Run Over By An EVC

[marsrunner]

And have to say, I do not consider it driving a car on a sidewalk. I consider them "motorized legs". It is callous to dismiss what a difficulty it is to be confined to a wheelchair or ECV, when I guarantee you that a majority of the riders (and we know "the type" who are *not* included in this) would much rather be walking. So try to be a little sympathetic to the difficulty and inconvenience tied up in that experience.

I don't mean to be snippy here if you weren't addressing me, but since you used only part of my post as a quote I'll reiterate that I have EVERY idea what kind of difficulty is involved in using these things. I lived with my mother's MS for ten years, the last five years of her life I was the only one helping her after my father passed away. I know exactly what it is like even try to get into one of these things, having to use a Hoyer lift to get onto and off of it and into bed and onto the toilet. I know what its like to have to call EMS in the middle of the night because my mother fell in the bathroom and was unable to get up herself (she didn't ask for my help in the first place because she was such a fiercely independent woman) and I was unable to get her up because she was such a large woman.
Well, I could go on and on, but I won't. Needless to say, I understand and sympathize. It does not change my opinion about the topic, however. My right to accomodation stops at the point where it becomes dangerous to others. I'm sure there are people who jump in front of EVCs...and they aren't the ones I'm saying need to be protected. They deserve to be run over if they do such a thing. However, someone having to dive out of the way or yank a small child out of the way of an oncoming motorized vehicle does not deserve it, and I shouldn't have to exercise more than the usual amount of vigilance to walk around a theme park. I wouldn't run into someone on purpose, and neither should these carts. If they go too fast, then that is something that should be addressed. You can't expect everyone who drives one of these things to be careful with them, so that decision should be taken out of their hands.

 

[Clotho]

My right to accomodation stops at the point where it becomes dangerous to others. I'm sure there are people who jump in front of EVCs...and they aren't the ones I'm saying need to be protected. They deserve to be run over if they do such a thing. However, someone having to dive out of the way or yank a small child out of the way of an oncoming motorized vehicle does not deserve it, and I shouldn't have to exercise more than the usual amount of vigilance to walk around a theme park. I wouldn't run into someone on purpose, and neither should these carts. If they go too fast, then that is something that should be addressed. You can't expect everyone who drives one of these things to be careful with them, so that decision should be taken out of their hands.

Yes, we completely agree with one another on this point. No question.

 

[rrkman]

While I respect your view on this, I do keep an eye out for all kinds of other people. Not just ECVs. Wheelchairs, strollers, children, people who stop in the middle of the street. When I'm on an ECV and when I'm not. I always have, especially since someone's child ran in front of me on my ECV, I stopped suddenly, almost lost balance because of the sudden stop (I have my own ECV) and then got yelled at by the parent because "You people always run over children you're so dangerous!". So now, I watch.

But adopting your philosophy, why should I have to watch? Why can't I just enjoy WDW when I'm going around and wander around looking at everything?

I really don't think there will ever be a solution to this problem short of taking out all of the ECVs. That 1% of ECV drivers that we seem to be talking about has RUINED things for the other 99%. You would not believe some of the things that have been said to me, some of the names I have been called, and the parents that want to yell at me for daring drive while their child is running around Main Street. I can only see this from my own perspective and it probably is a good choice for me to bow out of this.

And I completely agree with and understand what you are saying.....for every single rude and 'me first' ECV person, there are probably 2, 3, 4 (maybe more) times that as far as the same type of person walking around the park. I also think that I didn't say what I meant...everyone should be aware of their surroundings and please believe me when I say that I spend a heck of a lot more time watching my kids (so they don't get run over or run over someone else) than I spend looking at the sites. And, one of the main reasons I understand your point of view is that I have only been to WDW once without a stroller...and I have certainly experienced the parent that looks at me like I did something wrong because their kid ran out in front the stroller or tripped over the stroller, etc.

