Should GM be bailed out?

[4mickey2]

It all just stinks..

 

[F4disneyfan]

There are so many jobs and pensions tied to the auto industry. It can't be a good thing to see GM go under. The government has thrown money away on the airline industry a couple of times. I have to think that bailing out the auto industry will save "Main Street" Americans their jobs. Of course I'd like to see a comphrensive plan..and how exactly the money would be spent. Do we even know how this Wall Street bail out is being parcelled out?
It doesn't seem fair to bail out Wall Street..but let the people of this country who build our automobiles fall by the way side. I'd also like to see a tarrif on imported autos, making them more expensive to buy. Giving the American auto maker an edge with American auto buyers. How about making it so that the parts for these auto's also have to be made in AMERICA.

The problem with all parts being made in America be it Canada or the US they all sub out parts to the lowest bidder for the most part so that would be impossible to have happen.

 

[F4disneyfan]

I say since we spent the money to bail out AIG (even though they didn't deserve it in my opinon), we should definitly bail out GM etc. How can we buy American and support American made products if we lose these great workforce industries like GM? Besides I have been waiting for almost 8 years for the new Camero to come out!!!

The new Camaro is going to be an awesome car and it is built in Oshawa Ontario in the Impala plant.

 

[MBMacs]

The only way I would support a Big 3 Bailout would be if the Upper management was all removed, the employees and the taxpayers became the owners, Unions gave concessions and they re format the current dealer model. Otherwise, may the best companies win. Treat them like they treated Tucker.

 

[auntie]

The problem with all parts being made in America be it Canada or the US they all sub out parts to the lowest bidder for the most part so that would be impossible to have happen.

Add to this..when you have your car repaired after a collision..some insurance companies will REFUSE to use original new parts in the repairs. Geico for instance insists that we use aftermarket parts.

 

[bigdisneydaddy]

The only way I would support a Big 3 Bailout would be if the Upper management was all removed, the employees and the taxpayers became the owners, Unions gave concessions and they re format the current dealer model. Otherwise, may the best companies win. Treat them like they treated Tucker.

The unions have given huge concessions for years. The plants are full of new employees that are not UAW and not covered under the UAW contracts.

The common misconception is that the UAW has not made concessions, the truth is that the UAW has conceeded itself into a looming extinction.

What GM has not done is funded their ongoing liability, one of the previous posters made a comment that they thought they were required to. While it should have happened, unfortunately it didnt. What GM has done is made promises to its employees (in an era where they had to just to get people to work there) and then not fund that obligation, hoping for some miracle to happen in the future, ala social security.
This is not to say that the UAW is full of choir boys. The UAW came to be because of the horrible working conditions that existed in the plants. They were unsafe deplorable working conditions. GM had a history of overzealous low level managers trying to make a name for themselves on the backs of the line workers.

I grew up in the shadow of GM, I have family and friends that are current and past GM workers, I dont know anyone who got rich working for GM. I do know plenty of people that busted their humps for a decent wage !


BTW Macs, thats not directed at you, I just used the points you made to illustrate the issue.
I have it form a good source that the Pontiac and Saturn division are both on the chopping block so your point about a dealer realignment may be a reality.

 

[Just Beachy]

I would like to know to whom do I address MY "bailout request" letter to, and when should I expect my check?????

President Obama, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington DC. Please, anyone who does this, let us know how that works out for ya, ok? Thanks!

 

[F4disneyfan]

Add to this..when you have your car repaired after a collision..some insurance companies will REFUSE to use original new parts in the repairs. Geico for instance insists that we use aftermarket parts.

Wow that sucks our insurance insists they are all factory NEW replacement parts not ones found from the wreckers or aftermarket parts.

 

[LONE-STAR]

As long as somebody builds a 1 ton 4x4 solid axle diesel for me to buy. Then I wont worry. Which GM does not build. So as long as Ford or Dodge are around I am just fine.

