Riveira and Boardwalk

[GrumpyInPhilly]

I may need to do some more investigation.

I get the generic Marriott page as well, not Cypress Harbour.

 

[havoc315]

Just to clarify, it’s less than 19 years that will left by the time someone can buy and have access.

And that could potentially be a psychological barrier for people. 20+ years is a lifetime! Under 20 years no longer feels like a lifetime. The magic of $1.99 vs $2.00.

 

[etemplet]

I've been away from Disboards for a long time and I am enjoying reading this thread. My wife and I are looking at well... I'm looking she is always in for more fun but I want to add at least 25 points to our 75 point Boardwalk. We really like the one bedrooms and I want to keep the 9 month window. I'm shopping right now and patience will get me what I want at the best price.

I'm reading about people considering DVC and such. I am so much happier not basing my decisions on being able to justify savings or value. Pure hedonism is how I roll. I can afford it and I want it. If we did not own DVC my wife and I absolutely would not stay at the Deluxe Hotels or even visit Disney as a vacation location very often but because we own we visit twice a year minimum. She loves it !!! Can't put a price on that. I look at DVC as my buying a second home and what a second home it is !!! My wife does embroidery and she makes so many shirts for us, she decorates our Balcony at Bay Lake duing out December stay. I can't put a price on that at all. It's her and I and it is great for us. My big decision for Disney is.... Do I want a One Bedroom Theme Park View at Bay Lake for December or a Studio? I can't justify a one-bedroom for my wife and I either but we love it !!! Same at Boardwalk.... we love the 1-bedrooms. and the WELCOME HOME !!!! If people knew how much DVC cost they would think I was plain crazy and an idiot besides. The world wants caviar at motel 6 prices and cheap is never cheap enough for them. My advice is to feel blessed if you can afford it and if you can afford it make the decision that will make you smile BIG. Good luck !! You only go around once !! Have fun !!!

 

[kboo]

Hopefully it spurs my wife and I to take vacations to a place that fits our needs. My wife and I move at different speeds so a place like WDW where I can wonder off early and meet up with her any time she wants fits us. Many vacation spots that does not work and there is nothing worse than sitting in a hotel room waiting for the other person to be ready to leave.

Substitute "husband" for "wife" and that would be us! But seriously, that did factor into our (ok "my") decision to buy DVC. After many years of marriage, and then with the addition of young kids several years ago, we realized that "family vacations" where we traded off bringing the family to work conferences was not really a vacation for either parent. Worked fine as a couple! We approached buying DVC (after renting and paying cash a few times with our young kids) as a way to have a vacation planned well in advance, so that the inevitable work schedule changes (can you take/switch call that week, etc) wouldn't prevent us from planning something.

I personally thought it would never average much more than $100/pt when it was first announced and it’s doing better than that. Heck, I paid $152/pt for it because we love it so much!

I had thought the same way when Riviera was coming on, and would have been happy to buy resale points to use at Riviera only, since I had grandfathered points. Even now I am hankering for an add on so we can be in larger units more often, since Riviera is our preferred resort for NYE.

I don't see why you'd buy DVC if you don't know how long you want it. That's a weird approach to such a big purchase to me, when you can just get a normal hotel like everyone else. Or a much nicer hotel, if money is no object.

We are at a point where we could stay in a much nicer hotel on cash and not really feel it, but it still doesn't feel like a good value to me, does that make sense? This was also a reason we bought DVC - we have rarely, if ever, paid for a suite in a hotel, but for some reason if it's on points and we have a choice between a studio, 1br or the occasional 2br, I feel better about having a choice. Our initial buy in at BLT was under $20k for a loaded contract, we got grandfathered points, and in the first few months of ownership, we had a stay in a 1BR and then a 2br over Thanksgiving (and then addonitis hit).

They are not great because they save you money. They don't save you money. Show me any timeshare owner who claims to spend less on vacations after they became owners, and I'll show you someone who isn't being honest with themselves.

