RN vs. MD

[booger73]

Debt plays a role:

Assume 18yo College - 4 years: Average tuition public $6,585/yr, Private $17,452/yr. Total so far 4 years: $26,340 at cheapest, $69808 potentionally

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_tuition

Now 22yo - Med School - 4 years: Average tuition (tuition + room/board, etc): $49298/yr public, $66984 private)
Total for 4 years: $197192 to $267936

http://gradschool.about.com/od/medicalschool/f/MedSchoolCost.htm

(Obviously some schools are cheaper, and some people get scholarships, etc, etc.. but we're talking in general)

Now 26 yo - Residency (minimum 3 years for family/IM/peds, up to 5+ surgery, other subspecialties). Salary: $40-65k/year.. maybe. Hours/wk (appx 80/wk + overnight + call)... probably just enough to cover living expenses/maybe make minimum loan payments if they want

Now anywhere from age 29-31 - Add Fellowship (1-3+ years) possibly: Salary still usually <70K/year... same thing - just enough to cover living expenses I would think, maybe save some

Total education: 11 yr - 16 years - probably aged 30-36 (maybe married, maybe kids)- now in specialty and finally can earn something (anywhere from 150k-350k perhaps) but starting debt approximately $223K to 340K... which will take a while to pay that off throwing in family, mortgage, kids, etc.

Not a profession just to look for money, that's for sure.. maybe once you get 40+ or 50+, but certainly more to go through.. you better like/love something about it cause these days it certainly isn't about the money

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

Not at all. Why would I disparage him when I'm contemplating going to med school? I admire anyone who's gone through the rigors of medical school, residency, and now has the opportunity to set their schedule and live life how they choose.

But as a physician there are very few specialties that can do this. My son wants to be a doctor. I tease him and tell him to be a dermatologist. Telling him no one will call him out in the middle of the night about their rash.

But in reality even after becoming an MD, If you become one that can set themselves a so called "foo foo" schedule, it will still be years of training, studying and sacrifices before this can be done.

I work in a surgery center with many surgeons, including eye surgeons. There is constant reading, updating certifications and continuing education also. And this isn't just for surgeons. This goes for all MD's, or should I say all medical professionals.

The docs I work with volunteer their time by mentoring, writing articles, doing free and discounted surgerys and always updating their education by attending seminars and workshops. I doubt if any MD no matter what specialty truely works 12-5.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Personally I wish he would consider nursing with the goal of NP, since they have a bit more autonomy than PA's but he can't see himself as a nurse.

May I ask why? I work with a lot of men who are nurses. There have been shifts where I have been the only woman working with all men. My own DS has mentioned nursing as a possibility and I'm good with that. He could have a great career as well as lots of time outside of work to do whatever it is he loves (as the men I work with do). We have some interesting scenarios at work. One nurse I worked with drove the minivan while his lawyer wife had the sedan. He was the only dad home in the neighborhood regularly playing ball with the kids during summers and vacations and he relished it. I also work with men whose sons are now becoming nurses, along with the usual moms and daughters, etc. Nursing can be a great career if a man has the right personality for it. Often they wind up working in high tech, "exciting" areas (like ERs, ICUs, ORs, etc) after getting some basic experience with patients. I would think that most men who could be doctors or PAs could also be nurses, but maybe not. I would hope so, though. It's all about caring for people.

 

[disfan07]

But as a physician there are very few specialties that can do this. My son wants to be a doctor. I tease him and tell him to be a dermatologist. Telling him no one will call him out in the middle of the night about their rash.

But in reality even after becoming an MD, If you become one that can set themselves a so called "foo foo" schedule, it will still be years of training, studying and sacrifices before this can be done.

I work in a surgery center with many surgeons, including eye surgeons. There is constant reading, updating certifications and continuing education also. And this isn't just for surgeons. This goes for all MD's, or should I say all medical professionals.

The docs I work with volunteer their time by mentoring, writing articles, doing free and discounted surgerys and always updating their education by attending seminars and workshops. I doubt if any MD no matter what specialty truely works 12-5.