 

[bord1niowa]

I know a large dealership in our area normally sells about 260 cars a month but last month sold 26. So yes, they are hurting, but I still don't think they should be bailed out. Car manufacturing is a business, just like any other. I also think that the unions have kept salaries higher than most in America which of course selfishly brings them more money. It's time they renegotiate ALL salaries from the top down and cut the fat. This is a global economy and if we can't be competitive, then find something else to manufacture as many other companies have done in the past. We just need to get that common sense back into the workplace instead of too many chiefs not making reasonable decisions, if they make any at all. No more of the "let's have a meeting to discuss when we will talk about thinking about doing something to maybe make things run better in the company." I've seen way too much of that!
Bailouts will never end if we give in to anyone asking for them.
Just mho.

 

[bradisgoofy]

..... The UAW came to be because of the horrible working conditions that existed in the plants. They were unsafe deplorable working conditions. GM had a history of overzealous low level managers trying to make a name for themselves on the backs of the line workers.

I grew up in the shadow of GM, I have family and friends that are current and past GM workers, I dont know anyone who got rich working for GM. I do know plenty of people that busted their humps for a decent wage !

Bravo Scott, someone needed to point this out. The unions MADE the middle class. If the big three go under, this will be the beginning of the end of the middle class, in Michigan at least.

BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, I am a United Steelworker, and I work in a steelmill in Michigan where we make steel for the auto industry. Currently we are down to 32 hours a week, since just before Labor Day, down from 52 hours.

 

[DaddyDon]

BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, I am a United Steelworker, and I work in a steelmill in Michigan where we make steel for the auto industry. Currently we are down to 32 hours a week, since just before Labor Day, down from 52 hours.

Bradisgoofy
I feal your pain brother,I work in a non union tire plant,Our hours have been scaled back To 36hrs one week 24 the next.Its more than just one industry that gets hit! and believe me none of us made our bills working part time hours,i cant speak for you i do not budget a 1200 dollar a month loss in wages.I wonder where i can get the goverment to bail me out if this keeps going!!!!

 

[big kahuna1]

It doesn't matter what I think anymore, because those great and mighty rulers ,that just got elected, are going to do what they want to anyway. We don't have leaders anymore, if anyone noticed, we have got a new ruler come Jan.

He did say he was ready to rule over us after he was elected. Not govern, but RULE!

What GM has not done is funded their ongoing liability, one of the previous posters made a comment that they thought they were required to. While it should have happened, unfortunately it didnt. What GM has done is made promises to its employees (in an era where they had to just to get people to work there) and then not fund that obligation, hoping for some miracle to happen in the future, ala social security.

Yeah, but you forgot to mention this retirement funding is also a apart of the union contracts. The Union is not the sole cause of auto industry problems but unfortunately, the reality is they are a fairly big part of the problem. The working conditions excuse was over many, many, many years ago. But, I do not really blame the Union members themselves but the upper management of the Unions. Sometimes they just don't know when to fold the cards at the expense of the union members. Remember the Flight Tower employees? I'll bet they wish they did not follow the advice of their union bosses.

Total Compensation Per Hour, 2007-2008 (includes wages and all benefits):
Big Three automakers — $73.08
Toyota — $48.00
All workers — $28.48


The prospect of concessions from the union came up during a meeting involving executives of Detroit's Big Three auto makers and Democratic Congressional lawmakers on Capitol Hill Thursday. But UAW President Ron Gettelfinger made clear that concessions were out of the question, union lobbyist Alan Reuther said in an interview with Dow Jones Newswires Friday.

Translation: Taxpayers are just supposed to accept the UAW-imposed cost structure as it exists, even though those being bailed out earn $44.60 an hour more in wages and benefits than other working families.

Like I said. If they do not want to re-negotiate...fire em'.

 

[ftwildernessguy]

Hey - I just got an email and my worries are over - I don't need to be in any government bailout. It seems some close friend of mine whom I don't remember was killed in a horrific automobile accident in Nigeria and has listed me as his only heir. I have to send an attorney my bank account number and SSN and he will transfer 20million dollars into my account. He is meeting me at the Newark airport this afternoon. See ya, suckers!!!!

 

[big kahuna1]

Hey - I just got an email and my worries are over - I don't need to be in any government bailout. It seems some close friend of mine whom I don't remember was killed in a horrific automobile accident in Nigeria and has listed me as his only heir. I have to send an attorney my bank account number and SSN and he will transfer 20million dollars into my account. He is meeting me at the Newark airport this afternoon. See ya, suckers!!!!