The point of a timeshare is not to save money. I mean, I suppose it is possible. And yes, it is true I am "saving" on the lodging portion of my timeshare stays vs. just renting that some other way. But, I am taking many more vacations than I would if just left to my own devices. The point of a timeshare is that you are putting yourself in a use-it-or-lose-it situation, and that makes vacation something important that you plan for and plan other things around, rather than something you fit in when you have time.

THIS was it for us. When we bought in 5 years ago, DH and I had crazy work schedules, and it was really really hard to plan family time. My sister's family was also growing, and we were finally in a place financially where we could treat my parents (now just my dad) to some nicer vacations. (My inlaws are not disney people ...) anyway - we grew up with my mom planning timeshare vacations to get us all together at least once a year after we left home, and this was a great way to do it.

DH and I are now in a place where we have more control over our schedules and the last few years pushed us to a different view about work - we're lucky to have jobs we love, but they're still just jobs. And the planning of DVC, talking to the kids about their favorite resorts, things to do at WDW, etc. extends the fun. We've been venturing beyond our home resorts, and even beyond WDW (VGC recently, AUL in 2023!).

So, we have a backlog of "extra" weeks we have to try to burn through, and it is hard! But I am doing my level best.

So have we!! I think we have finally burned through them - we usually vacation at "magic" or premier or whatever the highest season is because of the kids school breaks:
2020 - BWV Xmas (st)
2021 - spring break: BCV, AKV, RIV (1br, 1br, st)
summer of Delta surge - BLT 1br
Omicron Xmas - RIV/VGF st/1br
2022 - spring break VGC st
summer family reunion - BCV (2br at 7 mo + a studio at 4 mo), VGF 2br

We aren't planning to be back at WDW until summer 2023 which feels like too long for me, but now I'm not sure if we have enough points to do Thanksgiving and Xmas at WDW...

 

[kboo]

OP: Is Disney ROFR'ing either resort? You may be able to lowball offer either of them and see what happens. The problem is that a RIV resale seller is more likely to have outstanding loans and thus less ability to go down in price. A BWV seller, on average, may be looking at all upside on the resale and may be more willing to negotiate.

That said: I have long thought that BWV/BCV resale are a little overpriced given how long they have left on the contracts. Similarly, RIV resale seems a little overpriced given the restriction - I thought would settle closer to low 100s because of the restriction. And maybe it will still go there, but the resale contracts now are probably distressed. (One of our VGF contracts was like that - the sellers actually had to pay $ to close.)

Depending on the # of points you want, how big is the spread between RIV direct and resale? If it's not so big, I might think about RIV direct *if you don't own points elsewhere that can trade*. I love Riviera, and am happy to stay there 90% of the time, but I'd have a lot of FOMO about other resorts that I couldn't book. (That said - the response is to rent out RIV points at a premium and then rent or transfer another resort, which is possible too.)

We looked into BLT resale v RIV direct when we ended up buying RIV - at the time, it was about a $5000 difference for the same # of points. To us, we considered whether that $5000 was worth:
11 mo priority at an EP/HS resort
3rd (and new) home resort

We already had unrestricted resale points at BLT and VGF; adding on to BLT would have made it easier for us to book 1-2 br and GV for family stays, but those points would only have been good for the O14.

 

[Sparkle_Steffie]

There is so much data available it is both a curse and a benefit.

I just ran the original sales price of some resorts at initial offering through an inflation calculator and you can purchase some of the 2042 resorts for an equivalent price today when you consider inflation..

Now the original price gave you 50 years of use compared to 19 now which is a huge factor if you bought with the intention of selling to recoup your cost. I am not sure people buying in 1996 or 2000 were expecting the DVC timeshares would be different than other timeshares and retain value though

Now I have to think if this information makes the 2042 resorts viable candidates of is the length of the contract a larger factor that should cut the price below the rate of inflation?

I used BWV at a price of $67 and BRV at $75 with inflation through October 2022 that would be around $130. There are contracts with points at $130 or less. How much is having only 38% of the time worth? I believe I saw a contract at $108 that still might not offset the contract length.