Any MD that I know that works short hours has other commitments outside of the office (teaching, hospital staff, etc)

My derm. works 9-5 in the office 4 days/week. But she answers emails 24/7. So technically, she is still working even when she is off. And she is constantly doing things related to work. (Teaching residents, patient charts, patient cases, etc)

My allergist is only in her clinic tuesdays 9-5. But she works in the hospital on staff 3 days/week, she teaches pediatrics at the medical school once a week and she comes into the clinic on fridays if she needs to.

My internist only works in the office 2 days per week 9-5 but she is in charge of the med/peds interns and residents.

So while a doctor might ONLY see patients 12-5, they are probably doing other things outside of seeing patients that are related to their practice or career.

 

[DonDraper]

May I ask why? I work with a lot of men who are nurses. There have been shifts where I have been the only woman working with all men. My own DS has mentioned nursing as a possibility and I'm good with that. He could have a great career as well as lots of time outside of work to do whatever it is he loves (as the men I work with do). We have some interesting scenarios at work. One nurse I worked with drove the minivan while his lawyer wife had the sedan. He was the only dad home in the neighborhood regularly playing ball with the kids during summers and vacations and he relished it. I also work with men whose sons are now becoming nurses, along with the usual moms and daughters, etc. Nursing can be a great career if a man has the right personality for it. Often they wind up working in high tech, "exciting" areas (like ERs, ICUs, ORs, etc) after getting some basic experience with patients. I would think that most men who could be doctors or PAs could also be nurses, but maybe not. I would hope so, though. It's all about caring for people.

There is a website called studentdoctor.net and there are a few male nurses who post on there frequently and have voiced their displeasure about how they're treated by some of the doctors they work with.

 

[Buckeye Princess]

The path to an MD (especially for certain specialties is long and very expensive). My DH is graduating from med school this spring. He is now 26. In addition to med school expenses this year he also had to pay for all of his residency interviews. This meant plane tickets, hotels and rental cars for 15 cities!!! Throw in some expensive tests during that time too. Next it will be a 6 year residency, then a 1 year fellowship. Even after that it will take a few years of financial uncertainty while he builds his practice and invests in it. While friends are already saving for retirement, he will be about 35 until he is really earning enough for us to start really stashing for retirement. On the other hand his sister went to 2 years of school to be a PA and is already earning more than twice what he will make during his residency. Plus she gets to assist on really cool surgeries while he is still just mostly watching. We are lucky and don't have school debt but most of his peers have spent the last 4 years taking loans out to pay for school and to live on.

 

[KristaTX]

There is a website called studentdoctor.net and there are a few male nurses who post on there frequently and have voiced their displeasure about how they're treated by some of the doctors they work with.

Female nurses would also have complaints about some of the doctors.

 

[DonDraper]

Female nurses would also have complaints about some of the doctors.

Yup but these complaints were about being treated poorly simply because they were a male nurse.

 

[KristaTX]

I guess I don't see why that would be a good reason for a man not to pursue becoming a nurse. But if someone is that sensitive and insecure, then they probably don't have the stamina to be in the healthcare professions at all.

Just think how all of those first female doctors felt when they were ridiculed. But they still did it.

Or think of how any other minority has felt when entering into. . . well, anything where they are not the majority.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

There is a website called studentdoctor.net and there are a few male nurses who post on there frequently and have voiced their displeasure about how they're treated by some of the doctors they work with.

Ah, the cats and dogs of the medical world - doctors and nurses, lol.

Well that can be true of all nurses, not just males. Sometimes, though, males are more vocal and frankly, put up with less crap than many women do. (Maybe nursing would be a different profession today if it were traditionally run by men!)