Please remember, I don't think that this thread was ever started to bash all (or any) scooter drivers....it was just someone telling a 'funny' story about one. Hopefully, we can all coexist and maybe someday, we can all start to use our better judgement and try to respect each other again. It's the happiest place on earth don't let someone ruin it for you and please do everything you can to not ruin it for someone else. Group hug time.... .

 

[tx2tn]

We were getting on the elevator at our resort (BWV) and a lady came rushing in driving her ECV. We had to jump to the side to keep from getting hit. She didn't even hit the breaks. She slammed HARD into the back of the elevator. I'm sure the damage she did is still there. We're just lucky she didn't do any damage to us.

ANY time I see someone on an ECV, I go the other way!!

 

[live and let live]

It seems odd to me that ECV's are allowed to go in the same place as people who cannot walk as fast as the ECV's can go.

I view this as similar to driving on roads. The roads and pavements are there so that pedestrians and drivers are separated to help decrease the chance of an accident and once you combine pedestrians and any type of vehicle it is more likely an accident will occur (sorry to state the obvious).

It just sounds like wheelchairs seem more appropriate for Disney as you cannot speed too fast unless on a hill by letting go or you get pushed down it. At least with a wheelchair you can respond faster if someone does walk in front of you. Just like an emergency stop when driving if you go at say 30 mph and need to stop quickly then you will stop more suddenly at this speed than if driving at 60 mph.

I understand that those who have a disability find wheelchairs and ECV's useful and think it's great that they have these options available. I am just not convinced that using a ECV in Disney or any other really crowded area is the best option. Using a wheelchair just seems a safer option for those using them and those walking around them. Unless some type of test can be taken that proves the person driving an ECV can do that safely, just like you would need to prove during a driving test.

Regardless of which party is to blame I'm more bothered about safety and if there are many cases of ECV accidents maybe wheelchairs are a safer option. That way those with disabilities can still go and enjoy Disney and there could be less hurt pedestrians, it seems fair that way.

I have seen some reports that some people using ECV's have run over pedestrians seriously harming them and in some cases killed them, just like you could if you drove over someone in a car. Now I am not saying that everyone driving an ECV will run someone over on purpose with the intention to seriously harm or kill. I would just rather see people using wheelchairs if that meant it would help to decrease others from being seriously harmed.

I'm starting to feel like someone from health and safety! Disney may start making everyone wear a high visibility jacket to enter the parks. They are all the rage in Britain lol

 

[tx2tn]

It seems odd to me that ECV's are allowed to go in the same place as people who cannot walk as fast as the ECV's can go.

I view this as similar to driving on roads. The roads and pavements are there so that pedestrians and drivers are separated to help decrease the chance of an accident and once you combine pedestrians and any type of vehicle it is more likely an accident will occur (sorry to state the obvious).

I agree. We don't mix pedestrians and motor vehicles on our roads and highways and I think it is a real safety issue to do it in such a crowded area like Disney.

Both the pedestrian and the physically challenged have a right to BE at WDW, I just think that using an ECV in this environment is risky at best. I also agree that a wheelchair might be a better solution.

 

[JLTraveling]

Unfortunately, wheelchairs are not a viable substitute for ECVs for a few different reasons. First, not everyone is able to use one. My Dad has used an ECV for nearly a decade due to, among other conditions, severe arthritis in his spine. His ECV was in for repairs one day when we decide to visit Epcot. The ECVs were already gone for the day, so we rented a wheelchair. Within the first couple of hours, his back was in agony. By the end of the day, he vowed never to sit in a wheelchair again. The body position required by a wheelchair is horrible for those with certain disabilities.

Secondly, wheelchairs remove the user's independence for those who are unable to use them on their own. Many people with disabilities lack the upper body strength required to manipulate a chair, or have conditions that preclude doing so. Therefore, that person is then dependent on their pusher to get them where they want to go. Which brings up the third point...

