So angry I could bust!! (Vent)

[disykat]

I read the link. It doesn't say help with editing is "unauthorized aide."

 

[LisaR]

Oh my yes that would be an honor code violation at every college I attended or worked for

The only honor codes I have ever read are in regard to cheating. I am not saying other codes don't exist but the ones I have read have not made a single reference to someone proof reading your paper. I think every school has a system in place to run a paper through to make sure it wasn't plagiarized but that is much different than having someone edit your paper. There is most certainly a line that could be crossed between an editor and someone that ends up rewriting major sections of your paper. That would violate a code at most colleges. But turning in a big paper without having someone proof it for you would be insane, IMO.


My son is 14 and writing is a major source of contention between us. He seems to be under the impression that JK Rowling and John Grisham sit down to the computer, write their stories, publish their book, and make millions. The word editor never enters my son's mind. He thinks they do it all on their own, on the first take, and that simply isn't true.

 

[MrsJackSparrow4Life]

What's wrong? At my college, and I am sure many others, it would be considered an honor code violation to have a third party edit a paper.

Well at my college they had it set up where you had to take your papers into the writing lab and have other students (usually grad students) edit your paper at least once before you turn them in. If you didn't have your appointment slip signed by one of them then you automatically got an F.

I would have my mom and Uncle edit it after the student edit just because they were much better at catching spelling and grammar mistakes than students.

Having someone look over your work is always a good thing (in school and in work) and any school that thinks editing is an honor code violation is messed up IMO.

 

[Magpie]

Maybe we need to define what "editing" is?

In my children's school they frequently assign "peer editors". That means the kids pair off with each other, swap papers, and are then coached through correcting grammar, spelling and highlighting content errors (or unclear/confusing writing) and encouraged to make specific suggestions for improvement. They are NOT allowed to rewrite each other's papers.

Each child then takes their peer edited paper and writes a final draft, which is what the teacher gets.

When there are no "peer editors" assigned, students are still encouraged to get someone (a friend or family member) to check over their work before they hand it in. Typos happen to everyone and they're hard to spot in your own work.

I really don't see how any school could consider this "cheating". Writing isn't something that happens in a vacuum. Finding yourself an editor is showing good sense and a commitment to producing quality work.

 

[Sanchez]

I read the link. It doesn't say help with editing is "unauthorized aide."

Not sure why you are confused.

Cheating is the act of wrongfully using or taking the ideas or work of another in order to gain an unfair advantage. It includes, but is not limited to: (1) the act of plagiarism; (2) the acts of giving unauthorized aid to another student or receiving unauthorized aid from another person on tests, quizzes, assignments or examinations

The highlighted areas seem to cover this. Again, it depends on whether this college has specifically authorized editorial assistance on papers. They may have created such an exception.

Not every rule, statute or regulation needs to specifically detail every possible violation. I would think that the college's honor committee has specifically addressed this issue. I do not know how W&M specifically deals with this issue.

I can tell you that at my college and law school aid of this type would have resulted in expulsion. Again, schools may take different approaches to this issue but I think it unwise to make a blanket statement that college students are foolish of they do not seek third party editorial assistance. That assistance, depending on that school's honor code enforcement policy, could be considered cheating.

 

[MrsJackSparrow4Life]

Wow, with all the snowflake name calling around here and all the talk about teen and kids need to be so grown up, I am surprised at the suggestions of having someone else look over your work. Gee are they supposed to call mommy in when they are taking a test, to go over their work and check for spelling and grammar violations.?

Not agreeing or disagreeing, just noting the obvious.

I don't see how having someone edit your paper would be the same as having them take a test for you. Even rich and famous authors have editors and I don't think anyone considers that to be a bad thing.

Besides most teachers do give some leeway when it comes to spelling and grammar mistakes on tests, since you do not have time to polish the work.

 

[dis-happy]

Found a link for W&M:

http://www.wm.edu/as/wrc/forstudents/whattoexpect/index.php


It sounds like pretty extensive help to me...



What you can expect from the WRC:

Individual help with your writing or oral communication questions – performance anxiety, writer’s block, research methods, organization, revision strategies, proper format, etc.

Assistance at any stage, from generating ideas to polishing a final product, and with any type of writing or oral communication.

A compatible, competent consultant.

Guidance in building and improving your own writing, editing, and oral communication skills.

 

[mhsjax]

I don't see how having someone edit your paper would be the same as having them take a test for you. Even rich and famous authors have editors and I don't think anyone considers that to be a bad thing.

