School shooting in Parkland, FL

[BrinkofSunshine]

And, sure, states can institute separate gun laws, but that doesn't stop people from crossing state lines.

Exactly. I’ve seen the argument that strict gun laws don’t work citing Chicago as an example, as the south side has a gun violence problem... without addressing the fact that it borders Indiana, which has weak gun laws.

 

[MamaBelle4]

While I agree with you is someone making them stay and do tv/news interviews right now?

I wondered that too. It's possible they can't get home yet if roads are still blocked. If so, trauma counseling would be more beneficial than news interviews. I would think there would be an officer on the scene who would be qualified.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Exactly. I’ve seen the argument that strict gun laws don’t work citing Chicago as an example, as the south side has a gun violence problem... without addressing the fact that it borders Indiana, which has weak gun laws.

But, if we're assuming gun control works, we'd have to assume even a mild inconvenience is still an inconvenience.

 

[hopemax]

Perhaps guns would be less desirable if they had to be painted pink and bedazzled end to end.

At this point, it's as good an idea as any cause I got nothin'. Really just at a loss. Empty. Hopeless.

I'm hoping we might still have some sort of tipping point, although I don't think this will be the catalyst. Or the next one, or the one after that, or the one after that. If you look at another "hot button" issue, change came pretty quickly (as these things go) following Proposition 8 in regards to same sex marriage. More quickly than older adults likely would have predicted. All of these kids that are growing up in this reality and seeing the current generation of legislators failing to even be willing to have conversations. Once they become adults, and elected to public office will they move swiftly and in more agreement than what we are seeing now? There could even be a possibility that they will be even more strict than what people calling for "reasonable discussion" today are asking for, and look to adopt more of the International approach. I suppose at that point the other side would consider these long discussed reasonable discussions, but may find that ship had sailed. It wouldn't be the first time people who started out fighting for incremental change and getting the door shut in their face, eventually realized that the answer was to go for the whole enchilada. We may not be able to see it now, but how well did people predict the last 20 years?

 

[Domo]

Perhaps guns would be less desirable if they had to be painted pink and bedazzled end to end.

At this point, it's as good an idea as any cause I got nothin'. Really just at a loss. Empty. Hopeless.

Interesting you should say that...

Here in the UK, AR-15 weapons are banned. You CAN however buy IMITATION firearms of pretty much anything - airsoft

But unless you have a licence, it must be at least 50% a bright colour, such as fluorescent pink or blue.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

Exactly. I’ve seen the argument that strict gun laws don’t work citing Chicago as an example, as the south side has a gun violence problem... without addressing the fact that it borders Indiana, which has weak gun laws.

Agree ... Hawaii also has strict gun laws, and they work better there ... because they don't border a state with weak controls.

I haven't caught up since going to sleep ... have we had the talking point about "Since nothing will prevent every single one of these occurrences, we shouldn't try to prevent any of them?" yet?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

More info on the shooter coming out.

The picture painted is grim. Clearly a troubled young man from his Instagram posts and behavior at school and at home.

Abusive, killing animals, threatening people, obsessed with weapons...

Yet, still allowed to have guns and knives by those around him.

This is a multi-faceted problem.

It sounds like school adminstrators did what they could, as he was expelled, yet, he was attending another school.

He goes from family to family with his guns after his parents died.

Many people who knew him predicted something like this would happen with him.

Yet he was free to do what he did.

Let's be careful, we don't want to label him.

"School officials said Cruz was attending another school in Broward County after his expulsion.

Cruz's mother Lynda Cruz died of pneumonia on November 1 neighbors, friends and family members said, according to the Sun Sentinel. Cruz and her husband, who died of a heart attack several years ago, adopted Nikolas and his biological brother, Zachary, after the couple moved from Long Island in New York to Broward County.

The boys were left in the care of a family friend after their mother died, family member Barbara Kumbatovich, of Long Island, said.

Unhappy there, Nikolas Cruz asked to move in with a friend's family in northwest Broward. The family agreed and Cruz moved in around Thanksgiving. According to the family's lawyer, who did not identify them, they knew that Cruz owned the AR-15 but made him keep it locked up in a cabinet. He did have the key, however.

Jim Lewis said the family is devastated and didn't see this coming. They are cooperating with authorities, he said.

Broward County Mayor Beam Furr said during an interview with CNN that the shooter was getting treatment at a mental health clinic for a while, but that he hadn't been back to the clinic for more than a year.

