So Iran doesn't have a nuclear program either...

[Charade]

The more background info on this NIE I am exposed to, the greater my concerns are on the authors of this NIE.

Specifically

-Dr. Tom Fingar (who just 4 months ago published a report stating his serious concerns about Iran's advanced nuclear program). He was very skeptical of the intelligence on WMD prior. Fair enough. Is he now compensating for this? In any event, his background and expertise is China (not Iran). Career FSO (State Dept).

Kenneth Brill- Pres. Clinton's ambassador to Cyprus. Consistently undermined current administration's policies on non-proliferation at every opportunity....to the point of being let go by Colin Powell at one point.....yet hired back.... Career FSO (State Dept).

and then there's Vann Van Diepen- This guy has been unabashedly trying to get the US govt. to accept Iran's "right" to enich uranium for the last 5 years. I grudgingly admire his skill.......but deplore his

It is fair to note that none of these gentlemen are supporters of the currrent administration.

As should be obvious from my previous posts , I am a supporter of the current administration. The primary authors of this NIE are not. Is this coincidence or does this suggest a partisan political objective?

Further, since when do these Intelligence agencies decide US policy? Essentially, that is what they are trying to do here IMO.

Regardless of which side of the spectrum you argue from, can you honestly say that govt bureaucrats first undermining and now seeking to change US policy instead of informing policy makers is a good thing? I do not. There is a word for this (which I know the meaning very well). I will not say it, as I do not think enough info is known yet about this latest intelligence mess.

This is beyond dangerous and I am amazed (in a very very bad way) at the number of people who see this NIE as a good thing

Is this still insulting? (sarcasm hehe)

This will fall of deaf ears.

 

[Charade]

Let's revisit this thread in a couple of years (after Billary is "selected" President) and see what the reaction is to "IRAN HAS NUKES!!!" all over the world headlines.

 

[Mr Man]

Poor George Bush. Everybody's got it in for him. Everybody's lying to him. Everybody's giving him misinformation. And on and on and on. Make up your mind: Is George Bush a strong, decisive leader and driving the turnip truck? Or is the mindless puppet sitting in the backseat? Which is it? Either he's responsible for the mess or he isn't.

It looks to me like the problem is specific to our bloated inefficient intelligence apparatus and the bureaucrats running them.

Btw, does it ever occur to people like you that one can love their country, be patriotic, wish nothing but the best for the US and still despise Bush. If these 5 years have taught us anything, it wasn't the Bush bashers who pushed the misinformation that led to the Iraq. It was his political in-crowd who cherrypicked what they wanted and fabricated what they didn't have to fulfill their dream of invading Iraq.

To people "like me", I assume you mean proud citizens of the US hehe. I have no problem w/dissent at all. Given that we live in the land of the free home of the brave, there is an expectation that there will be dissenting views. However, that is your individual right. Govt. service is different. None of these guys are elected are they? Are we ignoring a basic part of US Civics here? Bureacrats shuffle paper and implement policies as directed by the political leadership. Period.

And are you accusing Dr. Tom Fingar, Kenneth Brill, Vann Van Diepen of deliberatly lying about Iran's nuclear capabililties and putting this country's security at risk? Why? Because they don't kiss Bush's ***? Is that it?

No, I do not think there is any evidence of lying that has been made public. However, there is a large body of evidence of political in-fighting in numerous govt. agencies during this administration based purely on partisan politics when it comes to policies. These guys are perfect examples of it. And yes, it is putting lives in danger. Just a thought, this NIE was formally requested by 5 senators (D) and then authored by 3 Democrats primarily....

Do I think the answer is a purge of all Democrats from this Administration? Not at all. I do think there needs to be a stringent & agressive Code of Conduct put into place and that right quick to stop this. I seem to recall "appearance of impropriety" being a rallying call for those on the left in times past. Does the left still feel the same way?

Yanno, I heard the same BS sentiments 5 years ago from the ones who got everything wrong about Iraq. Only then, those on my side of the aisle were accused of hating Bush so much, we wanted to see Americans come home in body bags. Well guess what: We were right, you were wrong and you can look in the mirror if you want to know who's really responsible for the body bags.

Actually, Iraq is headed in the right direction. You are uncomfortable with this because you did not support it.

Regards,

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

It looks to me like the problem is specific to our bloated inefficient intelligence apparatus and the bureaucrats running them.




