Riviera Owners Are Going To Make Booking At 7 Months Much More Difficult

Spark65

Mouseketeer
Joined
Sep 27, 2019
With me as someone who wants to trade out of my own home resort, but not into Riv, that further strains the system at 7 months. If it were more in line pointswise with BVC or BWV, I would be happy to try it out for a week.
So you bought at one resort but prefer to stay at others. Do you feel you put a strain on the system by booking other resorts at 7 months? Riv owners aren't allowed to do the same as you because it affects you and how you vacation as how I see it.
If that's not a "one way" argument I don't know what is. Let me ask you do you think original owners at OKW feel the same about you johnny come lately's at the BLT I doubt it.
 

Lumpy1106

DIS Veteran
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
FWIW - I happened to check today because it's 7-months out from my next trip. There is plenty of availability at SSR, OKW, AKL...and RIV.
 

The Jackal

DIS Veteran
Joined
Oct 24, 2017
The bed under the TV at RIV is a full size single, meant for an adult and not a child, the pull down murphy bed which is much better than the sofa and the split bathroom. They have probably the best studios for a family of 5 (I think the extra space at Poly is a bit wasted in the second shower room, the living areas doesn't feel bigger than other resorts). And the two bedrooms sleep 10 people, which is currently unique I think.
This said, if given the choice between BWV garden or RIV preferred, I would chose the former any day, exactly because of the cheaper points. But I travel solo so I don't need those extra amenities, not sure what a family would choose.
2 bedroom lock offs sleep 10, along with VGF 2 bedroom lock offs. Standard 2 bedrooms sleep 9 at both and at other resorts too. RIV has a similar shower room like PVB does in the studios. PVB studios are 447 sq fr compared to RIV 423 sq ft.
 
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  • Ben E N

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 14, 2017
    So you bought at one resort but prefer to stay at others. Do you feel you put a strain on the system by booking other resorts at 7 months? Riv owners aren't allowed to do the same as you because it affects you and how you vacation as how I see it.
    If that's not a "one way" argument I don't know what is. Let me ask you do you think original owners at OKW feel the same about you johnny come lately's at the BLT I doubt it.
    There's an equal value trade into BLT, though. I know because I first stayed there as a renter, and those points still rent out at a premium. 21 points per night during the summer to walk to the Magic Kingdom and have a nice lake view is very appealing to many people.
    I am not saying Riviera is worthless, just that it is priced too high per night to be worth trading into. I cannot say the same about any other DVC property. Grand Floridian is a bit out of my price per night range, but with it being Disney's flagship resort, I can see where the value is. Other than sleeping five adults, I do not see the justification for putting such an extreme price on Riviera studios. This in turn throws a mostly balanced system out of whack, and all in the name of greed on Disney's part.
     

    Spark65

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Sep 27, 2019
    There's an equal value trade into BLT, though. I know because I first stayed there as a renter, and those points still rent out at a premium. 21 points per night during the summer to walk to the Magic Kingdom and have a nice lake view is very appealing to many people.
    I am not saying Riviera is worthless, just that it is priced too high per night to be worth trading into. I cannot say the same about any other DVC property. Grand Floridian is a bit out of my price per night range, but with it being Disney's flagship resort, I can see where the value is. Other than sleeping five adults, I do not see the justification for putting such an extreme price on Riviera studios. This in turn throws a mostly balanced system out of whack, and all in the name of greed on Disney's part.
    Your changing your argument. I doubt many will buy points at RIV or GF just so they can use them at lower point resorts that would be a poor use of points. I would never buy points at RIV to use at SSR that I can assure you.
     

    crvetter

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 26, 2018
    There's an equal value trade into BLT, though. I know because I first stayed there as a renter, and those points still rent out at a premium.
    Well this is completely subjective and based on your anecdotal experience, so that value you find in BLT many do not find (there are a lot that complain of it's theme, etc). As far as I can tell Riviera points are going for as much at BLT and there are waitlists at both of the large rental agencies (though only my observations). Only time will tell what the 7 month window looks like for Riviera but summer is booking out pretty heavily there as people seem to want to stay (location or newness its impossible to say). I suspect Riviera will have people that love to stay there and those that don't but those that do will be enough to fill the holes by those to trade out.

