Sigma DP1 for those considering a DSLR

[webshark3]

After 2 years at Disney with a DSLR, I'll be buying the Sigma DP1 when it's released (May/June hopefully). It's the first "DLSR" packed into a compact body. It's APS-C sensor is three layers for optimal color reproduction. That + Disney will = some amazing shots.

http://sigma-dp1.com/

The only real downsides: Cost estimated at $799-$1000US. It also has a fixed 28mm lens. Good news is, at least it's true wide angle.

 

[Master Mason]

After 2 years at Disney with a DSLR, I'll be buying the Sigma DP1 when it's released (May/June hopefully). It's the first "DLSR" packed into a compact body. It's APS-C sensor is three layers for optimal color reproduction. That + Disney will = some amazing shots.

http://sigma-dp1.com/

The only real downsides: Cost estimated at $799-$1000US. It also has a fixed 28mm lens. Good news is, at least it's true wide angle.

Well, it looks like a nice camera, but it isn't a dSLR. SLR's allow you to change lenses and the take pictures differently, you actually look through the lens to focus and frame.

If it is what you want and it fits your needs, the you should jump on it, but it would never do what I want my camera to do.

 

[handicap18]

Its ONLY a 28mm lens camera. No zoom (outside of 3x digital zoom) and you can't change lenses. Its not a dSLR, it is a compact camera with the sensor size of a dSLR. Though it is slightly smaller than the current dSLR sensors (Canon 1.6x and Nikon/Pentax/Sony 1.5x) at 1.7x (16.6mm x 1.7 = 28mm).

Sure you'd get some great pictures at Disney, but it would be almost usless at AK because it is only a 28mm lens. You'd have to do a TON of cropping and then the images would be very degraded.

For that price,,, I'll pass.

 

[Groucho]

I am very fascinated by Sigma's Foveon sensor, but my understanding is that they're still getting more noise than more traditional sensor designs. Its sharpness is unparalleled, though.

I think their concept is great, however it'll never sell well (partly due to no one knowing who Sigma is, no one knowing where to buy one, and the very high price tag), and I would fear that other manufacturers could point to it and say "see, consumers don't want a large-sensor PnS."

What I'd really like to see is someone like Fuji produce a long-zoom like their S9100 and stick a DSLR-sized sensor in there, with or without IS. You'd have the PnS benefits with quality that should match a DSLR with a single "walk around" lens, and little to no worry about dust blobs, either.

If not that, then maybe Olympus could take that darn 4/3rds sensor and put it in a PnS-type long-zoom body, it's smaller than the usual DSLR APS sensors so wouldn't require quite as big of a chassis, and would still be much higher quality than a typical PnS.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

SLR's allow you to change lenses and the take pictures differently, you actually look through the lens to focus and frame.

Technically, you can make a SLR that doesn't have interchangeable lenses. It's the viewing through the lens bit that makes it an SLR. I can't think of why someone would want to build an SLR with a fixed lens, but you never know.

 

[boBQuincy]

I really like the idea of a P&S with a large sensor but can't see one at that price and without a zoom lens actually being a success.
If they added a tri-elmar type of lens (maybe a 28 - 50 - 85) it could be an affordable Leica substitute and I would have my credit card out!

 

[webshark3]

Ok all. SOme of you missed me putting DSLR in quotes. Of course it's not a DSLR. However, it uses the same sensor and guts as the SD14 DSLR. If your into LONG zooms, then it's not for you. However, I noticed 90% of my shots at Disney were in the 28mm range. I don't do zoom at AK, I'm more interested in photos of my kids who tend to be really close up. I can photograph animals at my local zoo. I hate changing leses at Disney, have have really stuck to the kit lens.

As fore noise, the SD14 samples are on par with Nikon and Canon. A lot has to do with how you process them.

As for zoom, obviously long zoom is out of the question, but 3x digital zoom will still give you a far superior stills to a small sensor P&S with 3x optical zoom. A small crop from my 300D (6mp) is far superior to my 6mp P&S.

 

[webshark3]

I really like the idea of a P&S with a large sensor but can't see one at that price and without a zoom lens actually being a success.
If they added a tri-elmar type of lens (maybe a 28 - 50 - 85) it could be an affordable Leica substitute and I would have my credit card out!

You want the Epson digital rangefinder, just pull out your credit card and a second mortgage on your house.... lol

 

[webshark3]

Technically, you can make a SLR that doesn't have interchangeable lenses. It's the viewing through the lens bit that makes it an SLR. I can't think of why someone would want to build an SLR with a fixed lens, but you never know.

No mirror, but the Sony R1 fits that build.

 

[webshark3]

I really like the idea of a P&S with a large sensor but can't see one at that price

Price out a Canon 30D and 10-22mm lens, and the Sigma price/size gets attractive real quick.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

I'd still prefer the Leica M8 for a small, primarily wide, simple camera. There is a slight price difference (some $4,000 plus lenses), but who wants to quibble over a few bucks?