I have to think about it and bounce it off some friends

I agree that there is a lot of value left in 2042 resorts!

I'm waiting to pass ROFR on a 25pt BWV contract that was $3,475 total. I plan to visit for 3 nights every year. Considering the low buy in price and small dues ($213.25 for 2023), I'm basically getting to stay for a long weekend at a deluxe EPCOT resort for $400/year. That's cheaper than the Value Resorts!

I'll be in my late 50s when 2042 rolls around, and anticipate that my vacation habits will be very different by then. If I'm still happy with DVC, I can always purchase another contract at that time. But I'm not going to lose sleep trying to predict how AARP Stephanie is going to feel in 20 years.

 

[sethschroeder]

And that could potentially be a psychological barrier for people. 20+ years is a lifetime! Under 20 years no longer feels like a lifetime. The magic of $1.99 vs $2.00.

I think 20 years also breaks down sort of like this:

• You have kids
  • You buy when they are 2 gets you until they graduate in college
• You are about to retire
  • That gets you from age 60 to 80 which is the end of your life

Now with 10 years its like this:

• You have kids
  • You now get through elementary school
• You are about retire
  • It gets you to 70 years old when you feel like you will be traveling still but want less not more expenses (with contract having run out)

I do think as we push past 20 years there is starting to be an impact. I don't have doomsday on 2042 contracts though because if they drop out the floor I will buy and either go or rent my points. Heck I still work but I can work from Disney if its cheap enough and still visit the parks at night.

 

[havoc315]

I think 20 years also breaks down sort of like this:

• You have kids
  • You buy when they are 2 gets you until they graduate in college
• You are about to retire
  • That gets you from age 60 to 80 which is the end of your life

Now with 10 years its like this:

• You have kids
  • You now get through elementary school
• You are about retire
  • It gets you to 70 years old when you feel like you will be traveling still but want less not more expenses (with contract having run out)

I do think as we push past 20 years there is starting to be an impact. I don't have doomsday on 2042 contracts though because if they drop out the floor I will buy and either go or rent my points. Heck I still work but I can work from Disney if its cheap enough and still visit the parks at night.

Agree with everything you just said. There is a right price for everything. If it was currently 2035 and BCV contracts were $50 per point, they might be a great value. All depends on the price. (Except for the last couple years where even $5 per point might be too much, since you also have to pay closing costs.... Imagine just 1 use year left, 50 point contract, $250, plus $1000 closing costs plus $8 dues per point... so you're effectively paying $33 per point for a single use).

I do think the 20 year mark may be a significant psychological threshold, and 10 years may be a massive threshold when we get there.

 

[808blessing]

In 2035 with 50 points, you could rent out 3 nights for at least 1500 a year (inflation) which would be way better than selling for $2500 (above example) minus commission. I think points will go for higher. ETA. oops then there are dues so maybe not.

 

[Sandisw]

In 2035 with 50 points, you could rent out 3 nights for at least 1500 a year (inflation) which would be way better than selling for $2500 (above example) minus commission. I think points will go for higher. ETA. oops then there are dues so maybe not.

I agree there will come a time with the 2042 resorts that selling will be tough because there will be a much smaller market for them.

Owners who still own, and don't want to use, may very well be better off just trying to rent, even if just to cover the MF's at that point....or, find someone willing to take it over, even if for $0...just to be done.

 

[RoseGold]

I agree there will come a time with the 2042 resorts that selling will be tough because there will be a much smaller market for them.

Owners who still own, and don't want to use, may very well be better off just trying to rent, even if just to cover the MF's at that point....or, find someone willing to take it over, even if for $0...just to be done.

They still have a baseline, which is the cash rates for those hotels, which just keeps going up, up, up. Obviously, they go to 0 eventually, that's math.

But a starter contract with a few years left on it might be quite appealing to some. For many years, as long as dues stay relatively low, these contracts have value.

Add in the low chart and more and more points in the system. BW/BC will be tougher and tougher to book, and these points could be really valuable.

