RFID wristbands for resort guests

[FireDancer]

It will come down to ROI. If Disney feels they will benefit financially from this system despite the cost they will implement it. That cost includes the continued operation and support of the system.

All the gnashing of teeth against the system really won't matter in the end. I have managed a lot of projects much like this and the consensus in the meetings is the vocal opponents will, in the end, use the system. In this case very few (read: not enough to matter) will actually not go to Disney because they implement RFID in one form or another no matter what they spew on message boards like this.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the Disneyphile, despite the impression given on boards like these, almost certainly makes up a minuscule portion of the Parks & Resorts division's bottom line. If Disney will save money on the vast majority of guests (which are the once in a lifetime or once every 5-10 years guests) at the expense of annoying some of "us" they will implement whatever that is. In this case RFID.

I've lost count on how many times I've heard "If Disney ever <insert whatever here> I'll never go again." In the end Disney does that whatever and the same people still go.

 

[YankeePrincess]

I just think it's easier to put a family's worth of cards safely in your wallet than to carry around a family's wristbands. I don't want to just put them in my pocket. I might not want to wear them all, depending on how they fit and how they fasten.

Ahhh I see! I thought that you couldn't take the band off or something. I didn't understand that one.

 

[YankeePrincess]

As far as the argument of Disney "tracking you", don't you think Disney already does when you use your KTTW? When I took the Keys to the Kingdom Tour, they the guide said that Disney keeps track of where the guests are at all times in order to keep the crowd flowing and making sure they have characters, etc. around those areas. I don't mind Disney tracking me if it means they can better run the park, knowing where the most population of guests are, etc. to keep things running smoothly.

 

[Azree]

I am sorry but why can't a FP runner take the wrist bands? You don't have to keep them on the entire time you are in the park do you? Will some alarm go off if you take them off or something?? I don't get this argument.

If they're the type that I think they'll be, then they're not meant to come off.

I think they'll either be paper like this:

Or plastic/rubber with a permanent snap, like this:

You can embed barcodes with personal/ticket info on these and then just scan them for data.

Either way - if you take them off they're destroyed for the day and you won't be able to use them/have to get a new one.


I suppose they could go with the real fancy RFID ones like this:

But if they do that I have a hunch that they'll allow you to either choose card or band (defeating the whole purpose, IMO - not to mention that they'd probably be pretty cost-prohibitive), and the hand-wringing here will all be over nothing.

 

[grimley1968]

I am sorry but why can't a FP runner take the wrist bands? You don't have to keep them on the entire time you are in the park do you? Will some alarm go off if you take them off or something?? I don't get this argument.

I have no idea if you could take them off easily or not, but it sure would be a lot less convenient than simply keeping KTTW cards with one of the adults, as we do now. I hardly even notice they're in my pocket, except when it comes time to get FP's. 4 or more wristbands in a pocket, with RFID equipment in them, would be a bit of a hassle compared to 4 KTTW cards. I frankly don't understand why anyone would be by this argument.

As it is now, we don't let our girls carry their cards, and they only see them when they enter the park. It's just too risky at their ages. If wristbands can be easily removed, it's just one more thing parents would have to watch out for, or we'd have to carry around wristbands to keep them from being lost. Then the "interactive experience" is lost. I think that's kind of an extreme change for the worse, if the only benefit from the guests' perspective would be a more personalized "interactive experience."

IMO, this is one of those cases where if something isn't broken, it doesn't need to be fixed. Tweak the KTTW cards to use barcodes, or even RFID (if it can be done without making the cards heavy)? Go for it, if that helps prevent the "demagnification" that can occur with mag stripes. But replacing KTTW cards with an RFID wristband is a terrible idea IMHO, for a lot of reasons, all of which have been mentioned above by me and others.

 

[YankeePrincess]

I don't know I guess these things just don't bother me. As long as I am in Disney and on vacation away from work I am happy! These bands aren't even out yet and everyone is jumping to conclusions as to how things are going to be or if they have to wear them all day, etc. I say just try them out and then see how it goes. They may be something great or they may suck but I think instead of everyone getting upset over the whole thing they should at least try them out.