 

[boBQuincy]

Price out a Canon 30D and 10-22mm lens, and the Sigma price/size gets attractive real quick.

I have a 30D and a 10-22 and you are correct, it gets pricy real quick. The deal with that is that for another few hundred I can also have a midrange lens, and for a few hundred more a long lens.
The Sigma is very attractive due to it's size but I really want more lens options than it offers. Epson's RD-1 would be ok even at the high price if it worked better, the focus mechanism is not that good from what I read. Auto focus is fine with me anyway, the rangefinder doesn't add anything that I would want.

My guess is Sigma will see the potential of a P&S with a real sensor and quickly fit a short zoom or vari-focal on the camera, then take my $$$.

 

[Master Mason]

Ok all. SOme of you missed me putting DSLR in quotes. Of course it's not a DSLR. However, it uses the same sensor and guts as the SD14 DSLR. If your into LONG zooms, then it's not for you. However, I noticed 90% of my shots at Disney were in the 28mm range. I don't do zoom at AK, I'm more interested in photos of my kids who tend to be really close up. I can photograph animals at my local zoo. I hate changing leses at Disney, have have really stuck to the kit lens.

As fore noise, the SD14 samples are on par with Nikon and Canon. A lot has to do with how you process them.

As for zoom, obviously long zoom is out of the question, but 3x digital zoom will still give you a far superior stills to a small sensor P&S with 3x optical zoom. A small crop from my 300D (6mp) is far superior to my 6mp P&S.

As I said, if it fits your needs and budget, then you should jump all over it. However, it isn't what I am looking for.

As for the digital zoom, to me that is a worthless feature, If I want to crop a photo, I will do so in a PP program, but that's just me.

 

[Groucho]

Another thing is that a 30D and a 10-22mm lens will probably hold their value better than the Sigma, which is such a niche product that I can't imagine that used ones will sell easily for anything close to new prices.

Furthermore, comparing to a 10-22 lens is apples and oranges... compare it to a DSLR with a 28mm F4 lens.

The sensor is actually smaller than most DSLR sensors... 20.7 x 13.8mm, versus 23.5 x 15.7mm in my DSLR, and most are either the same or just a mm or so in either direction. Still, I don't doubt that their unique technology will win out in sharpness, but probably lose (easily) when comparing noise levels. Your final photos will be somewhere around 4-5mp (I'm too lazy to do the math at the moment).

It's certainly a unique beast. But there are some weird specs. Slowest shutter speed of 15 seconds? That's pretty crummy. And you use a dial to focus manually? Bleah.

 

[webshark3]

Another thing is that a 30D and a 10-22mm lens will probably hold their value better than the Sigma, which is such a niche product that I can't imagine that used ones will sell easily for anything close to new prices.

Furthermore, comparing to a 10-22 lens is apples and oranges... compare it to a DSLR with a 28mm F4 lens.

The sensor is actually smaller than most DSLR sensors... 20.7 x 13.8mm, versus 23.5 x 15.7mm in my DSLR, and most are either the same or just a mm or so in either direction. Still, I don't doubt that their unique technology will win out in sharpness, but probably lose (easily) when comparing noise levels. Your final photos will be somewhere around 4-5mp (I'm too lazy to do the math at the moment).

It's certainly a unique beast. But there are some weird specs. Slowest shutter speed of 15 seconds? That's pretty crummy. And you use a dial to focus manually? Bleah.

Manual focus via a dial is very desirable. As for the 15 sec limit, I think Foveon still has issues with Noise with longer exposures. Believe it or not, Niche cameras become cult cameras real quick. Look at pricing on the old Ricoh GR-D, or Sony DSC-60u. Years later, and still retail type pricing most of the time.

The new Foveon sensor is really a 14mp. It's hard to explain, but it competes at a 10-12mp range, not 4-5. You can look for direct comparisons on dpreview of the SD14 versus the Canon 5D (Full Frame Sensor). The SD14 is pretty amazing. And I'm a Canon owner.

 

[Groucho]

I can't see how focus with a dial is preferable to focus with a ring.

And I do not buy into the whole "14mp" thing. I understand perfectly why they claim that, but it's bogus. Three b/w 4mp images combined still mean one 4mp image. That's be like old-fashioned three-strip Technicolor movie film suddenly claiming that it was actually 105mm film, not 35mm.

Actually, I remember someone with a very early scanner, it was connected to his Amiga and was basically a b/w camera that sat about a foot over a flat surface. You'd rotate a color wheel in front of the lens and take three "scans" of whatever you're trying to capture and it would then combine the RGB channels.

I certainly will not debate the potential superiority of distinct color channels or of the Foveon sensor in general. But suddenly claiming that a 4mp-size image is something other than that is disingenuous - or "just marketing" to put it another way.