Besides most teachers do give some leeway when it comes to spelling and grammar mistakes on tests, since you do not have time to polish the work.

No, I didn't mean have them take the test for you, but if grammar and spelling count, then you can't have mommy come in and edit it for you.

And yes we expect editors before publishing a book, so if rich and famous have editors for their mistakes, why can't we cut some slack for teens in a biology class?

 

[Magpie]

Not sure why you are confused.



The highlighted areas seem to cover this. Again, it depends on whether this college has specifically authorized editorial assistance on papers. They may have created such an exception.

Not every rule, statute or regulation needs to specifically detail every possible violation. I would think that the college's honor committee has specifically addressed this issue. I do not know how W&M specifically deals with this issue.

I can tell you that at my college and law school aid of this type would have resulted in expulsion. Again, schools may take different approaches to this issue but I think it unwise to make a blanket statement that college students are foolish of they do not seek third party editorial assistance. That assistance, depending on that school's honor code enforcement policy, could be considered cheating.

I would not consider having a friend/roommate/parent/spouse read over a paper for grammatical and style errors as being "unauthorized aid". I'd think that would apply instead to situations where students are getting other people to write their papers for them, or borrowing old papers and plagiarizing them, or using other people's bibliographies instead of doing their own research.

Were you supposed to write your papers in secret? Were you even allowed to discuss the topic and bounce ideas off of other students?

 

[Sanchez]

I really don't see how any school could consider this "cheating". Writing isn't something that happens in a vacuum. Finding yourself an editor is showing good sense and a commitment to producing quality work.

SMU does. http://smu.edu/alec/howtoworkwithtutors.asp

Texas Tech School of Law. http://www.law.ttu.edu/acp/academics/honorcode/

There are countless other schools that have the same provisions. In fact, I just found this on the W&M web site:

Papers: As with exams and quizzes, I encourage you to discuss your papers with your classmates and anyone else, for that matter. The crucial thing to remember is that you must give citations for ideas that are not your own, whether or not those ideas have been written down somewhere. If your roommate comes up with a brilliant example and you use it in your paper, then you must cite him or her in a footnote. You may not receive help in the form of allowing another person to write or edit your paper. At all times, the written work you hand in must be your own.

http://www.wm.edu/offices/deanofstu...entsandfaculty/faculty/honorclimate/index.php

 

[Magpie]

SMU does. http://smu.edu/alec/howtoworkwithtutors.asp

Texas Tech School of Law. http://www.law.ttu.edu/acp/academics/honorcode/

There are countless other schools that have the same provisions. In fact, I just found this on the W&M web site:

http://www.wm.edu/offices/deanofstu...entsandfaculty/faculty/honorclimate/index.php

Well, that certainly is clear. I'm glad our schools don't work like that! And never did, not even when I was in university. Editing has always been a big part of the learning process, around here.

 

[dis-happy]

Were you supposed to write your papers in secret? Were you even allowed to discuss the topic and bounce ideas off of other students?

OMG, tell your kids to be careful about bouncing ideas off other students! My DD was taking a Chinese poetry class and had to write a paper. Another student asked her what she was doing for her topic and my DD told her. It was quite ingenious, actually, comparing the Chinese poems to some more modern day musical lyrics. Anyway, fellow student swiped the idea to a great extent (used a different artist's lyrics). Afterwards, the prof. came to my dd and asked if she "borrowed" the paper idea from the other student!!!! My dd had to defend herself. In the end she rec'd an A on the paper and the other student rec'd a lower grade. However, lesson learned the hard way re. paper ideas.

 

[Becky2005]

Were you supposed to write your papers in secret? Were you even allowed to discuss the topic and bounce ideas off of other students?

Hmmm....basically when I was in school in the stone age, yep. This is how it was done. You were given a topic and you were supposed to come up with the paper on your own (that is unless it was a group project).

I completely get the editing part but I also can see where that could be considered cheating depending on how it is done, etc...

I know in speech class we did have other students read our papers and edit. I mostly remember this because I did the "kinda" the student corrected it to "kind of" and silly me thought no, I say it "kinda" and put it back that way. kind of was correct. On the other hand, if I hadn't made the mistake, I probably wouldn't remember it so well.

