Should Green Bay Packers organization lowered US Flag at half mast for Reggie White

[dmadman43]

Green Bay Packers President Bob Harlan ordered the US flag be flown at half-mast at Lambeau Field (or Lambert Field, as some ex presidential candidates refer to it) upon hearing of Reggie White's death. Now, according to the US Flag Code the American flag only can be flown at half-staff upon a directive of either the president or governor and on Memorial Day. The code also specifies who qualifies for the honor. Obviously football players are not on the list. Now, to add to this, Harlan also lowered the flag to honor Brett Favre's father when he passed away. But to most insulting and trivializing thing to me is is that Harlan does not lower the flag to half-staff at Lambeau Field when Wisconsin loses one of its favorite sons or daughters in Iraq or Afghanistan, even though the governor may order the flag flown at half-staff at govt offices in such a case. Why can't Harlan make his way out to the flag pole for those in service of our country chasing terrorists, but he can for someone that used to chase quarterbacks?

And let me add one more thing, while it's not the Packer's fault, the flag was not lowered at half staff for Tillman, and the NFL basically did nothing for Tillman league wide, except to find Jake Plummer $5,000 for wearing the number "40" on his helmet in honor of his former roommate.

To me, lowering the flag for White trivializes the issue of flying the flag at half staff and insults veterans and those that should be honored. While I acknowledge White was a beloved player for Packer, Eagle and Panther fans, and a class act all the way around, his death does not merit flying the flag a half staff.

Agree? Disagree?

 

[DukeStreetKing]

I don't agree with lowering the American flag in this instance. Perhaps they could lower the team flag instead.

 

[WDSearcher]

I think it's a nice gesture for Reggie White's family to see, as it was for Favre's family. While US flag code states that only the president can declare when the flag is flown at half-staff, that is technically only for federal buildings, parks and landmarks. If, for example, my father passed away, I could fly the flag in my yard at half-staff, if I so chose, without penalty.

If Bob Harlan had asked for all flags in Green Bay to be flown half-staff, or asked that the Governor declare that all flags in Wisconsin be flown half-staff, then he would have been out of line. But to fly the flag at half-staff at Lambeau doesn't seem like a big thing to me. It's a way to honor someone who was important to that organization.

As for whether or not the NFL honored Tillman after his death, you might want to check this out:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/7633065

 

[TerriP]

I don't agree with lowering the American flag in this instance. Perhaps they could lower the team flag instead.

I think this is a great idea. Lower your team flag, but not the American flag.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

And let me add one more thing, while it's not the Packer's fault, the flag was not lowered at half staff for Tillman, and the NFL basically did nothing for Tillman league wide, except to find Jake Plummer $5,000 for wearing the number "40" on his helmet in honor of his former roommate.

You need to check your facts. All players wore 40 on their helmet for one weekend. Plummer continued after. I agree he shouldn't have been fined, that was a bad move for the NFL. But there was a league-wide remembrance day for Pat Tillman.

 

[dmadman43]

You need to check your facts. All players wore 40 on their helmet for one weekend. Plummer continued after. I agree he shouldn't have been fined, that was a bad move for the NFL. But there was a league-wide remembrance day for Pat Tillman.

Following WDSearcher's logic, did the league order the US Flags lowered to half staff in honor of Tillman? I mean, if anyone deserves the flag being flown at half staff, it's Tillman, not White.

I still stick by my statement that by comparison, the league did nothing. Hell, MLB retired the number 52 in honor of Jackie Robinson, and has that number displayed in all it's stadiums. Tillman get's one weekend for his sacrifice?

 

[dmadman43]

I think it's a nice gesture for Reggie White's family to see, as it was for Favre's family. While US flag code states that only the president can declare when the flag is flown at half-staff, that is technically only for federal buildings, parks and landmarks. If, for example, my father passed away, I could fly the flag in my yard at half-staff, if I so chose, without penalty.

If Bob Harlan had asked for all flags in Green Bay to be flown half-staff, or asked that the Governor declare that all flags in Wisconsin be flown half-staff, then he would have been out of line. But to fly the flag at half-staff at Lambeau doesn't seem like a big thing to me. It's a way to honor someone who was important to that organization.

As for whether or not the NFL honored Tillman after his death, you might want to check this out:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/7633065

Well, of course there is no penalty. You are just dishonoring the flag and not in accordance with proper flag etiquette in doing so.

