosophy that hasn’t completely died. YET! As you may know CMs go through a training call “Traditions”. Under Walt it was an intensive 3 day course teaching the Disney philosophy. They still teach it, but the Ei$ner/Igor tag team have cut it down to one day! And from what I hear it is now a blow-off course. One in which the instructors are told to pass everyone!! No matter how much they absorbed.

It’s also kind of telling that no management members are given even the one day version. No wonder why they haven’t got the foggiest notion just what Walt’s philosophy is about!

In fact, with the addition of new hotels, new parks, and new restaurants, we are overall very happy with the direction of the company.

WOW!! You’re happy with the restaurants in EPCOT!? You’re happy that every gift shop sells the same things? You’re happy that every new ride empties into a gift shop? You’re happy that every new hotel (with only one exception) on the property is themed in a North American style (as opposed to the original concept of exotic locales, i.e. Asia, Persia, etc.)!! You’re happy with Pop Century!! You’re happy with that stupid Hat in the Studios!? You’re happy with AK a ½ day park at best!? You’re happy with the carnival rides and games at AK!? You’re happy that they are hawking cheap trinkets before the parades and fireworks (something that Walt vehemently opposed!!) You’re happy that they are letting EPCOT go to seed!? Etc., etc., etc.!!!

I’m not.

Last but not least, here are my two big hopes. As we know, they are apparently announcing something huge tomorrow. Let's hope it is either a super cool replacement for Pleasure Island or a super cool competitor to Harry Potter Land. In my book, anything else will be a disappointment.

Get out your book then!!! I think you are in for a HUGE disappointment!!

 

[FireDancer]

I just stumbled upon this thread and I find it very interesting. I am a big fan not only of the “magical” side of Disney but also the business side. Something I have noticed in the general fan community is that sometime it gets lost that the Disney of 2008 is vastly different than the Disney of 1966. The fiscal responsibility of the CEO of a publicly traded fortune 100 company with 1.8+ Billion shares outstanding is much more complex than those Walt faced.

I will try my best to put my 2 cents in on some of the issues raised on the previous 11 pages.

Disney seems to go in cycles between creative leadership and business-based leadership. Eisner was the former, Iger the latter; when he is gone I suspect another creative-type person will lead Disney. I put much of Eisner’s success to those around him. Being a creative Type A person I think he needed someone around him to reign him in. Frank Wells did a very good job and his death was a turning point. He wasn’t there to mediate between Eisner and Katzenberg and I think Eisner saw Katzenberg as a threat which is why there was no chance he would be named president. Eisner didn’t even want Wells because he didn’t want to compete with his own COO for power. Roy pushed Frank as a necessity to get Eisner appointed by the board. By the time Frank died Eisner had too much control of the board for them to be able to force a powerful number 2 on Eisner. Michael also had that great big carrot of President to hold over anyone’s head who might not just go along with his ideas. Sandy Litvak and Stephen Bollenbach could have stepped up but they would have needed to board, and Michael pretty much controlled the board.

Take that managerial stress and add to it the creative loss of Ashman and Katzenberg and you have a big problem in creative management.

Ok, now on to the magic of the parks. Maybe I am a bit younger than some of you but my first trip to WDW was in 1991 and I have to say I find it just as magical now as then. I am more aware of course of the reality as opposed to the fantasy but I will continue to go. There are things done I don’t like (a big empty Wonders of Life pavilion) and there are things done I do like (more interactive dark rides) but such is life.

 

[Galahad]

Disney seems to go in cycles between creative leadership and business-based leadership. Eisner was the former,

You really think so?