'It wasn't like there wasn't concern for him,' Furr said."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-shooters-guns-violence-hurting-animals.html

 

[JaxDad]

I own a shotgun, but I am certainly open to gun control solutions.

However, putting that aside, there are societal issues that are contributing factors, if not the primary reasons for so many of these incidents. The same media that preaches gun control pushes gun violence on us constantly. The news sensationalizes violence. Movies and video games are incredibly violent, and I think desensitizing. Some of the more popular music genres are just as bad. Even something like professional sports. A couple NBA players recently went to the other team's locker room to pick a fight. An NFL player tried to climb into the stands to get to ignorant fans. Why? It's just a game. But apparently it is okay, and people see that. You can't let them disrespect you.

And then you tie this together with social media, with punks posing and playing the gangster. Why do they do that? There is some reason that it appeals to them and apparently to their circles. In some cases, they are imitating celebrities. I feel there is a root cause in there that we are missing.

Mental illness is also a factor, obviously. But why? What societal pressures are causing an apparent rise in mental health issues? I'm sure there is no easy answer there either, but let's not ignore it. And the potential effects of the medications seem as bad as the illnesses themselves.

Finally, we have definitely lost focus on the basics of family, spirituality, and civil behavior. Heck, it even happened on this thread with people mocked for offering thoughts and prayers. Why is that so wrong? Should we just create a hashtag instead? Sadly, I see no easy answers, but we can certainly start working on little things in our own families and communities.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I own a shotgun, but I am certainly open to gun control solutions.

However, putting that aside, there are societal issues that are contributing factors, if not the primary reasons for so many of these incidents. The same media that preaches gun control pushes gun violence on us constantly. The news sensationalizes violence. Movies and video games are incredibly violent, and I think desensitizing. Some of the more popular music genres are just as bad. Even something like professional sports. A couple NBA players recently went to the other team's locker room to pick a fight. An NFL player tried to climb into the stands to get to ignorant fans. Why? It's just a game. But apparently it is okay, and people see that. You can't let them disrespect you.

And then you tie this together with social media, with punks posing and playing the gangster. Why do they do that? There is some reason that it appeals to them and apparently to their circles. In some cases, they are imitating celebrities. I feel there is a root cause in there that we are missing.

Mental illness is also a factor, obviously. But why? What societal pressures are causing an apparent rise in mental health issues? I'm sure there is no easy answer there either, but let's not ignore it. And the potential effects of the medications seem as bad as the illnesses themselves.

Finally, we have definitely lost focus on the basics of family, spirituality, and civil behavior. Heck, it even happened on this thread with people mocked for offering thoughts and prayers. Why is that so wrong? Should we just create a hashtag instead? Sadly, I see no easy answers, but we can certainly start working on little things in our own families and communities.

I agree with all of this.

Ironically, there are news reports this morning of Kim Kardashian callling for Congress to do something about gun control. She's a part of the problem in our society.

 

[Hikergirl]

I disagree. This kid in Florida LEGALLY purchased his a year ago. Had it been illegal to sell these weapons after Sandy Hook, those 17 children taken today may still be with us.

Look, I do not pretend to have all the answers (it is pretty clear that I don't), but I know that saying "Nah, that won't work" but doing nothing over and over again after each shooting benefits no one.

And, sure, states can institute separate gun laws, but that doesn't stop people from crossing state lines.

And banning a specific type of gun doesn't stop people from using a different type, or illegally obtaining the one that is banned.
You can't claim to do one thing just to "do something", and then say well doing that other thing that can be done won't work because........

 

[MamaBelle4]

And banning a specific type of gun doesn't stop people from using a different type, or illegally obtaining the one that is banned.
You can't claim to do one thing just to "do something", and then say well doing that other thing that can be done won't work because........

A hand gun or a rifle wouldn't have done the damage as quickly as this weapon did. He wouldn't have had time to.

When did I say anything anyone suggested wouldn't work?

 

[FlightlessDuck]

The Onion is usually not only snarky, but ridiculous. But this article, which gets rewritten each time there is a school shooting, is 100% on point:

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

 

[rickybobby]

The laws were changed many years ago by society, thinking that too many people were being kept against their will in mental institutions. As a result, tons of facilities were shut down, and now folks that need to be living behind locked doors for their own safety as well as the safety of others, are walking the streets. And so many stories of "we knew he/she was off, but could do nothing until he/she commits a crime", come off as hollow.

 

[mnrose]

It all just makes me incredibly sad. Then incredibly angry that so many people throw up their hands and say "nothing to be done." We can TRY. Maybe it won't work, but if we do nothing, it sure as hell won't change.

