RN vs. MD

[roliepolieoliefan]

OP , from your posts you connect reward with money. Yes, MD's do make alot of money, but there are also years of debt and sacrifice that go along with it. My cousin who is 32 just finished up his surgical residency. yes, 32! He just now joined a practice as a practicing attending surgeon.

Over the years he missed many family parties, holidays, even important milestones in his kids lives, why? Because he made a committment and many days he was at the hospital 24/7. There was no saying hey boss I can't be here tomorrow its my sons birthday. There are no requesting days off when you are scheduled, you must be there.

There is no comparison IMOP.

As someone said apples to oranges.

In my profession, I punch out and come home. I don't want my career to be my life.

 

[Deb in IA]

Does anyone know why there seems to be a lot more people interested in becoming an RN than an MD? I know it's expensive and time consuming to want to become a doctor but it seems the rewards would be well worth it.

What type of office do you work at? What's the specialty? I shadowed an ophthalmologist and he works 12-5 everyday and then does surgery on Thursday. I think he's hauling in about 300k a year.

OK, maybe I'm in a particularly snarky mood this morning, after being called 4 times last night from the hospital and still having to be in bright and early to teach residents and students and then put in a full day seeing clinic patients, but I personally find the tone and implications of this post rather narrow-minded and a bit insulting.

So, the ophthalmologist you "shadowed" for one day works 5 hours and "pulls 300 K"?

Did you "shadow" him when he was grinding out 4 years of undergrad, taking chemistry, organic chem, biobchem, biology, physics and studying his butt off to make at least a 3.8?

Did you sit with him for hundreds of hours preparing for MCATs, then survive a grueling all day test, completing 52 questions each in physical science and biological science in 70 minutes, and then spending an hour each in verbal reasoning questions and a writing sample?

Did you apply to, pay for and travel with him to interview at, on average, 5 to 10 medical schools?

Did you survive 4 more intensely grueling years learning all of basic and clinical science that it the foundation of all branches of medicine? Did you take all 3 parts of the USMLE to successfully receive your license?

Did you then survive 3 to 8 + years of internship/residency training, with every 3 to 4 night call, average ot 80 hour work weeks, with minimal pay and benefits?

Did you pay $1000's and take general and subspecialty board examinations for board certification?

And what is your point? If he can make $300K by only working 12 - 5, why shouldn't he? Do you think he should be working 8 to 8 and make $600K?

After putting in years of sweat and grueling hard work and delayed gratification, what is the big deal if he now gets to reap some benefits of all that effort?

As for nurses, I have the highest respect for my colleagues. I am sure their schooling and training is superb. I depend on them as much as they depend on me. I know they also have tough classes, and difficult examination and licensing and board requirements.

But the focus, scope and training are completely different. Not any better or worse, but different. You can't compare the two, and you aren't going to provoke a fight between us.

 

[castleview]

I think the OP is wondering why less people are going for an MD and why nursing and PA school is huge. My opinion is it's a matter of how much time and money you want to put into it. Nursing is particularly huge right now because there are many options as far as both working and getting your degree goes.

 

[mdsoccermom]

OK, maybe I'm in a particularly snarky mood this morning, after being called 4 times last night from the hospital and still having to be in bright and early to teach residents and students and then put in a full day seeing clinic patients, but I personally find the tone and implications of this post rather narrow-minded and a bit insulting.

So, the ophthalmologist you "shadowed" for one day works 5 hours and "pulls 300 K"?

Did you "shadow" him when he was grinding out 4 years of undergrad, taking chemistry, organic chem, biobchem, biology, physics and studying his butt off to make at least a 3.8?

Did you sit with him for hundreds of hours preparing for MCATs, then survive a grueling all day test, completing 52 questions each in physical science and biological science in 70 minutes, and then spending an hour each in verbal reasoning questions and a writing sample?

Did you apply to, pay for and travel with him to interview at, on average, 5 to 10 medical schools?

Did you survive 4 more intensely grueling years learning all of basic and clinical science that it the foundation of all branches of medicine? Did you take all 3 parts of the USMLE to successfully receive your license?

Did you then survive 3 to 8 + years of internship/residency training, with every 3 to 4 night call, average ot 80 hour work weeks, with minimal pay and benefits?

Did you pay $1000's and take general and subspecialty board examinations for board certification?

And what is your point? If he can make $300K by only working 12 - 5, why shouldn't he? Do you think he should be working 8 to 8 and make $600K?

After putting in years of sweat and grueling hard work and delayed gratification, what is the big deal if he now gets to reap some benefits of all that effort?