    While you might not intend for it to come off this way it seems like you are suggesting since Riviera owners might want to do exactly what you want to do they will be limiting your ability to do so, which is sort of self-serving. People were buying BLT, SSR points to purposely Sleep Around, using your own suggestions that would imply those owners are being greedy too (buying the cheapest option to stay at more expensive places). In reality I don't think it throws the system out of balance nor are those owners greedy, but actually balances the system fills in those more expensive rooms that might not get booked freeing up rooms at other resorts.
     

    Firepath

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 22, 2012
    I'm not sure how Riviera owners trading out to save points is any different than Saratoga owners trading out because they don't want to stay at their home resort for whatever reason. It's going to be difficult for anyone who doesn't own where they prefer to stay.
     

    Ben E N

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 14, 2017
    Well this is completely subjective and based on your anecdotal experience, so that value you find in BLT many do not find (there are a lot that complain of it's theme, etc). As far as I can tell Riviera points are going for as much at BLT and there are waitlists at both of the large rental agencies (though only my observations). Only time will tell what the 7 month window looks like for Riviera but summer is booking out pretty heavily there as people seem to want to stay (location or newness its impossible to say). I suspect Riviera will have people that love to stay there and those that don't but those that do will be enough to fill the holes by those to trade out.

    While you might not intend for it to come off this way it seems like you are suggesting since Riviera owners might want to do exactly what you want to do they will be limiting your ability to do so, which is sort of self-serving. People were buying BLT, SSR points to purposely Sleep Around, using your own suggestions that would imply those owners are being greedy too (buying the cheapest option to stay at more expensive places). In reality I don't think it throws the system out of balance nor are those owners greedy, but actually balances the system fills in those more expensive rooms that might not get booked freeing up rooms at other resorts.
    This is based on the best piece of evidence that we have available, @skier_pete's excellently gathered evidence of how quickly rooms are getting booked up. BLT lake view studios disappear shortly after 7 months for the majority of the year. The cheaper standard view ones of course are gone well before then.

    I agree that this is all just a prediction, but it is one based on what information we currently have access to. @zavandor's post about the studio having slightly larger beds is the only piece that has me even slightly doubting that this will follow the pattern of the most expensive rooms going last that we have seen at all but the most exclusive of resorts.

    I am not implying that Riviera owners are being greedy, either. I am implying that Disney is setting up a system that is bound to at least in part fail, and that people who are buying into Riviera are for the most part unintentionally playing a role in that. I don't think people are spending $180 per point just to sleep around, but do feel that they will get sick of only 4 day trips when they could be getting 5-8 days by staying elsewhere.
     

    Ben E N

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 14, 2017
    Your changing your argument. I doubt many will buy points at RIV or GF just so they can use them at lower point resorts that would be a poor use of points. I would never buy points at RIV to use at SSR that I can assure you.
    I'm not quite sure why you aren't understanding the point I was making, so I don't know how to further respond to you.
     

    The Jackal

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Oct 24, 2017
    I'm not sure how Riviera owners trading out to save points is any different than Saratoga owners trading out because they don't want to stay at their home resort for whatever reason. It's going to be difficult for anyone who doesn't own where they prefer to stay.
    There are people who buy points and only stay at that resort. They there are people who buy points at one resort, but don’t mind staying at other resorts at 7 months. Then there are people who bought at one resort, but want to stay at others for one reason or another. DvC set up this timeshare program to allow trading to other resorts. It gives a 4 month home booking advantage. At 7 months any rooms open is fair game. No one can be upset with people for swapping resorts. There are people who own at VGC and stay at other resorts.
     
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    Spark65

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Sep 27, 2019
    I'm not quite sure why you aren't understanding the point I was making, so I don't know how to further respond to you.
    Your original point that I clearly quoted originally was your disappointment that RIV owners could book other resorts at 7 months. You made it clear it would hurt YOUR ability to do the same thing. That sounds to me like someone who feels he deserves better than others. Do you know what audacity means?