 

[Hikergirl]

A hand gun or a rifle wouldn't have done the damage as quickly as this weapon did. He wouldn't have had time to.

When did I say anything anyone suggested wouldn't work?

The Ar-15 is a rifle, and like Gumbo pointed out there are other rifles that would do the exact same thing as it.
It is a semi-auto (as is probably 90% of the rifles out there), and all you need is a large capacity mag, or even have many small capacity mags ready. They take a second to pop out and pop in. So, you can't say that anything else wouldn't have done the damage as quickly because that simply isn't true.


Your last sentence sounds like you are saying sure, we can do things but that doesn't mean they will work, yet you are arguing with people who are saying (what you want to do) may not work either. I was just pointing that out.

 

[Bianca and Bernard]

Oh, I wasn't saying you wanted to change the 2nd amendment. I was saying in a general sense that we aren't going to change it so we need to focus on other safety measures.

The shooter is said to have shot through the door glass from the hallway and then shot at the kids that were huddled by the teacher's desk. YMMV, but I would much rather my child find an immediate exterior exit and run away than hide behind a desk. And I suppose there could be 2 shooters like in Columbine, but even in that case the shooters stayed together inside the building. I'm sure there's been one because there's been so many, but I can't recall a school shooter ever waiting outside to shoot children as they exited to the outside (not the interior). The federal govt. has the money to fix the structure of schools to make them safer.

I'm all for armed guards in schools too. The safety officers in my daughter's school aren't armed. That's not even helpful in a situation like this. The federal govt. has the money to fund this too.

Anything we can do outside of the 2nd amendment is doable.

RE bolded: Jonesboro, AK; Austin, TX (Whitman); San Diego, CA (Cleveland Elementary); Charleston, MA (sniper); Los Angeles (49th St Elementary); Littleton, CO (Deer Creek Middle)

There was over 200 homicides in my metro last year (majority on the other side of the state line). Most from gang related or repeat offenders-now gangs are not usually known for obtaining guns 100% legally anyways. It doesn't even phase me anymore as sad as that is because nearly everyday it's on the news that so and so shot so and so in a part of the metro. For whatever reason road rage is an issue too and I don't know why but it plagues a specific area on I-35 and people have shot each other or just one person shooting at another car and to another poster's point it's how it works here unfortunately that the local news latches on in a different way when so and so was killed in the nicer or at least less crime-stricken area. And to that same previous person's point shootings in general (not just school shootings or mass shootings) happen often enough. But your review on the ban of assault rifles only pays attention to a certain and more likely small percentage of incidents that occur each year.

It's like that here in Jax. We see a shooting on the North/West sides almost daily. People go "meh" because it's in that part of town. Most are gang related, some are domestic.


-----------------------------------------

Looking at the Wiki pages for school shootings, there are a lot that are only school shootings because the shootings took place in the vicinity of a school. Many would be classified as workplace shootings, if they had taken place at an auto plant or post office (for example: Los Angeles, CA [UCLA 2016]; Cleveland Mississippi [Delta State College]; St Louis, Missouri [Stevens Institute of Business and Arts]; Huntsville, AL [University of Alabama 2010].

Domestic issues (example: San Bernardino [North Park Elementary]; Shepherstown, WV [Shepherd University]

Also, there are gang related shootings, that took place outside the school, but are classified as a school shooting (Phoenix, AZ [Cesar Chavez High]; Memphis, TN [Hamilton High]; Aurora, CO [Aurora Central High]...as a side note, that is the school I graduated from many many many years ago.

There are some listed that I don't see as being school shootings at all, other than the placement. The 13 year old shot by the Beltway Sniper and the security guard in Cambridge who was shot by the Boston Marathon bombers.

--------------------------------------

ABC news reports 18 shootings in the first 45 days of 2018, from Everytown Research. I bolded the ones that should be considered as school shootings, IMO. I don't count the suicides, accidental firings or drive by shootings after fights under that category.