As for nurses, I have the highest respect for my colleagues. I am sure their schooling and training is superb. I depend on them as much as they depend on me. I know they also have tough classes, and difficult examination and licensing and board requirements.

But the focus, scope and training are completely different. Not any better or worse, but different. You can't compare the two, and you aren't going to provoke a fight between us.

Ummm...I don't think the OP is begrudging a doctor for working 5 hours a day and making $300K.

 

[horseshowmom]

I work with MD's and it's not just the amount of school, but they then have residency, fellowship....it's not as if you graduate school and get a huge salary and the perks, it takes many, many years of experience to make any money after getting that MD Diploma on the wall.

Also, the MD's in my office work almost 24/7. Not exactly very friendly to a marriage or starting a family. It truly becomes your entire life.

My cousin who is 32 just finished up his surgical residency. yes, 32! He just now joined a practice as a practicing attending surgeon.

Over the years he missed many family parties, holidays, even important milestones in his kids lives, why? Because he made a committment and many days he was at the hospital 24/7. There was no saying hey boss I can't be here tomorrow its my sons birthday.

My daughter will be graduating from pharmacy school next month. She thought long and hard about going into orthopedic medicine earlier in her college career. She decided on pharmacy for some of the reasons listed above. She enjoys what she does now and will have a fairly reliable schedule at an excellent salary.

As far as why people choose RN vs. MD, I agree with the other posters - apples and oranges.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

What type of office do you work at? What's the specialty? I shadowed an ophthalmologist and he works 12-5 everyday and then does surgery on Thursday. I think he's hauling in about 300k a year.

I cannot tell from your post whether you are young and contemplating careers, but since you mention job shadowing, I assume that you must be, so my advice would be to be careful to not correlate income with happiness.

I can assure you, and this is supported by study after study, that happiness is not income dependent. People who are happy in their careers tend to have chosen the career that fits them best, rather than the one that pays them the most money (unless that career is what fits them best). I work in a profession with very high income potential, and I love what I do. I work with many people who are in it for the money, and they are miserable (and, as a result, frequently their incomes suffer and they usually burn out).

In other words, if you choose to be an opthamologist simply for the income, you may well hate it and be unhappy. But if you're contemplating a career in medicine, and think that being a doctor is right for you, then go for it and follow your dream. Both doctors and nurses are critical to the patient care process (along with a host of related professions).

 

[Abbie]

You see the bigger paycheck as a reward. Yes, it's nice, but many people don't consider it to be a great reward if it means sacrificing years of your life and time with your family.

Big paychecks can be a nice reward for years of grueling work but it's not the only thing. DS is heading off to college this summer. Original plan was orthopedic surgery as a goal but after many college visits and much research, he decided it was important to him to have a family while still relatively young. And while you can do this while in med school/residency, it's very, very difficult. Now his focus is PA, which is intensive in its own requirements but will allow him to have the family he wants without the focus of med school.

Personally I wish he would consider nursing with the goal of NP, since they have a bit more autonomy than PA's but he can't see himself as a nurse.

 

[Pugdog007]

Is this a serious question? Medical school is not easy to get into. The level of education is completely different - 2 years as opposed to 8 years + residency.

 

[DonDraper]

OK, maybe I'm in a particularly snarky mood this morning, after being called 4 times last night from the hospital and still having to be in bright and early to teach residents and students and then put in a full day seeing clinic patients, but I personally find the tone and implications of this post rather narrow-minded and a bit insulting.

So, the ophthalmologist you "shadowed" for one day works 5 hours and "pulls 300 K"?

Did you "shadow" him when he was grinding out 4 years of undergrad, taking chemistry, organic chem, biobchem, biology, physics and studying his butt off to make at least a 3.8?

Did you sit with him for hundreds of hours preparing for MCATs, then survive a grueling all day test, completing 52 questions each in physical science and biological science in 70 minutes, and then spending an hour each in verbal reasoning questions and a writing sample?

Did you apply to, pay for and travel with him to interview at, on average, 5 to 10 medical schools?

Did you survive 4 more intensely grueling years learning all of basic and clinical science that it the foundation of all branches of medicine? Did you take all 3 parts of the USMLE to successfully receive your license?

Did you then survive 3 to 8 + years of internship/residency training, with every 3 to 4 night call, average ot 80 hour work weeks, with minimal pay and benefits?

Did you pay $1000's and take general and subspecialty board examinations for board certification?