 

[waynesgirl]

If they're the type that I think they'll be, then they're not meant to come off.

I think they'll either be paper like this:

Or plastic/rubber with a permanent snap, like this:

You can embed barcodes with personal/ticket info on these and then just scan them for data.

Either way - if you take them off they're destroyed for the day and you won't be able to use them/have to get a new one.


I suppose they could go with the real fancy RFID ones like this:

But if they do that I have a hunch that they'll allow you to either choose card or band (defeating the whole purpose, IMO - not to mention that they'd probably be pretty cost-prohibitive), and the hand-wringing here will all be over nothing.

If my friend did truly get the experimental wristbands, then he said it was a thick, resnappable plastic. Again, I will post pics for your viewing pleasure.

 

[linzbear]

Yeah, I think I would like to have a wristband for me, and maybe DH. I would definitely want something easier to carry for my kids, whether it be a card or a FOB, I don't care

 

[grimley1968]

As far as the argument of Disney "tracking you", don't you think Disney already does when you use your KTTW? When I took the Keys to the Kingdom Tour, they the guide said that Disney keeps track of where the guests are at all times in order to keep the crowd flowing and making sure they have characters, etc. around those areas. I don't mind Disney tracking me if it means they can better run the park, knowing where the most population of guests are, etc. to keep things running smoothly.

KTTW cards only provide a snapshot of where you are at the time you use them. It's not real-time tracking. RFID can, but not necessarily will, provide real-time tracking. I have no problem with tracking a la snapshots. But being made to wear a wristband for the length of stay, just to enjoy a park, resorts, etc. bothers me. Some people may enjoy that, but I wouldn't. As I mentioned above, it just smacks of the movie Idiocracy to me (where the population all have barcodes tattooed on their wrists to identify and track them).

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but one aspect I've not seen much about is the cost to replace the gate and POS technology. They are built at WDW to handle cards with mag stripes at the hotels, hotel rooms, POS locations everywhere and of course the park gates. I have a real tough time believing Disney is going to ditch all that expensive equipment just to force this controversial and unnecessary choice on people. If KTTW cards go away, how do onsite resort guests get into their rooms? I have an even tougher time believing they'll put some kind of RFID reader in every single door of every single resort room within WDW property. Besides my opposition to wristbands, color me skeptical about them completely switching to wristbands from tried-and-true (and paid for) KTTW card technology.

 

[pilferk]

If they're the type that I think they'll be, then they're not meant to come off.

I think they'll either be paper like this:

Or plastic/rubber with a permanent snap, like this:

You can embed barcodes with personal/ticket info on these and then just scan them for data.

Either way - if you take them off they're destroyed for the day and you won't be able to use them/have to get a new one.


I suppose they could go with the real fancy RFID ones like this:

But if they do that I have a hunch that they'll allow you to either choose card or band (defeating the whole purpose, IMO - not to mention that they'd probably be pretty cost-prohibitive), and the hand-wringing here will all be over nothing.

I seriously doubt they'd go with the paper or permanent snap version. Paper...because the longevity of the stock isn't enough to cover guests who are staying for a long period of time. Permanent snap because they are not comfortable, or flexible, enough for guests who are going to be there for a long duration (5 to 7 days).

The last option (the "lance armstrong" type bands) or the one depicted in the article on the first page (the "pleather" snap bands) would make much more sense. They can be put on and off, they offer a great freedom/utility compromise, and they're really no less comfortable to wear than a bracelet or a watch.

 

[pilferk]

KTTW cards only provide a snapshot of where you are at the time you use them. It's not real-time tracking. RFID can, but not necessarily will, provide real-time tracking. I have no problem with tracking a la snapshots. But being made to wear a wristband for the length of stay, just to enjoy a park, resorts, etc. bothers me. Some people may enjoy that, but I wouldn't. As I mentioned above, it just smacks of the movie Idiocracy to me (where the population all have barcodes tattooed on their wrists to identify and track them).

Do you carry a cell phone?

Not to get all "big brother", but you can be tracked through your daily life, pretty much, at this point. You're probably NOT, because nobody cares enough about your daily movement to do it. But you could be.