IME a lot depends on where you work. I rarely have issues with doctors. Most are respectful of our mutual roles and appreciate nursing input into the care of their patients. Teamwork, remember? In turn, I'm respectful of them (unless they give me reason not to be, and vice versa). I've had to speak up here and there (as I have with all disciplines from time to time; it's people, after all), and in those times, my opinion was usually respected because it was delivered professionally and my institution fully supports the nursing role. I have worked in places that that wasn't the case, and it wasn't somewhere I cared to work long term. I mean, sure, there will be personality clashes wherever you go and whatever work you do. How you go about working together and what the expectations are where you work, IMO and E, are the keys to managing problems and a enjoying a healthy work environment.

 

[mariolatry]

The training-to-reward ratio is no longer worth it in medicine. My DH is a physician. It took a B.S., an MPH (not required but certainly beneficial), a medical degree, three years of residency, and two years of a post-doctoral fellowship under his belt to become competent and certified in his field. He graduated with almost $130,000 in student loan debt. Needless to say, we're on the 35-year repayment plan.

Meanwhile, the part of medicine that most doctors sought (caring for people) is being reduced while the amount of work required is increasing astronomically. DH works every single day of the year, unless he's taking vacation time; every holiday since I've known him (10 years), not to mention weekends, nights, birthdays, anniversaries. The care he provides is dictated by insurance companies and the liability insurers. And when he gets frustrated, there's not much he can do about it. He can't afford to quit because we would have to default on the loan.

If our girls wanted to work in health care, I would push them toward nursing or the rehab therapies. Less education, less debt, more autonomy, and more chances to really help people!

 

[DonDraper]

The training-to-reward ratio is no longer worth it in medicine. My DH is a physician. It took a B.S., an MPH (not required but certainly beneficial), a medical degree, three years of residency, and two years of a post-doctoral fellowship under his belt to become competent and certified in his field. He graduated with almost $130,000 in student loan debt. Needless to say, we're on the 35-year repayment plan.

Only 130,000 in debt? That sounds like the steal of the century.

 

[mariolatry]

Only 130,000 in debt? That sounds like the steal of the century.

He's a first generation Asian American. His parents are REALLY big into education and paid for the B.S. and the MPH, plus gave us money for living expenses during medical school/intern year/residency/fellowship. Plus, we've been paying on the loan for 5 years so we've chipped a little off.


It's depressing as hell, honestly. I will do anything to prevent my girls from becoming doctors.

 

[Abbie]

May I ask why?

Probably mostly because he's 17 and clueless. But to use your own explanation, he is more geared towards treating the illness as opposed to the response.

He will get a better feel for things as he makes his way through, will be majoring in bio so can go either way after graduation.

 

[Aisling]

Yup but these complaints were about being treated poorly simply because they were a male nurse.

Wow, that sucks! In the hospital where I used to work we had many male nurses. I wonder if they felt that way?? It would make me very angry if they were not treated well by the MDs.

We have to get over the old idea that nurses are just comforters who change bedpans and stick thermometers in patients mouths, a traditional womanly nurturing thing. Nurses today are what I like to call Doctors-lite. They really are just one step below a doctor with all the knowledge of meds and wound care and general medical information that they have. Nurses walk on water as far as I'm concerned. And not to be controversial, but I actually prefer male nurses, I think because I subconsciously want to have the opportunity to treat them with the respect they deserve. I just wish we'd stop calling them "male nurses" instead of just nurses.

I have a nurse friend who's an MMA fighter whose been on Pay per view TV, in case anyone thinks there's a certain untrue stereotype about them. His name is Philip Nover if you've ever heard of him.

 

[disfan07]

I love my nurses. I swear they have all been saints and I could never do what they do. Since the hospital is 1+ hours from my house I spend a lot of time at the hospital alone and I am always the baby on the floor (I am 21 and have been the youngest on the med/surg, neuro, pulm. and cardio floors) the nurses have been absolutely amazing. They are not just there doing vitals and giving meds but they come by an talk with me, keep me supplied in snacks (gotta love them for that) and just generally keep me happy.

I love my doctors as well. I have 10 doctors in 10 specialties and every single one of them has amazing bedside manner. They are sweet and caring and amazing at what they do. They spend 30-45 mins with me during office visits and have been in my hospital room for an hour before just talking. I had one doctor who was not involved with my care in the hospital because it wasn't her specialty but she decided to come by to chat because she heard I was there and she had some free time. She and I talked for an hour before she was paged for a consult.