What about people with disabilities who want to visit alone, but are unable to manipulate the chair? Do they not have the right to visit unless they bring along a pusher? Not to mention that many people who need accommodation are heavy and require a physically strong pusher...how would a Pooh sized woman with disabilities take her scrawny 8 year old daughter to Disney?

Now, I do have a story to share from the other side of the debate. Dad's an excellent driver and very competent at avoiding people in crowds. Unfortunately, the same can't always be said for the walkers. At Universal's Halloween Horror Nights a few years back, Dad was stopped on the ECV. Completely stopped off to the side of the walking path. A very drunk guy in his 20s ran across the path at full speed, looking backwards over his shoulder. The guy was rather surprised to find himself laying face down, draped over the basket of the ECV! He landed hard enough to dent the basket pretty badly, so he must have been in pain...at least the next morning when the alcohol wore off! He said he was fine and took off though, while everyone in the area fell over laughing

 

[Charleyann]

Gosh, people cross in front of wheelchairs and landed on my son's lap! Down right dangerous to use wheelchairs at Christmas!

I think BOTH ECV drivers and walkers need to both exercise caution and respect one another. Then things will work!


Charleyann

 

[TheRustyScupper]

1) I have NO tolerance for strollers or ECV's running into people.
2) It is their job to watch traffic.
3) When assaulted by a stroller or ECV, I am always startled.
4) When startled, usually I turn abruptly and spill my soda pop.
5) Sometimes (usually) it gets the driver of a stroller or ECV, full force.
6) I am sorry I am just so easily startled!

 

[tx2tn]

Gosh, people cross in front of wheelchairs and landed on my son's lap! Down right dangerous to use wheelchairs at Christmas!

I think BOTH ECV drivers and walkers need to both exercise caution and respect one another. Then things will work!

I don't think the pedestrians or the ECV users set out to be unsafe. I think the situation is inherintly unsafe. The question I have is this; If an unsafe condition does exist, do you do nothing about it? Let's be honest, humans will be humans. There will always be pedestrians that don't watch where their going and there will always be people that operate their ECV unsafely. Does Disney just shrug their shoulders and let this condition go on? Or do they do something about it?

 

[rainy~daze]

is it against any rules to operate an ECV while intoxicated? last time witnessed a woman chugging down a beer at DHS while driving her ECV with a at least 6 yo girl on her lap and crashing into everything!
we got away from that side of the park quick as to not get run over, too.


but I wondered if there is any type of policy against drinking and driving an ECV?

 

[Clotho]

What would you suggest they do?

And the incidence of ECV/pedestrian issues which cause any real damage or injury is so minute, it's not really on the radar. Sure, lots of irritating run-ins, but people truly injured...? If they got enough issues come up on that end of the spectrum, maybe it would demand "doing something" (though I can't imagine what). But despite what the back and forth on this thread might lead one to believe, it is not some rampant issue that is hospitalizing innocents on a daily basis. Haha!

 

[Mom2PrincessesLinSy]

Being one who has been hit by an ECV, I can totally relate to the pain involved in the process. It hurts!

Maybe a good plan would be an ECV lane in the high traffic areas, with exit ramps at various rides to keep the traffic flow moving. It could be a no passing lane, so then if a slow rider were in front of a speeder, it would be their problem, and not my 3 year old's problem when she gets hit by one!

Seriously though. I have worked with Spinal Cord injured patients in my career. IF they are a Paraplegic, we teach them the use of a manual chair, so that they can maneuver easier in small spaces, load up their WC in a van/car/vehicle, and maintain their strength.