And the system offers some tangible benefits to Disney in terms of logistical planning, guest service opportunities, etc. It's not all that far fetched. And if Disney promises guests some tangible REWARDS for using the system, I'd guess most people probably will. Maybe they'll offer some sort of legacy "opt out" for those opposed to the system...but you'll opt out of the benefits it offers, too (the expanded photopass, ride videos, potential for personalized experiences, etc). You'll probably get a KTTW card with a less robust RFID system embedded in it, so they can't track you, but you can make use of the turnstiles and new room "keys".

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but one aspect I've not seen much about is the cost to replace the gate and POS technology. They are built at WDW to handle cards with mag stripes at the hotels, hotel rooms, POS locations everywhere and of course the park gates. I have a real tough time believing Disney is going to ditch all that expensive equipment just to force this controversial and unnecessary choice on people. If KTTW cards go away, how do onsite resort guests get into their rooms? I have an even tougher time believing they'll put some kind of RFID reader in every single door of every single resort room within WDW property. Besides my opposition to wristbands, color me skeptical about them completely switching to wristbands from tried-and-true (and paid for) KTTW card technology.

But..they had to (at some point) make the change from manual paper stock to the mechanism to read KTTW cards, too. And they've changed the hotel "locking" equipment at least 3 times (and maybe more) since the resorts hotels opened. They're certainly not still using 1970's tech in either place.

You can't poo poo capital investment simply because there is another system already in place. If Disney views this system as having real benefit...the costs of replacing existing equipment won't deter them.

I'd guess the current system's implementation costs has long since been amortized off the books.

 

[grimley1968]

You can't poo poo capital investment simply because there is another system already in place. If Disney views this system as having real benefit...the costs of replacing existing equipment won't deter them.

The "real benefit" of a wristband system as the primary means of park entry, charging to the room, and room entry, escapes me.

 

[pilferk]

The "real benefit" of a wristband system as the primary means of park entry, charging to the room, and room entry, escapes me.

Ability to quickly bring additional resources on line to provide quest service (either additional ride capacity or by redirecting staffing).

Ability to gear entertainment offerings (streetmosphere) to the most crowded parts of the parks.

Ability to track merchandise sales, or potential merchandise sales, around more crowded parts of the park.

Ability to ferret out additional revenue generators around either "choke points" or "hive points" within the park.

Those are just a few.

Trust me when I tell you there are MBA's, logistical planners, and business/data analysts who would froth at the mouth with the kinds of things they could do with that data. Not just in real time, but with retrospective analysis.

Disney would find it valuable, I'm pretty sure.

The fact is: If Disney implements the system, it means they've determined it has real benefit. If they don't, it doesn't (or at least not in relation to the costs of the system). We don't know, because we don't have their data.

 

[grimley1968]

Ability to quickly bring additional resources on line to provide quest service (either additional ride capacity or by redirecting staffing).

Ability to gear entertainment offerings (streetmosphere) to the most crowded parts of the parks.

Ability to track merchandise sales, or potential merchandise sales, around more crowded parts of the park.

Ability to ferret out additional revenue generators around either "choke points" or "hive points" within the park.

Those are just a few.

Trust me when I tell you there are MBA's, logistical planners, and business/data analysts who would froth at the mouth with the kinds of things they could do with that data. Not just in real time, but with retrospective analysis.

Disney would find it valuable, I'm pretty sure.

The fact is: If Disney implements the system, it means they've determined it has real benefit. If they don't, it doesn't (or at least not in relation to the costs of the system). We don't know, because we don't have their data.

Many of the benefits you mentioned already exist with KTTW cards. It's not real-time data (though pretty close to it), but then someone can simply look and see which parts of the park are crowded at any given time, and also go with historical data. Switching to a whole entry system and scrapping the old system, which works quite well, is a bit extreme just to improve merchandise sales by a fraction of a percentage point. I'm not poo pooing capital investments; just ones that don't make much sense from a ROI perspective.

Also looking at it from Disney's perspective (and I hope they're taking this into consideration): what happens to guest numbers overall when people who simply hate wearing wristbands (I wear a watch but hate wristbands except for a few hours at a time like waterparks) stop coming to Disney? That could be a major blow to them. Wristbands violate my sense of "personal space" much more than carrying a card around in my pocket, and I'm willing to bet I'm not alone.