And what is your point? If he can make $300K by only working 12 - 5, why shouldn't he? Do you think he should be working 8 to 8 and make $600K?

After putting in years of sweat and grueling hard work and delayed gratification, what is the big deal if he now gets to reap some benefits of all that effort?

As for nurses, I have the highest respect for my colleagues. I am sure their schooling and training is superb. I depend on them as much as they depend on me. I know they also have tough classes, and difficult examination and licensing and board requirements.

But the focus, scope and training are completely different. Not any better or worse, but different. You can't compare the two, and you aren't going to provoke a fight between us.

I don't even know where you're coming from with this post? I wasn't upset with the doctor for what he makes and the schedule he sets, I was pleased with it. I was pointing it out as an example that doctors don't necessarily have to sacrifice a family to make a great living and fulfill their dream.

I suggest that you read the entire thread a little more carefully in the future before you shark attack people.

 

[collegejunkie]

i decided on dental school against medical school because i didn't want to deal with residency after 4 more years of schooling. with dentistry, i have the choice of doing residency if i want to specialize, but i could just be a general dentist and still make the amount of money i want to. not as short as RN, but worth it to me.

 

[Deb in IA]

I don't even know where you're coming from with this post? I wasn't upset with the doctor for what he makes and the schedule he sets, I was pleased with it. I was pointing it out as an example that doctors don't necessarily have to sacrifice a family to make a great living and fulfill their dream.

If that was truly your intent, then I apologize.

But to me, it sounded like you are disparaging the doctor for only working 5 hours and making a hefty amount.

And I was just pointing out that there was a lot of hard work and lean times BEFORE the ophthalmologist was able to live the high life.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I'll try to answer this simply. I am an RN and proud to be a nurse.

Things we have in common are that we both go into it wanting to help people from a healthcare perspective. But how we go about that is different, although we work cooperatively.

In other words, our professional perpectives focus on different things. Both things that help people from a health perspective.

These things are defined by our education and license to practice.

American Nursing Association Definition of Nursing

Nursing is the protection, promotion, and optimization of health and abilities, prevention of illness and injury, alleviation of suffering through the diagnosis and treatment of human response, and advocacy in the care of individuals, families, communities, and populations.

What defines nursing and sets it apart from other health care professions, particularly medicine with which it has long been considered part and parcel? It is nurses’ focus – in theory and practice – on the response of the individual and the family to actual or potential health problems. Nurses are educated to be attuned to the whole person, not just the unique presenting health problem. While a medical diagnosis of an illness may be fairly circumscribed, the human response to a health problem may be much more fluid and variable and may have a great effect on the individual’s ability to overcome the initial medical problem. It is often said that physicians cure, and nurses care. In what some describe as a blend of physiology and psychology, nurses build on their understanding of the disease and illness process to promote the restoration and maintenance of health in their clients.

My definition of Medical Doctor will be shorter because I'm far more familiar with the definition of a nurse (and any medical doctors are welcome to chime in here - I did look around and this was the best I could do right now; big issue is to just show the inherent differences, not say one is better than the other, etc).

A physician — which can encompass: MD, DO, MDCM, BMed, MBBS, BDS, BDent, DMD, DDS, DC, and BPod, DPM, medical practitioner, medical doctor, or simply doctor — is a health care provider who practices the profession of medicine, which is concerned with promoting, maintaining or restoring human health through the study, diagnosis, and treatment of disease, injury and other physical and mental impairments.

Now, obviously, the actualities of medical and nursing practice are FAR MORE complex and overlapping than what is listed here.

BUT, at the most basic level, the a doctor is educated and licensed to treat the person's illness and the nurse is educated and licensed to treat the person's response to their illness.

Most nurses go into nursing wanting to be a nurse because it's a worthwhile profession that helps people manage their health issues. They recognize their role and work within the perspectives and guidelines of nursing. If a nurse goes into nursing to be a "mini doctor", he or she will probably be pretty disappointed because the nursing perspective is different. Over the years I've trained a lot of nurses and it's been rare that I've had to say, "that is not your role". Nurses know their roles (although in certain areas, those lines may get a little blurred as the team works so closely together). And of course, advanced practice nurses such as Nurse Practitioners do take on some of the characteristics of medicine, although generally they never lose their perspective as a nurse (which is a great asset and why patients often enjoy them).

Nurses who want to be doctors go to medical school. My pediatrician started out as a nurse. Not surprised whatsoever as the first day I met her I didn't even know her (she was covering for my own pediatrician) yet she had an incredible bedside manner and gave me a hug when I became upset about something. I remember thinking if we ever needed to switch, I'd want her! And that's exactly what happened. We have a great working relationship because she understands how I think and I know she understands things from a "response to" perspective, even before she became a parent herself.