My doctors do very much care for the patient and not just the disease. Compassion and bedside manner are definitley part of how they practice medicine. But there are so many doctors that are not like that (I've had many that don't know what bedside manner is).

I think there are different rewards for each profession and it just depends on which path you are more interested in. A few of my doctors joke that they went to medical school because they never would have survived being a nurse. They say they are so not cut out for what the nurses do.

 

[singastory]

It's depressing as hell, honestly. I will do anything to prevent my girls from becoming doctors.

I'm not trying to make any judgements, only trying to speak from personal experience. I'm currently in veterinary school and have wanted to be a vet my entire life. My father was against this career path even up until the time when I was applying to schools, trying to get me to go into human medicine instead. All I will say is that if your daughters have a passion to do something and feel good doing it, why stop them? Give them some facts, encourage them to do some research if you're worried about the debt, but ultimately it's their decision and if they can bring some good to the medical field then I think it would be a shame to prevent it from happening.

It is possible to get through a professional school while being smart about debt. I went to a public school for my undergraduate degree where my tuition was paid almost in full from scholastic and extra-curricular scholarships. There are more private schools out there willing to give students money than you think. As for my current situation, I'm going to the veterinary school in the state I grew up in, which allows me in-state tuition (20k cheaper a year than out of state tuition). I'm also taking out all loans I was awarded that are interest-free. That still leaves me with a hefty sum after 4 years, but it's not unmanageable and will be closer to what an out of state student would rack up getting their undergrad degree.

I'm done with 4 years of undergrad, and almost 1 year into vet school which leaves me 3 more years to go. Where I decide to go after that is a little more open as opposed to human medicine, we have a built-in "residency" our fourth year here, so I could do an internship, a true residency, go straight into private practice, industry, government, etc. For anyone with children interested in animals and medicine, the job market for vet med is only projected to increase in the coming years.

There's a similar level of frustration between human medicine and veterinary medicine because veterinarians must be comfortable in many fields and be familiar with many different species. Orthopedic surgery, soft tissue surgery, ophthalmology, internal medicine, dermatology, obstetrics, emergency, radiology, dog, cat, horse, goat, sheep, pig, chicken, lizard, bird, rat, HUMAN sometimes, you name it, we do it all, and it is much more work than playing with fuzzy puppies and kittens all day (although that is a nice perk sometimes ).

Another interesting topic is that the majority of people in vet school now are women. They asked me what I thought about this in my interview and I truthfully didn't have an answer. 20 years ago it was completely the opposite with most veterinarians being male. Vet med might even be more grueling than medical school in terms of course load, so I'm not sure if the whole "medical school is for more manly brains" argument (shudder) has any credit at all.

Sorry if this didn't make much sense, it's 1:00 am and I have a midterm tomorrow I guess my point is that I've never even seen the dollar signs, it is all worth it in my eyes to do what I love to do, every single day. I came straight out of undergrad but there are plenty of students in my class that are married or over 25. I have time to spend with my dog every evening, I have time to see my boyfriend on the weekends, and I study basically constantly with a great group of friends, so it's FUN rather than work. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything, and I fully intend on starting a family before I'm 30. It's not easy, but it's also not impossible. And I'm definitely glad I'm not having to deal with the job market right now!!

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Yup but these complaints were about being treated poorly simply because they were a male nurse.

I seriously find that hard to imagine. I mean, how does a nurse who's male know that he's being treated poorly simply because he's male unless the person treating him poorly says something specifically about that? Which in fact, can't really happen in a professional environment that these people would find themselves working in without serious repercussions.

My guess is more that the men just experienced being treated poorly and assumed it was because they were male as opposed to traditional doctor-nurse condascension. I'd suggest they find a place to work that treats their nurses better. Or demand it, in fact.