To people "like me", I assume you mean proud citizens of the US hehe. I have no problem w/dissent at all. Given that we live in the land of the free home of the brave, there is an expectation that there will be dissenting views. However, that is your individual right. Govt. service is different. None of these guys are elected are they? Are we ignoring a basic part of US Civics here? Bureacrats shuffle paper and implement policies as directed by the political leadership. Period.



No, I do not think there is any evidence of lying that has been made public. However, there is a large body of evidence of political in-fighting in numerous govt. agencies during this administration based purely on partisan politics when it comes to policies. These guys are perfect examples of it. And yes, it is putting lives in danger. Just a thought, this NIE was formally requested by 5 senators (D) and then authored by 3 Democrats primarily....

Do I think the answer is a purge of all Democrats from this Administration? Not at all. I do think there needs to be a stringent & agressive Code of Conduct put into place and that right quick to stop this. I seem to recall "appearance of impropriety" being a rallying call for those on the left in times past. Does the left still feel the same way?



Actually, Iraq is headed in the right direction. You are uncomfortable with this because you did not support it.

Regards,

Excellent points.

Some here still think our President is responsible for the body bags, not the terrorists. They complain about our "Black and White" thinking -- until it comes to Bush bashing -- then some seem very "Black and White" in their bitterness, blaming, and deciding who is right and wrong.

 

[Mr Man]

If you think this is "Curve Ball II", go back and read the story.

Here's the bottom line and this will be the bottom a year from now: George Bush tried to do with Iran what he did with Iraq, he fell flat on his *** doing it, and he torpedoed his own party even more in the process.

This story screams "Bush is a liar". Nothing in this story presents any other possiblity other than Bush was told, last August, the info had changed and he didn't bother following up. He's either a liar or a dangerous incompetent. IMO, he's both.

Or, President Bush got burned in the past on bad intelligence from these "enlightened beings" in US Intelligence & is not planning on having it happen again......which explains the wait while his staff tries to figure out if US Intelligence has done their job......or flubbed it.....like all the other times they have.

 

[salmoneous]

You think Iran is a threat. I agree. And yet, we've just released a report that will make that threat much harder to contain.

You seem to think that this report means that we shouldn't pressure Iran. But that notion is just wrong - nobody here believes it, nor will the rest of the world.

One of the biggest problems we have coordinating efforts to pressure Iran is that we have zero - zip - no credibility after Iraq. Releasing this report is the first step in trying to restore our credibility. As such, it should make it easier, not harder to get folks to work with us.

 

[salmoneous]

the NYT (who never miss an opportunity to publish leaked intelligence from their "fellow travelers" in Govt that puts American lives at risk)

Actually, the NYT frequently voluntarily agrees to not puplish leaked information when told it's important for national security reasons not to. Why would you lie about such a thing?

Um, "Curve Ball II- The sequel" perhaps?

Actually, not at all. If you study further, you'll see the info initially came from one source, and then (unlike Curve Ball) was extensively cross checked and reviewed.

 

[Charade]

So.... Does anyone really believe Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapons program given the fact that ALL nuclear weapons programs in the past have been conducted in secret.

 

[reeeoga]

2 questions:

Why didn't our Intel people know this 2 years ago?

and

What is Irans Nuke program for?

 

[Fitswimmer]

So.... Does anyone really believe Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapons program given the fact that ALL nuclear weapons programs in the past have been conducted in secret.

I'm sure they have plans-but the question to me is not so much whether or not they have plans or a program, but how far along they are in achieving their goals. The administration had been leading us to believe that they were just about to start lobbing nukes into Israel, and what we learned this week was that might not have been the case.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

You seem to think that this report means that we shouldn't pressure Iran. But that notion is just wrong - nobody here believes it, nor will the rest of the world.

President Sarkozy, Chancellor Merkel and Karel De Gucht all went on record yesterday that they're still completely on board in continuing the sanctions. Guess the only thing the NIE report has the potential to kill is Bush/Cheney's neocon tough guy WWIII silly talk...

 

[bsnyder]

President Sarkozy, Chancellor Merkel and Karel De Gucht all went on record yesterday that they're still completely on board in continuing the sanctions. Guess the only thing the NIE report has the potential to kill is Bush/Cheney's neocon tough guy WWIII silly talk...

Do you have a link, to their on the record statements?