I could go on but I'll end here. I think you get the jist.

I work with great doctors and great nurses and am amazed every day at the work we do TOGETHER on behalf of our patients.

The last thing I want to say (and I'll put my flame suit on) is that, although there's controversy within the profession itself and this pathway was driven by the nursing shortage after WWII and the women's movement of the 50's and 60's, most professional nursing organizations feel that, with the complex needs of patients today, the entry to professional nursing practice should be at the bachelor's level (BSN), not the associate's. Some hospitals, such as my own, will only hire nurses who have a bachelor's degree or higher, and in fact many staff nurses have degrees at the master's level or above. The reason for this is that studies have shown that morbidity and mortality rates are lower for hospitals that employ mostly BSN nurses. Although people may disagree, this isn't really disputable. So yes, the bedside nurse you have in some hospitals may have almost as much education, training and experience as your doctor does. "2 years vs 8 yrs" can be very misleading.

 

[MrsPete]

My oldest child is going to major in nursing. She's ALWAYS wanted to do something medical-related, and she went back and forth between doctor-nurse for a long time. Once she started taking Health Occupations classes in high school, she became aware of other medical jobs: Radiologist, Pharmacist, Mortician, etc.

She and I did some research together (read, talked to many people, etc.) to see just what was invovled in each, and I'm sure that she's made the right choice for multiple reasons:

- She can earn a BS in nursing in four years; a medical degree would take much, much more than that -- IF she could get into medical school, which isn't a given, even for a good student -- and the money involved would be significantly different. Taking into consideration the "payback time", it'd be quite a few years before she started earning money.

- The malpractice insurance. Wow.

- A plain old general practitioner earns a good salary, but to make really obscene bucks -- the only reason, in my mind, to put in the time and effort required to become a doctor -- she'd have to specialize in something (dermatology, fertility, etc.), and that's even more education.

- On the other hand, a nurse with a specialty -- a nurse with a master's degree in something profitable -- can do very, very well. And this is doable in a fraction of the time necessary to become an MD.

- Finally, all the doctors she questioned (she wasn't shy about it at all) talked about the long hours they work. She's clear on the fact that she wants a job she'll like, but she doesn't want that job to BECOME her life. She wants to have a family and a life outside of work. I think she's going to be pleased that she'll have choices in her work: She'll be able to work part-time or full-time, in a hospital, in a doctor's office, in home health, etc.

Personally, I think she's made a good choice.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

On the other hand, a nurse with a specialty -- a nurse with a master's degree in something profitable -- can do very, very well. And this is doable in a fraction of the time necessary to become an MD.

Even without a master's degree, a hospital BSN can do very well, too, depending on where he or she works. IME once you get into the NP and such, you run into the some of the same problems you run into with being an MD - often long hours and definitely increased responsibility. I can't tell you how many staff nurses I work with who are Master's and even PhD prepared NPs. Why? Because the hours (and often pay) are better, especially for working parents. Staff nurses can work two days a week. While NPs can sometimes, often medical practices want them there full time or heavily part time. But it becomes a lifestyle thing at some point. And that's great if people want it. But if they want the freedom to have a life outside of work, then simply being staff nurse can be a great thing, too. For people who want "more" as a staff nurse, of course there are speciaties, but there are also tons of projects and committee work and such that one can become involved in to keep interests varied. There are also many, many varied nursing positions within hospitals. One doesn't "have to" become a nurse practitioner or advanced practice nurse in order to have career satisfaction or a decent paycheck. (Just fyi for those interested.)

 

[KristaTX]

RN is only 2years of college or a certificate program and if you go to a community college you can be done for a few thousand and go to school part time.... Much more accessible.

2 years as opposed to 8 years + residency.

Actually, "only 2 years" is very unlikely. For a Bachelors of Science in Nursing (BSN), it takes approximately 4 years because of all the educational requirements it takes to earn a bachelors degree in any program. For an Associates Degree in Nursing (ADN), it more likely takes people at least 3 years because there are still prerequisites required before one ever enters the nursing program. You don't just go straight from high school into an RN program.

There may still be what is/was referred to as "diploma programs" that take 2 to 3 years to complete, but I don't know of any of those in existence anymore. When I graduated from nursing school they were becoming more and more scarce, and that was 16 years ago. There may still be some.