Any DVC or timeshare in general runs the risk that dues go out of control, and the whole thing was a bad idea. I would argue Vero has done just that. But that has nothing to do with the 2042 part, and the rest of DVC has held with reasonable dues, at least so far. Not that if there were an issue I believe I have any way to fix this as an owner, given how DVC is set up.

 

[Sandisw]

They still have a baseline, which is the cash rates for those hotels, which just keeps going up, up, up. Obviously, they go to 0 eventually, that's math.

But a starter contract with a few years left on it might be quite appealing to some. For many years, as long as dues stay relatively low, these contracts have value.

Add in the low chart and more and more points in the system. BW/BC will be tougher and tougher to book, and these points could be really valuable.

Any DVC or timeshare in general runs the risk that dues go out of control, and the whole thing was a bad idea. I would argue Vero has done just that. But that has nothing to do with the 2042 part, and the rest of DVC has held with reasonable dues, at least so far. Not that if there were an issue I believe I have any way to fix this as an owner, given how DVC is set up.

Of course there could be some buyers but the number of owners who might want to sell with less than 10 or 5 years will most likely be a lot more than the buyers looking to buy such a short term contract.

Which is why selling will be difficult, even if it’s priced competitively.

Even now I have seen reports of contracts sitting for longer than a seller wants because no one is offering, even at a low price.

I do agree that BWV and BCV will be more popular to that small pool of buyers than the other 2042.

 

[RoseGold]

Of course there could be some buyers but the number of owners who might want to sell with less than 10 or 5 years will most likely be a lot more than the buyers looking to buy such a short term contract.

Which is why selling will be difficult, even if it’s priced competitively.

Cheaper and less buy in seems to do just fine in DVC. I don't think starter contracts will have a problem at all.

 

[havoc315]

They still have a baseline, which is the cash rates for those hotels, which just keeps going up, up, up. Obviously, they go to 0 eventually, that's math.

But a starter contract with a few years left on it might be quite appealing to some. For many years, as long as dues stay relatively low, these contracts have value.

Add in the low chart and more and more points in the system. BW/BC will be tougher and tougher to book, and these points could be really valuable.

Any DVC or timeshare in general runs the risk that dues go out of control, and the whole thing was a bad idea. I would argue Vero has done just that. But that has nothing to do with the 2042 part, and the rest of DVC has held with reasonable dues, at least so far. Not that if there were an issue I believe I have any way to fix this as an owner, given how DVC is set up.

Remember, any sale involves closing costs. So if you sold a 100 point contract for $1 per point, that would still actually cost the buyer closer to $1100... closer to $11 per point.

Thus, you get to the point the last couple of years where having to pay closing costs will destroy any benefit of the purchase.

A starter contract with just a few years will likely have it's purchase price tightly tied to the rental price market.
In other words, if there are 3 years left on the contract... And dues are $10 by then, and rental rates are $23 per point, and knowing you have to pay closing costs, you likely won't see resell higher than about $30 per point in this example.

 

[RoseGold]

Remember, any sale involves closing costs. So if you sold a 100 point contract for $1 per point, that would still actually cost the buyer closer to $1100... closer to $11 per point.

Thus, you get to the point the last couple of years where having to pay closing costs will destroy any benefit of the purchase.

I can make the same argument for all the tiny contracts, and they seem to sell just fine as well.

 

[Sandisw]

I can make the same argument for all the tiny contracts, and they seem to sell just fine as well.

With no contracts for sale yet that have 10 or fewer years, small contracts now is a completely different situation.

 

[havoc315]

I can make the same argument for all the tiny contracts, and they seem to sell just fine as well.

??? When was the last time a tiny contract with only 2-3 years left sold?

Even a tiny contract with 20 years left, isn’t tiny. A 50 point contract, with 20 years left… $1,000 closing costs — that only adds $1 per point per year to the cost.

Now, a 100 point contract with only 2 years left— $1,000 closing costs would add $5 per point per year. Big difference.

 

[Nursemanit]

Except no one should be paying 1k in closing costs - there are title companies that will do the whole closing for $550- only one charges near 1k and they are the slowest one.