Here is the exact code of conduct for flying flags at half-staff

The flag, when flown at half-staff, should be first hoisted to the peak for an instant and then lowered to the half-staff position. The flag should be again raised to the peak before it is lowered for the day. On Memorial Day the flag should be displayed at half-staff until noon only, then raised to the top of the staff. By order of the President, the flag shall be flown at half-staff upon the death of principal figures of the United States Government and the Governor of a State, territory, or possession, as a mark of respect to their memory. In the event of the death of other officials or foreign dignitaries, the flag is to be displayed at half-staff according to Presidential instructions or orders, or in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law. In the event of the death of a present or former official of the government of any State, territory, or possession of the United States, the Governor of that State, territory, or possession may proclaim that the National flag shall be flown at half-staff. The flag shall be flown at half-staff 30 days from the death of the President or a former President; 10 days from the day of death of the Vice President, the Chief Justice or a retired Chief Justice of the United States, or the Speaker of the House of Representatives; from the day of death until interment of an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, a Secretary of an executive or military department, a former Vice President, or the Governor of a State, territory, or possession; and on the day of death and the following day for a Member of Congress. The flag shall be flown at half-staff on Peace Officers Memorial Day, unless that day is also Armed Forces Day. As used in this subsection -

the term "half-staff" means the position of the flag when it is one-half the distance between the top and bottom of the staff;

the term "executive or military department" means any agency listed under sections 101 and 102 of title 5, United States Code; and

the term "Member of Congress" means a Senator, a Representative, a Delegate, or the Resident Commissioner from Puerto Rico.

So, sure you can do what you want with your flag. It would just be disrespectful to the flag and to those deserving of the half staff honor to do so.

 

[WDSearcher]

I don't think the LEAGUE requested half-staff flags for Reggie White, either. That was Bob Harlan, prez of the Packers. So it's not really fair to compare the two.

As for what the LEAGUE did for Tillman, since it doesn't appear that you read the link:

"The National Football League and Arizona Cardinals will honor Pat Tillman, who was killed in military combat this spring in the Middle East, with several tributes during the 2004 season and by teaming with the Pat Tillman Foundation.

The NFL and the Cardinals are closely working with the Tillman family and the Pat Tillman Foundation to salute the fallen hero during the 2004 season and beyond.

Players on all 32 teams will wear a No. 40 decal -- Tillman's Cardinals uniform number -- on their helmets during the second regular-season weekend of games (Sept. 19-20). The Cardinals will wear the decal all season. The Cardinals will play their home opener Sept. 19 against the New England Patriots. Tillman also will be honored posthumously by a special halftime tribute that will recognize other Arizonans who have sacrificed their lives in the service of their country.

The NFL and Cardinals also are working to generate exposure and funds for the Pat Tillman Foundation. The Foundation seeks to carry forward his legacy by inspiring and supporting others striving to promote positive change in themselves and the world around them.

The NFL and NFL Players Association will generate funds by donating their proceeds from sales of Tillman's jerseys manufactured by Reebok to the Pat Tillman Foundation. The jerseys will be sold at Sun Devil Stadium (home of the Cardinals), azcardinals.com, NFLShop.com, and military bases around the world. A specially designed hologram will be affixed to the jerseys to verify their authenticity.

Marie Tillman was the guest of NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue at the recent Pro Football Hall of Fame induction ceremony in Canton, Ohio. The Hall of Fame also unveiled a special exhibit entitled "Football and America: The NFL Responds During Times of National Crises." It salutes Tillman and the other NFL players who were killed in action while serving with our country's military since World War II. Tillman's Cardinals' jersey and Ranger uniform are on display in the exhibit, accompanied by an interview taped shortly after Sept. 11, 2001, during which he expressed his desire to honor those Americans killed and to serve his country.

The Cardinals also have announced several additional ways in which they will salute their fallen hero:

• The club will name the plaza surrounding the perimeter of the new Cardinals stadium, scheduled to open in 2006, as the Pat Tillman Freedom Plaza.

• 
  The Cardinals and Tillman's alma mater, Arizona State, have announced the formation of the Pat Tillman Memorial Scholarship Award."

 

[dmadman43]

In my original statement I conceded that Harlan, nor the Packers are responsible for how the Cardinals or the league chose to honor Tillman. I was simply pointing out Harlan's obvious screwed up priorities. He won't lower the flag for Wisconsin veterans killed in action (many of them whom I'm sure are Packer fans), but he will lower it for someone that chased quarterbacks for a living?