I really hope this is just another rumor.

 

[pilferk]

Many of the benefits you mentioned already exist with KTTW cards. It's not real-time data (though pretty close to it), but then someone can simply look and see which parts of the park are crowded at any given time, and also go with historical data. Switching to a whole entry system and scrapping the old system, which works quite well, is a bit extreme just to improve merchandise sales by a fraction of a percentage point. I'm not poo pooing capital investments; just ones that don't make much sense from a ROI perspective.

Not really.

Some examples:

1) Disney can track wait times, in real time (rather than the "card to the front" system they use now...which is woefully inefficient and innacurate). You can more quickly respond to those wait times, say at BTMR, by bringing on another train. You can also eliminate the staff's need to pass out the cards, count guests, scan the cards at the end of the line, etc. You gain efficiency AND pare down staffing needs. Yes, it's a small gain. Amortize it over all the parks, all those attractions effected, every day, 365 days a year, and it adds up quick.

2) There is an unexpected bottleneck in the animation plaza at DHS. You can dispatch the streetmosphere folks there to keep guests occupied while whatever operational hurdle is causing the bottle neck disipates. You can also quickly see and RESPOND to whatever's causing the bottleneck.

3) Your POS is telling you that Mickey bars are selling like crazy (info they have now) in Tommorowland, but you can also see you have a line 20 deep waiting at the carts. You can dispatch a "runner", with a portable system, to sell off either another cart or a portable, battery operated, cooler, in the same vicinity.

Keep in mind...for Disney...a "Fraction of a % point" would be a pretty big annual number.

You can't do the above NEARLY as efficiently without real time data. You can do it..but it's more work, less efficient, and carries a much larger inherent delay.

You can't underestimate the value of real time data, but you also can't underestimate the value of the retrospective analysis. There's NO denying the RFID method provides a significant upgrade in the amount and kinds of data Disney can accumulate. That's just true.

You can speculate that's not of value to them..but it's just that: speculation. I firmly admit I'm speculating as to it's value, too. Only Disney will ultimately let us know which one is right...by whether they institute the system or not. All I know is I've seen other businesses use the system to great effect.

I'm not saying Disney WILL. I'm saying it's easy to look at the opportunities and think they might. Saying "you don't see any reasons they might do it" doesn't make sense to me...because there seem to be some obvious ones. And I'm sure Disney has a longer list of not so obvious ones in their hip pocket (like real time guest feedback with trackable outcomes).

Your opinion (and mine) about ROI are really not relevant...because we don't have their data or any idea what their long term business strategies/goals are (aside from the obvious "make a profit").

Also looking at it from Disney's perspective (and I hope they're taking this into consideration): what happens to guest numbers overall when people who simply hate wearing wristbands (I wear a watch but hate wristbands except for a few hours at a time like waterparks) stop coming to Disney? That could be a major blow to them. Wristbands violate my sense of "personal space" much more than carrying a card around in my pocket, and I'm willing to bet I'm not alone.

I really hope this is just another rumor.

It could be a major blow to them, or it could be a blip on the radar...which is why you'd think they'll do a stunning amount of market research to determine if the system works for them. You might not be alone...but the question is: Are "you" a large enough group to matter to them. Provided they see enough benefit, are "your" objections from a large enough group that they think they'd offset the benefits. WE don't know the answer to that question.

Disney isn't going to roll this out without doing guest and market research. Of that, I'm sure (if they haven't done it already). I've taken more surveys, concerning the oddest of topics, at WDW than pretty much anywhere else about anything else. I'm sure this would be (or was) the same.

 

[FireDancer]

Also looking at it from Disney's perspective (and I hope they're taking this into consideration): what happens to guest numbers overall when people who simply hate wearing wristbands (I wear a watch but hate wristbands except for a few hours at a time like waterparks) stop coming to Disney? That could be a major blow to them. Wristbands violate my sense of "personal space" much more than carrying a card around in my pocket, and I'm willing to bet I'm not alone.