Quadraplegics, obviously, don't have a choice, and need a power chair. BUT, we don't just give them one and give them a 2 min intro on the rules of the road then proclaim they are independent! Its a process. They learn how to move in a large open area, then hallways, turns, then tight spaces, etc. It takes awhile to learn the feel of the "machine" :how fast it can go (which can be set by whoever sets up the chair), How to plan for a stop, how long it takes to stop, etc. Now, there were plenty of teenagers/college kids who got power chairs and would race each other down the hall, to which we would respond by turning down their power! Or not charging their battery that night! just kidding

My point (and I do have one) is that whoever is given a power WC, ECV, whatever needs to be taught how to use the "machine" and the driver needs to get a good feel for its power, stopping ability, etc. before taking it "out on the road" That doesn't help for the stupidity factor of both the driver and the dumb dumbs who jump in front of them, but it would help!!

Just a small funny story. One of my patients was a 20 year old quadraplegic, injured in a car accident. His injury, though made him more like a paraplegic, since he had decent use of his arms. He said he would go to the mall sometimes, and people would be generally rude, or arrogant, and it would tick him off. To pay back the offender, he would wheel up behind the arrogant person and nip them in the heels. More often than not, the person who had just been "hit" would turn around and apologize to HIM. Karma I suppose...

He called it "bowling for humans" While I never condoned voluntarily hitting pedestrians with your WC, there have definately been people I would have loved to "bowl over" due to their attitude!

Side note: while this post did discuss those with permanent sever injuries, I do realize that many of the people in the parks are temporarily disabled. Just wanted to make that clear!

 

[bsmcneil]

1) I have NO tolerance for strollers or ECV's running into people.
2) It is their job to watch traffic.
3) When assaulted by a stroller or ECV, I am always startled.
4) When startled, usually I turn abruptly and spill my soda pop.
5) Sometimes (usually) it gets the driver of a stroller or ECV, full force.
6) I am sorry I am just so easily startled!

Entitlement is great. I have no tolerance for people like you - so I hope we never meet.

 

[lugnut33]

I was at Disneyland one time, and we were all queuing for the start of the evening fireworks. Well, there was an older gentleman next to us who got a great spot right at the rope near a walkway through the main hub. We had been there for 30 minutes or so to get the good spot. Well, as soon as the fireworks started, some guy the size of the Yeti walks up, pushes the rope a bit forward and stands right in front of the guy in the ECV. So for the next minute or so, the ECV dude is flashing his light and yelling at the Yetiman. Finally, the yetiman turns around, gives the old guy a dirty look and moved over about 12 inches.

 

[RayaniFoxmur]

1) I have NO tolerance for strollers or ECV's running into people.
2) It is their job to watch traffic.
3) When assaulted by a stroller or ECV, I am always startled.
4) When startled, usually I turn abruptly and spill my soda pop.
5) Sometimes (usually) it gets the driver of a stroller or ECV, full force.
6) I am sorry I am just so easily startled!

I really hope you don't mean that... especially since there are quite a few accidents that happen and a LOT of people who do bump tend to apologize. I have ridden an ECV before and I have had people accidentally back into me by foot or even stop abruptly in front of me and I nip the back of their heals. I always apologize, I never want to hurt anyone. But if you did that to me for accidentally nipping your heels or whatever, I probably would burst into tears.

Funny story actually. I was in line for something, I honestly don't remember what at this point, in an ECV since I was having a particularly bad day with my legs. There was a woman who was talking to her husband in front of me, her back to me, him facing me. Suddenly she began to back up, slowly. He grabbed at her, to keep her from falling over me (Yeah, I was completely stopped) and that made her back MORE up. I couldn't back up (we were in a stationary line) so I started trying to say something too, but before I knew it she was in my basket, her arms hitting my face. I was worried she had hurt herself, luckily she didn't. But she was pretty embarrassed that she didn't just stop when her husband told her too and that she fell on me!

 

[melancholywings]

Seriously though. I have worked with Spinal Cord injured patients in my career. IF they are a Paraplegic, we teach them the use of a manual chair, so that they can maneuver easier in small spaces, load up their WC in a van/car/vehicle, and maintain their strength.