    Yes the hand slapping I get is worth my comment
     

    Ben E N

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 14, 2017
    Your original point that I clearly quoted originally was your disappointment that RIV owners could book other resorts at 7 months. You made it clear it would hurt YOUR ability to do the same thing. That sounds to me like someone who feels he deserves better than others. Do you know what audacity means?

    Yes the hand slapping I get is worth my comment
    That was not anywhere in what I stated. The exact words that I wrote were:

    I don't blame future Riviera owners for taking advantage of the opportunity to trade out, but I am frustrated with Disney for setting the price per night so high.
    The point I am trying to make here is that with pricing Riviera so high, there has been an imbalance in the system introduced. I am not sure why you are trying to turn this into a "me vs. them" sort of thing. I am not attacking Riviera owners in anyway. I am just making predictions about how people will want to spend their money in the coming years, and what impact it will have on the system as a whole. I am sorry if this hurt you in some way.
     

    Sandisw

    DVC Forums
    Moderator
    Joined
    Nov 15, 2008
    This is based on the best piece of evidence that we have available, @skier_pete's excellently gathered evidence of how quickly rooms are getting booked up. BLT lake view studios disappear shortly after 7 months for the majority of the year. The cheaper standard view ones of course are gone well before then.

    I agree that this is all just a prediction, but it is one based on what information we currently have access to. @zavandor's post about the studio having slightly larger beds is the only piece that has me even slightly doubting that this will follow the pattern of the most expensive rooms going last that we have seen at all but the most exclusive of resorts.

    I am not implying that Riviera owners are being greedy, either. I am implying that Disney is setting up a system that is bound to at least in part fail, and that people who are buying into Riviera are for the most part unintentionally playing a role in that. I don't think people are spending $180 per point just to sleep around, but do feel that they will get sick of only 4 day trips when they could be getting 5-8 days by staying elsewhere.
    I think you are underestimating the importance of resort preference and RiV owners buying knowing full well what it will cost to stay there.

    In most cases, the difference in points for RIV might reduce a trip by one night, not several as you suggest Using studios, 4 nights in a preferred view is 100 in summer. That same 100 only gets 5 at BCV or BLT LV or Poly. if a RiV owner gets lucky and can get a SV room, then there is no loss in nights as they will get 5 nights

    You consider the point cost at VGF to be high as well , but then justify people choosing to spend It there? What makes you think people at RIV don’t feel the higher point cost is worth it? You may not, but others will.

    Most DVC owners trade out at least some of the time, but many aren’t always just choosing the cheapest. If that were the case, SSR and OKW wouldn’t be the last to fill up.

    Disney created an imbalance with RIV owners being allowed to trade out but preventing new resale buyers not being able to trade in. I agree with that, but suggesting RIV owners will somehow trade out more often than VGF, Poly, or BLT owners whose charts are closer...just doesn’t make sense,
     
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    Ben E N

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 14, 2017
    I think you are underestimating the importance of resort preference and RiV owners buying knowing full well what it will cost to stay there.

    In most cases, the difference in points for RIV might reduce a trip by one night, not several as you suggest Using studios, 4 nights in a preferred view is 100 in summer. That same 100 only gets 5 at BCV or BLT LV or Poly. if a RiV owner gets lucky and can get a SV room, then there is no loss in nights as they will get 5 nights

    You consider the point cost at VGF to be high as well , but then justify people choosing to spend It there? What makes you think people at RIV don’t feel the higher point cost is worth it? You may not, but others will.

    Most DVC owners trade out at least some of the time, but many aren’t always just choosing the cheapest. If that were the case, SSR and OKW wouldn’t be the last to fill up.