I have had that same friend die several times now. He must have 9 lives!!!

 

[AuburnJen92]

I have had that same friend die several times now. He must have 9 lives!!!

Maybe your friend is actually a cat and you just didn't notice... Anything is possible on the internet!

 

[bigdisneydaddy]

He did say he was ready to rule over us after he was elected. Not govern, but RULE!




Yeah, but you forgot to mention this retirement funding is also a apart of the union contracts. The Union is not the sole cause of auto industry problems but unfortunately, the reality is they are a fairly big part of the problem. The working conditions excuse was over many, many, many years ago. But, I do not really blame the Union members themselves but the upper management of the Unions. Sometimes they just don't know when to fold the cards at the expense of the union members. Remember the Flight Tower employees? I'll bet they wish they did not follow the advice of their union bosses.

Total Compensation Per Hour, 2007-2008 (includes wages and all benefits):
Big Three automakers — $73.08
Toyota — $48.00
All workers — $28.48


The prospect of concessions from the union came up during a meeting involving executives of Detroit's Big Three auto makers and Democratic Congressional lawmakers on Capitol Hill Thursday. But UAW President Ron Gettelfinger made clear that concessions were out of the question, union lobbyist Alan Reuther said in an interview with Dow Jones Newswires Friday.

Translation: Taxpayers are just supposed to accept the UAW-imposed cost structure as it exists, even though those being bailed out earn $44.60 an hour more in wages and benefits than other working families.

Like I said. If they do not want to re-negotiate...fire em'.

We will have to agree to disagree Steve.

The cost numbers being tossed around are unsubstantiated. Any good statistician can make any numbers say what they want. You might be referring to the Teamsters when you suggest that the union has a hand in the operations of the pension system, to my knowledge the UAW does not at this point direct their retirees pensions.

Just for the record I am not in favor of the bailout.

 

[Boomer1]

As much as I hate opening a newspaper or turning on the evening news lately, I'm just waiting for one of the big oil companies to declare their in trouble and need to be bailed out.

 

[des1954]

The unions have given huge concessions for years. The plants are full of new employees that are not UAW and not covered under the UAW contracts.

I thought Michigan was a "closed-shop" state??? How can the employees NOT be in a union if the plant works under the UAW contract?

I was IBEW for 30+ years at GTE (now Verizon). What pizzed me royally in my last two years of employment (and after the so called merger between GTE & Bell Atlantic) was this.... I was a service rep sitting in Fla making just under $20/hour. As part of my requirement I HAD to answer calls from the old Bell Atlantic region where the service reps made more than double what I made. The old B.A. reps were only able to take calls from their region & not even their entire state! The IBEW addressed this in a contract negotiation just before I retired - but - because Florida is an open-shop state, they got no where.

So my question Scott is this... Is Michigan no longer a closed shop state? When I lived in NYS, if the place you worked for had a union, you HAD to join the union the day you started working.

 

[bigdisneydaddy]

I thought Michigan was a "closed-shop" state??? How can the employees NOT be in a union if the plant works under the UAW contract?

I was IBEW for 30+ years at GTE (now Verizon). What pizzed me royally in my last two years of employment (and after the so called merger between GTE & Bell Atlantic) was this.... I was a service rep sitting in Fla making just under $20/hour. As part of my requirement I HAD to answer calls from the old Bell Atlantic region where the service reps made more than double what I made. The old B.A. reps were only able to take calls from their region & not even their entire state! The IBEW addressed this in a contract negotiation just before I retired - but - because Florida is an open-shop state, they got no where.

So my question Scott is this... Is Michigan no longer a closed shop state? When I lived in NYS, if the place you worked for had a union, you HAD to join the union the day you started working.

I will have to check but I do know several people that work alongside UAW employees that are not union, GM has used contract employees for many years. The common misconception in my union is that you have to belong, you do have the ability to opt out of the IAFF (inetrnational association of fire fighters) in our state, all it requires is one signature.
The IAFF (and others) is also not allowed to spend per capita dues on ANY political support, whatever money they spend has to come from their political action funds which is money donated specifically for that cause or through fund raisers.