I really agree with you. I had a friend who was in an ECV for the remainder of his life, he never ran over anyone, and he was very skilled at using it. And we'd go to busy places like rock concerts. I've seen others, even children who really understand how to use theirs. But not all disabilities are the same, and there's a huge learning curve between someone who just needs a rental for a day, or a trip and someone who has spent their whole life in one, or is driving their personal one. People tend to show less respect for rental equipment.

 

[kaytieeldr]

We were almost mowed down by a pack of ECVs last fall. While waiting for the HM to re-open they lined up behind us. There had to be at least six of them next to each other all in a row. DW told me to pick up DD because one mis step and she'd get flattened.

Okay, first, either they were lined up one behind the other, or they were all next to each other. Given the configuration of the HM queue, it would appear it would have to be the former. But more to the point - ECVs and wheelchairs CANNOT fit through the turnstiles, so would NOT be in the queue.

After reading all of these stories, I think we should have reported this accident to someone. Do they put number plates on those scooters? If not, they should.

Well, the Disney ones do have numbers on them - but Disney doesn't assign specific ECVs to specific renters. You could have looked to see if the Guest's name was on the unit. But many ECVs are rented from offsite vendors or (interestingly) owned by their users.

I realize that ECVs might be difficult to use. However, they are a vehicle and it's really up to the person riding them to ensure that they don't run into anyone. I'm not saying that people should deliberately walk out in front of them but, if that does happen, it is up to the driver.

No. Period. Please explain how the ECV user can reasonably be responsible for rude or inconsiderate or oblivious persons on foot.

[quoteGrumpy3]
I still say if people are getting hurt maybe they shouldn't allow them to be used in such large crowds of people.[/quote] IF people are getting hurt, THOSE people shouldn't be allowed to be in such large crowds of other people

Four suggestions that would help.

1) Make them more visible at a 5' level And how do you propose users BOARD an ECV that is five feet high? At what level do you think the seat would need to be set and still allow the user to SEE?
2) Install a system that automatically applies the brakes when you let off of the throttle That IS the system: release the throttle, battery power stops but physics doesn't3) Reduce the maximum speed Disney does. Many ECV-using Guests obtain the units from outside agencies, or just plain own them.
4) Require an orientation for the operator See response to suggestion 3 - not the "Disney does" part, but the rest

I just have a couple things to add. If these things are really that hard to stop and/or drive, maybe they should fix that. Make it so that if the accelerator is let go, it stops.

But that is exactly how they ARE operated. It's not an accelerator, it's a hand-controlled throttle - and even with split-second reaction time (i.e. instantly letting go of the lever), physics prevents the ECV from stopping immediately.

Just think, a lot of these careless ECV drivers are going out and getting behind the wheel of a car.

Just think, a lot of those careless pedestrieans are going out and walking (equivalent observation to the quote).

You cannot push these things, you have to drive them!!

Respectfully, this is inaccurate. EVERY ECV has a 'freestyle mode' switch or lever on the base; engaging this lever allows anybody to manually push the ECV.

I can't imagine that Disney even lets outside scooters in the park...that seems like a huge liability issue. Perhaps there are legal ramifications I'm unaware of, but why not just have ECV owners leave theirs at the front gate (in some kind of lockup area, obviously) and issue them a park owned one in its place?

Ah, okay. And who is going to pay for the use of the park-owned one? Not the Guest, who has already paid (either in full, or a rental fee) for the ECV they bring to the park. Not Disney - after all, there's no revenue in providing something free. So, who?

She didn't even hit the breaks.

THERE ARE NO BRAKES. Did she not let go of the throttle/lever quickly enough? Apparently. But there are no brakes to hit. You hold the throttle, the ECV moves. You let go of the throttle, the ECV stops - at least, as quickly as it can, again taking the physics of motion into account.

It seems odd to me that ECV's are allowed to go in the same place as people who cannot walk as fast as the ECV's can go.