I'm well aware of what the NFL has done for Tillman. They could have done more. For example, I think they should have the 40 yard line at every stadium painted red white and blue so future generations can remember the sacrifice Tillman made when they see the 40 yard line. What Tillman did vs what White did are not even in the same league.

 

[WDSearcher]

Well, of course there is no penalty. You are just dishonoring the flag and not in accordance with proper flag etiquette in doing so. So, sure you can do what you want with your flag. It would just be disrespectful to the flag and to those deserving of the half staff honor to do so.

This is a silly argument to be having. The exact code of flying flags at half-staff does not mention private flags that fly at private businesses or homes. This is because the official code is for federal use only.

When McDonalds' owner died suddenly, all McDonald's flags flew at half-staff for a day or two. Same happened at Wendy's when Dave Thomas died. Same happened at Disney (although not in the parks) when Frank Wells died. None of those instances went against flag code because flag code has no juristiction over private-use flags.

I fail to see how I am dishonoring others if I fly my own personal flag at half-staff because my retired Air Force father passed away. Nor do I see how I am dishonoring others if I, as a business owner, elect to fly my US flag at half-staff because the president of my company -- ex-military or not -- has just died. It's a very visible sign of mourning and respect. And if you call the US Protocol Office, they will agree. If it were an improper use of the flag, it would be regulated as such.

To say that only certain Americans "deserve" a flag at half-staff is based on opinion. It's customary only for military or state leaders, but pretty much anyone who votes and takes an interest in their country deserves it.

 

[dmadman43]

This is a silly argument to be having. The exact code of flying flags at half-staff does not mention private flags that fly at private businesses or homes. This is because the official code is for federal use only.

When McDonalds' owner died suddenly, all McDonald's flags flew at half-staff for a day or two. Same happened at Wendy's when Dave Thomas died. Same happened at Disney (although not in the parks) when Frank Wells died. None of those instances went against flag code because flag code has no juristiction over private-use flags.

I fail to see how I am dishonoring others if I fly my own personal flag at half-staff because my retired Air Force father passed away. Nor do I see how I am dishonoring others if I, as a business owner, elect to fly my US flag at half-staff because the president of my company -- ex-military or not -- has just died. It's a very visible sign of mourning and respect. And if you call the US Protocol Office, they will agree. If it were an improper use of the flag, it would be regulated as such.

To say that only certain Americans "deserve" a flag at half-staff is based on opinion. It's customary only for military or state leaders, but pretty much anyone who votes and takes an interest in their country deserves it.

There are no regulations, only guidelines and suggested codes of conduct, so your argument regarding regulations is moot. Nevertheless, I feel the same about McDonald's and Wendy's. It's disrespectful to what the flag represents.

 

[Rokkitsci]

My thoughts exactly. Flying your own flag at half-mast is purely a personal matter.

 

[WDSearcher]

What Tillman did vs what White did are not even in the same league.

No, it's not. And I don't think I ever said it was. Harlan did this out of respect for White's family, not to slam every soldier who's died. I wasn't aware that Harlan had been asked to lower the flag for fallen Wisconsin soldiers. I don't think that the Governor's flag is flown half-staff every time a Wisconsin soldier dies. If it is, then someone should mention that to every single private business in the state. I know that it's not done in Florida. Or any other state, that I'm aware.

Remember too, that Tillman wanted no publicity for himself when he left the NFL and joined the Rangers. It's possible that, perhaps, Tillman's family requested that there be no extraordinary notice made of him past what has been done. Their reasoning -- and his -- as I recall, was that he didn't deserve any more or less recognition than anyone else who left a secure job and their family to join up and serve his country.

 

[puggymom]

All flags were at half staff Sunday at the NY Jets game at the Meadowlands.

 

[dmadman43]

No, it's not. And I don't think I ever said it was. Harlan did this out of respect for White's family, not to slam every soldier who's died. I wasn't aware that Harlan had been asked to lower the flag for fallen Wisconsin soldiers. I don't think that the Governor's flag is flown half-staff every time a Wisconsin soldier dies. If it is, then someone should mention that to every single private business in the state. I know that it's not done in Florida. Or any other state, that I'm aware.

The Governor apparently does.
http://www.wisgov.state.wi.us/mediaroom.asp

And Harlan himself admits that he does not follow suit

 

[Doctor P]

I think that what the Packers did was ignorant. When called on it, Harlan should have apologized rather than rationalized. If there is a way to prosecute them for anything, I hope that is done. What jerks.