    Disney created an imbalance with RIV owners being allowed to trade out but preventing new resale buyers not being able to trade in. I agree with that, but suggesting RIV owners will somehow trade out more often than VGF, Poly, or BLT owners whose charts are closer...just doesn’t make sense,
    I'm sure there are plenty of owners who will be happy with Riviera for a long time. There are plenty of positives to the resort that I do not blame some for enjoying. The people that I am more concerned about are those who are buying there only because it is the resort that Disney is pushing, not fully considering how expensive the rooms are compared to others. With it being the one resort that Disney is pushing, you can't deny that there is a large portion of owners like this.
    You are right that you would get just 6 nights at BWV or BVV for the price of 4 at Riv, but you could get close to 8 at OKW or SSR. BVV and BWV are decent, albeit not exact, comps due to them also being on the skyliner, and with even better access to Epcot.
    Your underestimation of how much the Riviera rooms cost, however, is exactly my point. At 22 or 23 points per night, it would be fine, but with an average cost of over 27 points per night, it is too high.

    I did not worry so much about GFV for two reasons. One is it is very small compared to most other resorts. It only has 47 total studios. The other is it is very expensive. This would imply that the majority of owners are buying there to stay there, and the data that I am seeing supports that. Riviera seems to be much larger, and by keeping their point cost lower and including more points per room to make up for it, they are trying to attract a lot of "general buyers" who might buy there to get into DVC and not just for the resort.

    I agree that the resale restrictions will throw things out of whack on both ends. This will most likely take longer to play out, though. My prediction is more related to what will happen 2 years or so out.
     

    Sandisw

    DVC Forums
    Moderator
    Joined
    Nov 15, 2008
    I'm sure there are plenty of owners who will be happy with Riviera for a long time. There are plenty of positives to the resort that I do not blame some for enjoying. The people that I am more concerned about are those who are buying there only because it is the resort that Disney is pushing, not fully considering how expensive the rooms are compared to others. With it being the one resort that Disney is pushing, you can't deny that there is a large portion of owners like this.
    You are right that you would get just 6 nights at BWV or BVV for the price of 4 at Riv, but you could get close to 8 at OKW or SSR. BVV and BWV are decent, albeit not exact, comps due to them also being on the skyliner, and with even better access to Epcot.
    Your underestimation of how much the Riviera rooms cost, however, is exactly my point. At 22 or 23 points per night, it would be fine, but with an average cost of over 27 points per night, it is too high.

    I did not worry so much about GFV for two reasons. One is it is very small compared to most other resorts. It only has 47 total studios. The other is it is very expensive. This would imply that the majority of owners are buying there to stay there, and the data that I am seeing supports that. Riviera seems to be much larger, and by keeping their point cost lower and including more points per room to make up for it, they are trying to attract a lot of "general buyers" who might buy there to get into DVC and not just for the resort.

    I agree that the resale restrictions will throw things out of whack on both ends. This will most likely take longer to play out, though. My prediction is more related to what will happen 2 years or so out.
    I have no idea what point chart you are looking at but the 2021 chart for RIV does not average 27 a night. Weekdays..using preferred are 17,19, 21, 22, 25 and 26...I am leaving out Xmas week, for the different seasons.

    BWV preferred for weekdays are 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19. Yes, summer there is a 7 point per night difference, but only 3 points in the first travel period. Someone staying in the 2nd travel period is spending only 4 points more...those differences are pretty reasonable..not something that is going to cause RIV owners to bail all the time. This again assumes an owner never gets a SV room,..those that do will not be spending a ton more than a few other places.

    I am just confused as why you think RIV owners would choose SSR or OKW any more often to get so more nights than any other DVC member? Do you? I mean, a BLT owner who chooses to spend points on theme park view would be in pretty much the same boat...hey, I can get more nights at SSR, why am I staying here? This argument about getting more nights holds true for most other resorts compared to those two. That will not be something unique to RIV.