Okay, so how would you redesign Walt Disney World - any one park, or all of them - to allow EQUAL access to Guests with all levels of mobility?

At least with a wheelchair you can respond faster if someone does walk in front of you.

Do you really think so? How about going down an incline/hill/ramp?

I am just not convinced that using a ECV in Disney or any other really crowded area is the best option.

A wheelchair is not an option for many ECV users. I am grateful that I had the opportunity to visit Walt Disney World before being effectively banned from the parks by this rcommendation.

Maybe a good plan would be an ECV lane in the high traffic areas, with exit ramps at various rides to keep the traffic flow moving.

It would not work. It already does not work on the specifically-designated/marked lane going in and out of The Land.

blue placard hanging from your mirror gets you a preferred parking spot,

No, it doesn't. Common misconception, though. What it actually 'gets' you is a parking space that enables the person to get out of the flow of traffic as quickly and safely as possible. This does NOT have to be the closest space to the door/entrance; two immediate examples in my usual routine are a Dunkin Donuts where the spaces are directly across the parking lot from the door instead of right at the sidewalk, and my credit union where the spaces are adjacent to the sidewalk but at the opposite end of the building from the door.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I spend a few days with a friend on an ECV a few weeks ago. Yes, it was eye opening to see it from her point of view. But, she was careful and knew where she was, and who was around her at all times. She was always prepared to stop at any moment. I don't remember her running into one single person!!!

So, do you think "that friend" would pass Grumpy3's driving test for a battery-operated mobility assistance vehicle? I do know for a fact "that friend" has, in the past five years: entertained two Mission: Space CMs by doing donuts in a safe area (i.e. away from Guests) in front of the attraction; run over HER OWN foot trying to reposition an ECV while standing next to it; and ridden one sideways off a curb at DisneyLand, after entering for the first time ever in her entire life about 10:30 PM and expecting the curbing to actually be flat - like it is at the Magic Kingdom Hub.

 

[Ms_Butterfly]

It seems odd to me that ECV's are allowed to go in the same place as people who cannot walk as fast as the ECV's can go.

It isn't odd at all; people with mobility issues are not second-class citizens. Everybody deserves the chance to go to Disney if they want to, no matter what problems life has given them.

I view this as similar to driving on roads. The roads and pavements are there so that pedestrians and drivers are separated to help decrease the chance of an accident and once you combine pedestrians and any type of vehicle it is more likely an accident will occur (sorry to state the obvious).

ECVs are not analogous to cars/motorcycles. You can compare them to wheelchairs, however.

It just sounds like wheelchairs seem more appropriate for Disney as you cannot speed too fast unless on a hill by letting go or you get pushed down it. At least with a wheelchair you can respond faster if someone does walk in front of you. Just like an emergency stop when driving if you go at say 30 mph and need to stop quickly then you will stop more suddenly at this speed than if driving at 60 mph.

Ppl who aren't used to pushing a self-powered (manual) wheelchair (as opposed to a transport chair that must be pushed by another person) all day long simply cannot. You try it - you wouldn't be able to, even if the surface was completely flat and smooth (which it isn't everywhere at Disney). Many ECV users don't use wheelchairs (or don't use them all day long) in daily life because they can walk short distances (not to mention they don't go for miles and miles each day like one does at Disney). Also, I don't use a manual chair, but I think an ECV can stop faster than somebody who has to ram their hands down on two moving wheels (which also can hurt) in order to stop.

It is also very hard to push somebody in a manual or transport wheelchair all day long. Not to mention that would mean nobody who needs wheels to be mobile could go to Disney (or anyplace within Disney) solo.

A power wheelchair is not an option because they are extremely sensitive and the controls have a huge learning curve; rental power chairs aren't even available to anybody who doesn't use a power chair in daily life because they are so hard to operate.

So, if only manual chairs were allowed at Disney, many ppl would never be able to go to Disney.