 

[CajunDixie]

I don't think the flag should have been lowered to half-staff for Reggie White. If we start lowering the flag for our favorite sports figure...where does it end? Do we lower the flag for Ray Charles because he was a great musician? Do we lower it for Rodney Dangerfield, comedian? Or Julia Child, chef? Tony Randall, actor? Estee Lauder, cosmetics queen? Jack Paar, talk show pioneer? Bob Keeshan, better known as Captain Kangaroo? Spc. Clarence Adams III? Lance Cpl. Timothy R. Creager? Pfc. Christopher D. Mabry? Just because we recognize a famous name does not make them deserving of a half-staff flag!


Q:* Why do we need laws to tell us how to display the flag?* Shouldn't every person have the right to display the flag however they wish, so long as it is done with proper respect?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is a very good question, and I'd like to try and answer it for you.* It has to do with symbols that represent a thought or idea. * One example of a symbol is a WEDDING RING that a couple exchanges* when they get married.* That ring is a symbol of their unity, it tells the world that they are two people who have made commitments to each other.** Custom tells us that wedding rings are displayed a certain way...worn on the ring finger of the left hand...the hand closest to the heart.

Even if a ring doesn't LOOK like a wedding ring, if it is worn on the ring finger of the left hand most people recognize it as such because of the way it is displayed.* Similarly, a wedding ring worn on any other finger is generally not recognized as a wedding ring because of the way it is displayed. * Custom tells us there is a right way and a wrong way to wear a wedding ring to communicate the right message to others.* And the message is found in the way it is DISPLAYED to others.

This is why it is so important to understand the rules and customs explained in the Flag Code for properly displaying the flag.* A properly displayed flag tells the world that:

* You are proud to be an American.
* You care enough to learn how to display the flag properly.
* You are showing the flag the respect it deserves.

 

[dmadman43]

My thoughts exactly. Flying your own flag at half-mast is purely a personal matter.

What about wearing the flag as a robe? Or on my ***? Is that a personal matter, too?

 

[dmadman43]

I don't think the flag should have been lowered to half-staff for Reggie White. If we start lowering the flag for our favorite sports figure...where does it end? Do we lower the flag for Ray Charles because he was a great musician? Do we lower it for Rodney Dangerfield, comedian? Or Julia Child, chef? Tony Randall, actor? Estee Lauder, cosmetics queen? Jack Paar, talk show pioneer? Bob Keeshan, better known as Captain Kangaroo? Spc. Clarence Adams III? Lance Cpl. Timothy R. Creager? Pfc. Christopher D. Mabry? Just because we recognize a famous name does not make them deserving of a half-staff flag!


Q:* Why do we need laws to tell us how to display the flag?* Shouldn't every person have the right to display the flag however they wish, so long as it is done with proper respect?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is a very good question, and I'd like to try and answer it for you.* It has to do with symbols that represent a thought or idea. * One example of a symbol is a WEDDING RING that a couple exchanges* when they get married.* That ring is a symbol of their unity, it tells the world that they are two people who have made commitments to each other.** Custom tells us that wedding rings are displayed a certain way...worn on the ring finger of the left hand...the hand closest to the heart.

Even if a ring doesn't LOOK like a wedding ring, if it is worn on the ring finger of the left hand most people recognize it as such because of the way it is displayed.* Similarly, a wedding ring worn on any other finger is generally not recognized as a wedding ring because of the way it is displayed. * Custom tells us there is a right way and a wrong way to wear a wedding ring to communicate the right message to others.* And the message is found in the way it is DISPLAYED to others.

This is why it is so important to understand the rules and customs explained in the Flag Code for properly displaying the flag.* A properly displayed flag tells the world that:

* You are proud to be an American.
* You care enough to learn how to display the flag properly.
* You are showing the flag the respect it deserves.

Excellent! Well said.

And, if the governor of the state wants to honor the lives of the soldiers from that state, that is his perogitive as governor and he is will within the Flag Code to do so. The Flag Code does not allow for random citizens or private business to determine who gets the honor of flying the flag at half-staff. Whenever I see the flag flown at half-staff I always wonder what important US citizen passed away. Dave Thomas or Ray Kroc do not qualify, IMHO.

 

[JPN4265]

I'm sorry he died, but he is only a football player for god sake's. Do not lower the American flag to half staff for him. Team flag, okay, American flag,no!