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Do you have a link, to their on the record statements?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/world/middleeast/07iran.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

 

[profdsny]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/world/middleeast/07iran.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

Wait, I thought some people here thought the NYT was all liberal lies. Can't have it both ways.

This is more general lies from Bush and company, as always. I feel sorry for Dana Perino because she seems like a nice person, but has to get up in front of cameras ever day and try to defend the nonsense she is given from the back office.
If Iran had a program, maybe they did, maybe they didn't, (and why aren't they allowed to have one?) they have stopped it, 4 years ago for whatever reason. To say that they are still dangerous is more drum beating for no reason. Bush and Cheney are like two drunks in a dive bar looking to pick a fight with anyone they can. Want to bet they turn their anger on Chavez next and start seeing nuclear weapons there?

I know for many this point is over the top, but I wouldn't be surprised if they start some crap before next years election and then somehow insist that we can't elect someone else now in the midst of all out war, and they have to stay in power.

 

[LakeAriel]

Wait, I thought some people here thought the NYT was all liberal lies. Can't have it both ways.

This is more general lies from Bush and company, as always. I feel sorry for Dana Perino because she seems like a nice person, but has to get up in front of cameras ever day and try to defend the nonsense she is given from the back office.
If Iran had a program, maybe they did, maybe they didn't, (and why aren't they allowed to have one?) they have stopped it, 4 years ago for whatever reason. To say that they are still dangerous is more drum beating for no reason. Bush and Cheney are like two drunks in a dive bar looking to pick a fight with anyone they can. Want to bet they turn their anger on Chavez next and start seeing nuclear weapons there?

I know for many this point is over the top, but I wouldn't be surprised if they start some crap before next years election and then somehow insist that we can't elect someone else now in the midst of all out war, and they have to stay in power.

Yep, That's what Guiliani tried to claim. Didn't work though thank God.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Wait, I thought some people here thought the NYT was all liberal lies. Can't have it both ways.

This is more general lies from Bush and company, as always. I feel sorry for Dana Perino because she seems like a nice person, but has to get up in front of cameras ever day and try to defend the nonsense she is given from the back office.
If Iran had a program, maybe they did, maybe they didn't, (and why aren't they allowed to have one?) they have stopped it, 4 years ago for whatever reason. To say that they are still dangerous is more drum beating for no reason. Bush and Cheney are like two drunks in a dive bar looking to pick a fight with anyone they can. Want to bet they turn their anger on Chavez next and start seeing nuclear weapons there?

I know for many this point is over the top, but I wouldn't be surprised if they start some crap before next years election and then somehow insist that we can't elect someone else now in the midst of all out war, and they have to stay in power.

Sorry if Bush and Cheney are picking fights with your buddies.

And your last paragraph is based on????????

 

[Fitswimmer]

Sorry if Bush and Cheney are picking fights with your buddies.

And your last paragraph is based on????????

Can you please explain why everyone who doesn't agree with Bush and Cheney are automatically assumed to be devotees of Chavez and Imadinnerjacket???

Sorry, Joe-but that routine is getting really old. People can and do dislike BOTH Bush and Chavez and BOTH Bush and Imadinnerjacket. They might also feel that Chavez and Imadinnerjacket are worse dangers than Bush-and still not agree with Bush.

Lots of people hold nuanced positions. Not everyone views the world in strict terms of This Guy is ALL Good and That Guy is ALL Bad.

 

[bsnyder]

Lots of people hold nuanced positions. Not everyone views the world in strict terms of This Guy is ALL Good and That Guy is ALL Bad.

So where's the nuance when it comes to George W. Bush? Seems like for a lot of folks on this board (including you) that "This Guy is ALL Bad."

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

The argument Bet was making was that because of the NIE report, we would lose the support of our European Allies in our efforts to continue sanctions and, I guess, that everyone would simply normalize relations with Iran and go on their merry ways. Most of us knew that that simply wouldn't be the case. As far as Russia and China, they were always on the fence, and there were no guarantees that they would have ever complied. It appears that Condi's got some work ahead of her. Dealing with the realities of the world, without the benefit of ginned up intelligence reports is hard, but that's why she makes the big bucks.

 

[profdsny]

Sorry if Bush and Cheney are picking fights with your buddies.

What the bleep is that supposed to mean?
The fact that I have a world view and you can't see past Bush' nose doesn't necessarily make anyone else my 'buddies'.