1/3 St. Johns, MI East Olive Elementary (suicide, man was trying for suicide by cop in school parking lot, no intent to injure others)
1/4 Seattle, WA New Start High (gun fired into admin office, no injury)
1/10 Sierra Vista, AZ Coronado Elemtary (suicide in bathroom, no intent to injure others)
1/10 San Bernardino, CA CA State University (Gun fired off campus struck school but not aimed towards the school, no injury)
1/10 Denison TX Grayson College (gun fired accidentally by student thinking gun was unloaded training weapon, no injury)
1/15 Marshall TX Wiley College (gun fired in driveby, no injury)
1/20 Winston-Salem, NC Wake Forest (attack on persons after a fight at a party, injury or death)
1/22 Italy, TX Italy High (attack on persons, injury or death)
1/22 Gentilly, LA NET Charter High (attack on persons in drive by, injury or death)
1/23 Benton, KY Marshall County High (attack on persons, injury or death)
1/25 Mobile, AL Murphy High (gun fired during a fight, no injury)
1/26 Dearborn, MI Dearborn High (gun fired in drive by after a fight, no injury)
1/31 Philly, PA Lincoln High (attack on persons, fight in parking lot, injury or death)
2/1 LA, CA Salvador B Castro Middle (gun fired unintentionally in class, result injury or death)
2/5 Oxon Hill, MD Oxon Hill High (attack on persons, fight in parking lot, possible robbery, injury or death)
2/5 Maplewood, MN Harmony Learning Center (gun fired, gun was holstered and a student pressed the trigger, no injury)
2/8 NY, NY Metropolitan High (gun fired, killed the floor, no injury)
2/14 Parkland, FL Marjory Stoneman Douglas High (attack on others, injury or death)

 

[FlightlessDuck]

The shooter is said to have shot through the door glass from the hallway and then shot at the kids that were huddled by the teacher's desk. YMMV, but I would much rather my child find an immediate exterior exit and run away than hide behind a desk. And I suppose there could be 2 shooters like in Columbine, but even in that case the shooters stayed together inside the building. I'm sure there's been one because there's been so many, but I can't recall a school shooter ever waiting outside to shoot children as they exited to the outside (not the interior). The federal govt. has the money to fix the structure of schools to make them safer.

I'm not a fan of sheltering in place, either.

But the first mass shooting I can think of happened at Grover Cleveland Elementary School in San Diego, CA in 1979. The shooter shot at children on the playground outside. 8 children were wounded and 2 died.

Ten years later, a similar incident took place on Stockton, CA, where children were shot (also at a school called Cleveland Elementary School). 5 children were killed and 32 were injured.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Ten years later, a similar incident took place on Stockton, CA, where children were shot (also at a school called Cleveland Elementary School). 5 children were killed and 32 were injured.

Re: the 1989 shooting...

"Why could Purdy, an alcoholic who had been arrested for such offenses as selling weapons and attempted robbery, walk into a gun shop in Sandy, Oregon, and leave with an AK-47 under his arm?", Time magazine asked. They continued, "The easy availability of weapons like this, which have no purpose other than killing human beings, can all too readily turn the delusions of sick gunmen into tragic nightmares."

Boy, that doesn't sound at all familiar.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

It all just makes me incredibly sad. Then incredibly angry that so many people throw up their hands and say "nothing to be done." We can TRY. Maybe it won't work, but if we do nothing, it sure as hell won't change.

I would like to see something done, too.

But I think we have a lot of problems to tackle.

And it's an uphill battle.

It's not a good start when we can't talk to eachother.

 

[MamaBelle4]

The Ar-15 is a rifle, and like Gumbo pointed out there are other rifles that would do the exact same thing as it.
It is a semi-auto (as is probably 90% of the rifles out there), and all you need is a large capacity mag, or even have many small capacity mags ready. They take a second to pop out and pop in. So, you can't say that anything else wouldn't have done the damage as quickly because that simply isn't true.


Your last sentence sounds like you are saying sure, we can do things but that doesn't mean they will work, yet you are arguing with people who are saying (what you want to do) may not work either. I was just pointing that out.

When I say rifle, I mean, I don't know, a muzzle loader? I know very little about guns, I'm not going to lie or pretend otherwise. I could Google the difference or ask my husband who owns several. When I say "guns like this" I mean precisely that. Guns that have the capability to fire this many shots this quickly have no reason to be in our society. They don't. If you like them for target practice, use something else, if that bums you out but saves dozens of lives, then I can live with that (and anyone should be able to).

And people who are telling me that banning these sorts of weapons "Clearly won't work because of x, y & z" are not offering any alternative solution. Don't tell me what won't work if you know so much more about it than I do, tell me what WILL. If you don't have any ideas, let's try the suggestions on the table because something has to be done.

And let's also not forget in the course of this conversation, that the second amendment protects a "well regulated militia" not any nut job who is 18 and has a driver's license and no priors.

(ETA the "you" above is generalized "you" and not directed at anyone in particular.)