Ultimately, what we're left with with this camera is less-than-entry-level PnS features (no zoom, no movie mode, 15 seconds max shutter, etc) with what is probably an extremely nice sensor. It's the answer to the question no one was asking.

Now, give it the features of your average 3x zoom PnS and price it closer to a higher-end PnS (say, $500, maybe $600), and they might have a chance of selling a few. (I'd like to see one of the more mainstream DSLR manufacturers make such a camera.) I think this will barely sell any models... but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

 

[webshark3]

Got to look a little closer. It will have a movie mode. Also, with FULL manual control, and extended 1600 (3200) iso. How can it be lacking P&S features? lol

Given that's it's a P&S, with no room for a manual focus ring, a manual focus dial is the next best thing.

I'm sorry you don't believe in the 3-layer design. I personally don't own one yet, but the results speak for themselves (See Dpreview samples and user comparisons). The SD14 EASILY competes with 10-12mp DSLRs. Don't you get caught up on the whole mp war. I have a 2mp Sony that kicks @@@ on my 6mp P&S. Their claim is not bogus if you look at the definition of a pixel.

But who cares about pixels if the end result looks great. You're right, it's audience is limited, it'll definitely be a niche camera. But a very necessary niche. I'm tired of sensors getting smaller and smaller.

I can't see how focus with a dial is preferable to focus with a ring.

And I do not buy into the whole "14mp" thing. I understand perfectly why they claim that, but it's bogus. Three b/w 4mp images combined still mean one 4mp image. That's be like old-fashioned three-strip Technicolor movie film suddenly claiming that it was actually 105mm film, not 35mm.

Actually, I remember someone with a very early scanner, it was connected to his Amiga and was basically a b/w camera that sat about a foot over a flat surface. You'd rotate a color wheel in front of the lens and take three "scans" of whatever you're trying to capture and it would then combine the RGB channels.

I certainly will not debate the potential superiority of distinct color channels or of the Foveon sensor in general. But suddenly claiming that a 4mp-size image is something other than that is disingenuous - or "just marketing" to put it another way.

Ultimately, what we're left with with this camera is less-than-entry-level PnS features (no zoom, no movie mode, 15 seconds max shutter, etc) with what is probably an extremely nice sensor. It's the answer to the question no one was asking.

Now, give it the features of your average 3x zoom PnS and price it closer to a higher-end PnS (say, $500, maybe $600), and they might have a chance of selling a few. (I'd like to see one of the more mainstream DSLR manufacturers make such a camera.) I think this will barely sell any models... but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

 

[Groucho]

I do believe in the merits of separate RGB receptors.

But I don't buy that three monochromatic 4mp pictures combined to make one single chromatic 4mp picture is the same thing as 14mp.

Again, the three-strip Technicolor comparison - three-strip Technicolor gives astonishingly vibrant colors and a very distinctive look, but it's still a 35mm image. And your resulting jpg (or format of choice) will be 4mp of resolution. It's the final result that matters.

The big PnS feature that's lacking is zoom of any level (and we all know that digital zoom just plain doesn't count.)

Hey, I'm not saying that the camera won't produce terrific images - it probably will. But it has severe limitations, as well, and I don't think the difference in quality compared to a DSLR is worth it compared to all that you give up.

 

[Anewman]

I'm sorry you don't believe in the 3-layer design. I personally don't own one yet, but the results speak for themselves (See Dpreview samples and user comparisons). The SD14 EASILY competes with 10-12mp DSLRs. Don't you get caught up on the whole mp war.

I agree with Groucho on this, yes we believe in the 3-layer design. We believe that it produces AMAZING 4mp images that is.

Isnt Sigma the one getting caught up in the whole MP war thing by RECOUNTING pixels on this sensor?

If all you say about competing with 10mp DSLRS is true why would they worry about the MP count?
"But who cares about pixels if the end result looks great.", sounds like SIGMA cares or else we would all agree that it is 4mp as the image produced is 4mp

As for the 15 sec limit, I think Foveon still has issues with Noise with longer exposures.

I dont think the noise issues are limited to longer exposures.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

But I don't buy that three monochromatic 4mp pictures combined to make one single chromatic 4mp picture is the same thing as 14mp.

Doesn't the K100D take 1 monochromatic 4mp picture and 2 monochromatic 1mp pictures and call that a six megapixel picture? I was under the impression that the advertised mp resolution of a digital camera counted each pixel as one pixel disregarding the fact that each is only a single color. The combined image is then made by using an algorithm to guess what the full color of each of those pixels is supposed to be.

Now it's true that a traditional 6mp SLR really has 6 million discrete monochromatic pixels as opposed to 4 million tri-color pixels. I'm not sure how you compare the two. I'd recommend comparisons based on actual resolving power and color accuracy rather than megapixel counts because the 6mp isn't really 6 color megapixels and the 4 mp is definitely not 14 megapixels.