    It still comes down to you believing that the majority of RIV owners were duped by Disney in buying there, and that they won’t like the resort enough to stay there,
     
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    Hjs33

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Feb 23, 2019
    There's an equal value trade into BLT, though. I know because I first stayed there as a renter, and those points still rent out at a premium. 21 points per night during the summer to walk to the Magic Kingdom and have a nice lake view is very appealing to many people.
    I am not saying Riviera is worthless, just that it is priced too high per night to be worth trading into. I cannot say the same about any other DVC property. Grand Floridian is a bit out of my price per night range, but with it being Disney's flagship resort, I can see where the value is. Other than sleeping five adults, I do not see the justification for putting such an extreme price on Riviera studios. This in turn throws a mostly balanced system out of whack, and all in the name of greed on Disney's part.
    If your so concerned about getting access to BCV or BWV then buy points there. Problem solved. Its very hypocritical for you to criticize other people for potentially trading out at 7 months when it’s exactly what you’re trying to do with your BLT points.

    Anyway, if any new sales are putting a strain on 7 month demand then I would say it’s Aulani. I’m sure most of the owners there did not buy with the intention of going there every year.
     

    Ben E N

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 14, 2017
    I have no idea what point chart you are looking at but the 2021 chart for RIV does not average 27 a night. Weekdays..using preferred are 17,19, 21, 22, 25 and 26...I am leaving out Xmas week, for the different seasons.

    BWV preferred for weekdays are 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19. Yes, summer there is a 7 point per night difference, but only 3 points in the first travel period. Someone staying in the 2nd travel period is spending only 4 points more...those differences are pretty reasonable..not something that is going to cause RIV owners to bail all the time. This again assumes an owner never gets a SV room,..those that do will not be spending a ton more than a few other places.

    I am just confused as why you think RIV owners would choose SSR or OKW any more often to get so more nights than any other DVC member? Do you? I mean, a BLT owner who chooses to spend points on theme park view would be in pretty much the same boat...hey, I can get more nights at SSR, why am I staying here? This argument about getting more nights holds true for most other resorts compared to those two. That will not be something unique to RIV.

    It still comes down to you believing that the majority of RIV owners were duped by Disney in buying there, and that they won’t like the resort enough to stay there,
    The point charts I have been strictly focusing on have been the summer time ones. Sorry I briefly mentioned that elsewhere but didn't further emphasize it later. The 27 point value was an average of 26 points for weekday and 30 for weekend studio costs.
    I agree that anybody can go to any resort. Those comparisons were done to show just how high Riviera rooms cost in general. I still think the comparison of Riviera to the other Epcot area resorts is the most significant. And yes, the basic feeling I have is that there will be owners who will buy direct there and end up surprised at how much more expensive per night it is and will look to go elsewhere, and that there will also not be an equal enough number of owners who will be interested in trading in. It's all obviously a lot of predictions based on extrapolating limited data from elsewhere, but its enough to create a hypothesis. I don't think anything can be done about it, as once the points for a resort are declared it's a done deal, but I thought it was something worth sharing out in the Mousecellanous forum.
     

    zavandor

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 22, 2011
    I think Riviera will be less popular than BCV and BWV, but middle of the pack overall. It has a high point chart, but once BWV and BCV have no availability it'll be the only resort with easy access to Epcot and DHS. With a lot going on there, it'll be very popular for years. And in 20 years time, when DVC will resell BCV and BWV with a doubled up point chart it'll appear as a bargain.
     

    drusba

    I went to Iowa once, and it was closed.
    Joined
    Aug 19, 1999
    Riviera is developing a problem that could impact 7-month reservations elsewhere. Tower and standard studios have already developed an 11-month issue, in that there have already been many days, particularly during the fall season, when Tower and standard studios have disappeared right at 8 a.m. 11-months out or even before. In essence, it appears that DVD is once again "overselling" studios by having too high a purchase price, too many points needed per night, and a too low minimum point purchase requirement, with the result that many are buying a relatively low number of points to get tower or standard studios and are now starting to find they cannot always get them at 11-months out.

    Perhaps the situation might improve as more units are declared and sales occur, but in the past, when a resort has developed an 11-month issue during the earlier sales periods, the problem has only ended up worse by the time the resort sells out. One result could be that many of those who cannot book something at 11-months out willl have to go elsewhere at 7-months out, e.g., they will book fewer nights than they want in a preferred studio at Riviera and then try to switch to a cheaper resort for all the nights they want at 7-months out.
     
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