 

[npmommie]

I seriously find that hard to imagine. I mean, how does a nurse who's male know that he's being treated poorly simply because he's male unless the person treating him poorly says something specifically about that? Which in fact, can't really happen in a professional environment that these people would find themselves working in without serious repercussions.

My guess is more that the men just experienced being treated poorly and assumed it was because they were male as opposed to traditional doctor-nurse condascension. I'd suggest they find a place to work that treats their nurses better. Or demand it, in fact.

I have always had great working relationships with the doctors I work with, its a team effort, working together.
I have worked at large teaching institutions and believe me the doctors there treat the nurses with respect and vice versa.
sure you have the odd one out who might get a little big for his/her britches on occasion, but it does not happen regularly.
they depend on us just as much as we depend on them.
it really does flow both ways.

and that is the way it should be anywhere really.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I guess my point is that I've never even seen the dollar signs, it is all worth it in my eyes to do what I love to do, every single day.

singastory, good luck with your studies. You sound like you will make a great vet! I had no interest in human medicine but seriously considered veterinary medicine after college. It took a lot of soul searching to figure out for sure what I wanted to do.

At the time, median salaries were the same for both veterinarians and nurses**, which I already was. So truly it would have been a labor of love to go to veterinary school. At the time there was only one around here (Tufts) and even back then in the 80s it was quite expensive. I would have come out of school with massive debt, only to be making the same salary I could have made without it, plus working tons of hours and essentially being married to my work. At the time I was already with my DH and loved the life we had together and the fun things we did with our free time, so although he would have been supportive of either, that weighed heavily on my decision.

The thing that sealed it for me was thinking about how I would feel dealing with neglect and abuse cases, or being asked to euthanize a healthy animal who was simply no longer wanted, etc. I would be fine with doing surgery to help an animal or euthanizing an older animal who'd had a good life, but I would not be able to do certain other functions that vets must do, so ultimately I decided it wasn't for me, and that was a good decision. I still enjoy helping animals and owners, but I can do that in other ways. It does make me respect when people say to me, "I couldn't do that" (as a nurse) because I know there were certain things I wouldn't have been able to do as a vet. I do very much respect the work that veterinarians do.

This is for you if you'd like it for your signature. One of my favorite authors, James Herriot.

PS interesting question about women/men in veterinary school. I will ponder it.

** Curious to see how this is today, I researched it a bit.

Earnings Veterinarian

Median annual wages of veterinarians were $79,050 in May 2008. The middle 50 percent earned between $61,370 and $104,110. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $46,610, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $143,660.

The average annual salary for veterinarians in the Federal Government was $93,398 in March 2009.

According to a survey by the American Veterinary Medical Association, average starting salaries of veterinary medical college graduates in 2008 varied by type of practice as follows:

Small animals, exclusively $64,744
Large animals, exclusively 62,424
Small animals, predominantly 61,753
Mixed animals 58,522
Large animals, predominantly 57,745
Equine (horses) 41,636

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos076.htm

Earnings Registered Nurse

Median annual wages of registered nurses were $62,450 in May 2008. The middle 50 percent earned between $51,640 and $76,570. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $43,410, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $92,240. Median annual wages in the industries employing the largest numbers of registered nurses in May 2008 were:

Employment services $68,160
General medical and surgical hospitals 63,880
Offices of physicians 59,210
Home health care services 58,740
Nursing care facilities 57,060

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos083.htm

This doesn't show the number of hours worked, but for nurses it is probably significantly less.

And, for argument's sake, medical doctor salary

How much does this job pay?

Of all jobs, being a doctor usually pays the most money. According to the Medical Group Management Association's Physician Compensation and Production Survey, median wages depended on what kind of doctor a person was. The median yearly wages of general practitioners were $186,044 in 2008. Specialists usually made more, about $339,738 per year. How much they earned also depended on how long they had been doctors and where they lived.

http://www.bls.gov/k12/content/help06.stm

I also came across these job descriptions for MD and RN

MD http://www.bls.gov/k12/content/help06.stm

RN http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos083.htm