Other than that, nope we wrote the papers, were expected to do the entire thing and proof read it ourselves and turn it in. That was a LONG time ago though before even calculators were allowed in middle school and no one had ever heard of a computer too much -- much less have them in the classrooms.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

OMG, tell your kids to be careful about bouncing ideas off other students! My DD was taking a Chinese poetry class and had to write a paper. Another student asked her what she was doing for her topic and my DD told her. It was quite ingenious, actually, comparing the Chinese poems to some more modern day musical lyrics. Anyway, fellow student swiped the idea to a great extent (used a different artist's lyrics). Afterwards, the prof. came to my dd and asked if she "borrowed" the paper idea from the other student!!!! My dd had to defend herself. In the end she rec'd an A on the paper and the other student rec'd a lower grade. However, lesson learned the hard way re. paper ideas.

Wow, that sucks. I am glad it worked out and thanks for that passing that along, geesh.

 

[Magpie]

OMG, tell your kids to be careful about bouncing ideas off other students! My DD was taking a Chinese poetry class and had to write a paper. Another student asked her what she was doing for her topic and my DD told her. It was quite ingenious, actually, comparing the Chinese poems to some more modern day musical lyrics. Anyway, fellow student swiped the idea to a great extent (used a different artist's lyrics). Afterwards, the prof. came to my dd and asked if she "borrowed" the paper idea from the other student!!!! My dd had to defend herself. In the end she rec'd an A on the paper and the other student rec'd a lower grade. However, lesson learned the hard way re. paper ideas.

Hmm... true, you've just reminded me that I kept most of my "idea-bouncing" conversations to my friends, not my classmates.

I didn't have any close friends in my department. But I did have a number of post-grad friends who were very well educated and smart, and who helped a lot when it came to needing someone to talk through a concept with in order to pin it down.

Thanks for the warning!

 

[MrsJackSparrow4Life]

No, I didn't mean have them take the test for you, but if grammar and spelling count, then you can't have mommy come in and edit it for you.

And yes we expect editors before publishing a book, so if rich and famous have editors for their mistakes, why can't we cut some slack for teens in a biology class?

If this was a test I would see giving her more slack but it wasn't, it was an assignment that she could have had someone look over before turning it in (unless of course she goes to one of these crazy schools who think editing is a bad thing ).

 

[golfgal]

I find it difficult to believe that ANY college would prohibit having someone proofread a paper ANY English teacher will tell you that it is prudent to have someone proofread a paper, part of which is editing. You edit if they missed a comma, had a misspelled word, if a sentence is awkward, etc. I guess I am confused WHY this is an issue

 

[sparklynails23]

OP, here not under a rock!! LOL! Just at school late, getting ready for your children, who I hope are not as rude as some of you!! First of all, my DD is an "A" student never less than a 95, in all Pre-AP classes and a part of the Duke TIP Program. I know, you are disappointed. Yes, I do agree that spelling, capitalization and grammar are important. I was just shocked that the very first graded assignment would come home blood red. But, I would guess that none of you perfect people are ever shocked or have ever had a bad day!! Also, another disappointment to you will be that I actually spoke with the other teacher today and apologized. Yes, oh my, I was having a bad day!! I know again something none of you ever have. I am glad that you all are so perfect. Go ahead and flame all you want. It is actually quite entertaining!

You're probably worried that she's screwing up her grade point average already. I know, my son just started high school, is super smart, and he and I are over analyzing everything to make sure he gets into the best college. I hope we get into a more comfortable rhythm, soon.

 

[DenMig]

I know I'm arriving late here, but wouldn't spelling be VERY important in chemistry?

Isn't CO2 completely different than C2O?

And, if your grammar and punctuation is off, couldn't steps in the scientific method be misconstrued or misunderstood?

Since you mentioned chemistry I am going to assume you are referring to my posts. I don't know if you skimmed my posts quickly but you are misreading my posts. I never said grammar and spelling weren't important. On labs, tests, quizzes, and projects they are penalized as they are part of my assessment. On homework I point mistakes in grammar or spelling out but don't penalize them points. They are still receiving feedback to enhance their learning as research has indicated that is a crucial step in the learning process. If their grammar is to the point that it is misunderstood then they would lose points on the answer. C2O vs CO2 is not spelling. That is a totally different formula, so that would not receive credit. If they wrote carbon dioxidie or something like that on homework I would correct the spelling and they wouldn't lose the point. On the test they would get credit for the right compound but lose the point that is established for spelling.

Long story short...........I don't mix assessments, but at the end of the day they are assessed for their chemistry knowledge and for their writing skills.

I"m sure I'll still get more flames. It Dis what it Dis. How do you like my grammar now ?

 

[kaytieeldr]

I think your grammar in that last paragraph is pretty punny