The RN license is the same in any case. But the college degree is different. Some jobs require the BSN. Some don't. It depends on the employer's specific requirements.

An LVN/LPN license, as opposed to an RN license, may be obtainable in one year. However, it is a different educational process, license, and career. As the name implies, it is considered a vocational program and vocational license, as opposed to the professional licenses that RNs have. State requirements and law are different for LVNs/LPNs and RNs.

Also, anyone calling him/herself a "nurse" must be at least either an LVN/LPN or RN. At least in Texas, it is illegal to call oneself a "nurse" without being licensed as an LVN/LPN or RN.

 

[MrsPete]

But to me, it sounded like you are disparaging the doctor for only working 5 hours and making a hefty amount.

I didn't think the OP was knocking the doctor -- I thought it was a question about why anyone would choose to be "just a nurse", when the doctor job is available. The OP seemed to see the doctor as a little more effort, just a little more time for a BIG STEP UP in pay. Clearly, the OP wasn't well informed.

Also, I think it'd be interesting to know the age of the doctor whom the OP shadowed. I'm thinking about my daughters' orthodontist. He's been in practice FOREVER. I mean, when I started teaching 19 years ago he was already "the ortho" in town -- everyone went to him. Now his kids are out of college -- well out of college, I know 'cause they were among the first students I taught years ago -- and he's ready to retire. He's taken on a younger partner, and he himself works only a couple afternoons a week. He owns the building in which he works, and he rents offices to other doctors. He does outrageous things like take off three weeks to spend Labor Day in Hawaii -- his partner sees the majority of the patients now. BUT the big point is that he can do this NOW because he's been in business forever, and he's earned his way up the ladder. I'm certain that a couple decades ago he was a struggling young doctor who had trouble making ends meet with his student loans and who worked all the time. It doesn't show NOW.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

An LVN/LPN license, as opposed to an RN license, may be obtainable in one year. However, it is a different educational process, license, and career. As the name implies, it is considered a vocational program and vocational license, as opposed to the professional licenses that RNs have. State requirements and law are different for LVNs/LPNs and RNs.

Absolutely.

For those who don't know, technical nurses are not considered to be professional nurses. (Not to be snotty here, but just to explain the differences.)

The professional nurse, i.e. the RN, is educated and licensed to carry out the nursing process, which is to assess, (nursing) diagnose, plan, implement and evaluate nursing care. This is not something the practical or technical nurse is educated or licensed to do.

 

[DonDraper]

I didn't think the OP was knocking the doctor -- I thought it was a question about why anyone would choose to be "just a nurse", when the doctor job is available. The OP seemed to see the doctor as a little more effort, just a little more time for a BIG STEP UP in pay. Clearly, the OP wasn't well informed.

Also, I think it'd be interesting to know the age of the doctor whom the OP shadowed. I'm thinking about my daughters' orthodontist. He's been in practice FOREVER. I mean, when I started teaching 19 years ago he was already "the ortho" in town -- everyone went to him. Now his kids are out of college -- well out of college, I know 'cause they were among the first students I taught years ago -- and he's ready to retire. He's taken on a younger partner, and he himself works only a couple afternoons a week. He owns the building in which he works, and he rents offices to other doctors. He does outrageous things like take off three weeks to spend Labor Day in Hawaii -- his partner sees the majority of the patients now. BUT the big point is that he can do this NOW because he's been in business forever, and he's earned his way up the ladder. I'm certain that a couple decades ago he was a struggling young doctor who had trouble making ends meet with his student loans and who worked all the time. It doesn't show NOW.

I would say he was probably in his early 40s.

 

[DonDraper]

If that was truly your intent, then I apologize.

But to me, it sounded like you are disparaging the doctor for only working 5 hours and making a hefty amount.

And I was just pointing out that there was a lot of hard work and lean times BEFORE the ophthalmologist was able to live the high life.

Not at all. Why would I disparage him when I'm contemplating going to med school? I admire anyone who's gone through the rigors of medical school, residency, and now has the opportunity to set their schedule and live life how they choose.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

My son is graduating from nursing school next month. He has a Bachelor's Degree in Biology and will have another Bachelor's Degree in Nursing. He originally considered medical school, but decided on nursing instead. I think he felt it was a better fit for him. His ultimate goal is Nurse Practitioner, but first things first - graduate with his BSN and GET A JOB!!!! He's been in a one year second degree program and it's been very rigorous. He could not work while completing this program, so I've been supporting him. Hopefully, he won't have too much trouble finding a job, but in this economy (in Michigan) you never know.

Good luck to him!