I really hope this is just another rumor.

While I think the number of people who would actually follow through on the threat to boycott Disney parks because of a wristband is so minuscule it doesn't matter the easiest solution is to give guests the choice of a wrist band or RFID card.

If offering the choice isn't cost effective I think it would revert back to not mattering what people say about hating the wrist bands because they will ultimately accept them as part of the Disney experience.

The people who would never go to Disney again because they have to wear a wristband would be standing on that Disney bus to the MK right next to the guest who said they'd never go again if they closed the Adventurer's Club.

 

[pilferk]

While I think the number of people who would actually follow through on the threat to boycott Disney parks because of a wristband is so minuscule it doesn't matter the east solution is to give guests the choice of a wrist band or RFID card.

If offering the choice isn't cost effective I think it would revert back to not mattering what people say about hating the wrist bands because they will ultimately accept them as part of the Disney experience.

The people who would never go to Disney again because they have to wear a wristband would be standing on that Disney bus to the MK right next to the guest who said they'd never go again if they closed the Adventurer's Club.

Exactly.

Not to be callous, but: Disney doesn't care about "you", the individual,when making operational decisions like this. They do their darndest to make you think otherwise, but it's smoke and mirrors. It's really that simple.

"You" have to be in a large enough group to prove you'll effect their bottom line. If "you're" not, they just don't care. They'll weigh the benefits, look at potential/projected "guest loss", and if the benefits outweigh their projections....they'll do whatever it is they please.

The fact is: Disney isn't going to sweat the loss of a few hundred guests who have an opposition to the new system. Or a few thousand. Tens of thousands might make them raise an eyebrow for a couple seconds. Hundreds of thousands would probably warrant some meetings, consideration, and a bit of rethinking.

Disney is going to implement the system they think benefits them the most. They'll offer enticements/features/benefits to "convince" guests it's the best system for them, too.

 

[grimley1968]

Disney isn't going to roll this out without doing guest and market research. Of that, I'm sure (if they haven't done it already). I've taken more surveys, concerning the oddest of topics, at WDW than pretty much anywhere else about anything else. I'm sure this would be (or was) the same.

I'll agree with you there. However, it would seem that this research would have been going on for years before implementation of such a system. In all of our in-the-park surveys, website surveys, phone surveys, etc. we have never seen this posed as a question, and we do as many surveys as we can. We get questions about interest in DVC, upcoming potential trips, parade times, etc. The fact that we've never been asked about this issue, or even had it floated as a trial (lead) balloon to us, leads me to believe this is years away from coming to fruition, if ever.

If someone asks me in a survey while in 90 degree heat with 90% humidity whether I want to wear any kind of wristband, I would emphatically say "No thanks - the card works just fine in my pocket."

 

[chartle]

1. While I think the number of people who would actually follow through on the threat to boycott Disney parks because of a wristband is so minuscule it doesn't matter the easiest solution is to give guests the choice of a wrist band or RFID card.

2. The people who would never go to Disney again because they have to wear a wristband would be standing on that Disney bus to the MK right next to the guest who said they'd never go again if they closed the Adventurer's Club.

1. or a small fob that could be put on a lanyard. More lanyard sales.

2. or people who don't want "the man" to know where they are and won't do the finger scan.

 

[pilferk]

I'll agree with you there. However, it would seem that this research would have been going on for years before implementation of such a system. In all of our in-the-park surveys, website surveys, phone surveys, etc. we have never seen this posed as a question, and we do as many surveys as we can. We get questions about interest in DVC, upcoming potential trips, parade times, etc. The fact that we've never been asked about this issue, or even had it floated as a trial (lead) balloon to us, leads me to believe this is years away from coming to fruition, if ever.

Ditto (at least on the questions...no idea on potential implementation timeframe). Keep in mind, though, they could do closed market research (like they did with Fastpass) and select guest testing (ditto FP) BEFORE they roll out the "day guest" surveys.

I've been asked questions that you could SHOEHORN into some semblance of referring to this.

But I think they were ACTUALLY referring to stuff like "My Pal Mickey", the "Kim Possible" game, etc.

No way to be sure, but that's what I suspect.