Retirement......pensions?

Keep in mind as well too, that teachers overall have a lower life expectancy than other professions - we're in the top ten - we fluctuate around 7-8 usually. We outlive cops and firefighters, but die earlier than dentists and air traffic controllers. So less years for us to collect that pension. Think of the savings tax payers:lmao:

..that is a very odd statistic....
 
You are keeping 97% and have a fully funded retirement. And you sound angry about that? I bet you don't pay much for your health coverage either. Why should the tax payers pay ours and yours too?
Teacher pensions have always been something of a trade-off: We've had low salaries (I just completed my 19th year, and I bring home a bit more than 2K/month), but the retirement made it worthwhile. Would you, the tax payer, rather raise teacher salaries and get rid of pensions? You can't have it both ways. I personally would not teach for the amount of money I earn -- not if the pension wasn't involved.

I'm not sure exactly what percentage of my salary is deposited into my pension fund, but I know it's much more than 3%. By the way, I'm a taxpayer too.
My last job had a pension and when I left and I opted to take a lump sum rollover to an IRA instead of waiting until I'm 65 to collect a piddly amount each month. Being only 30 I wasn't convinced the pension would still be there when I'm 65. A bird in the hand and all that!
Without knowing your details, I suspect you made the right choice.
Because that is what was negotiated when they were hired?

I love all this self righteous tax payer garbage.
Bingo. When you've been receiving ____ as a no-cost-to-you-benefit and SUDDENLY you start paying for it, it stings. Doesn't have a thing to do with anyone else's compensation package.

Also, people tend to overlook a couple less-than-ideal details about pensions:
- A pension is a gamble. I'll have my 30 years in at age 57. If I begin collecting my pension and die at age 58, I will lose big-time. I'll never get back even a portion of what I paid, and I cannot leave it to my children. On the other hand, if I live to be 100, I'll collect more than I deposited. It's impossible to know right now whether I'll win or lose.
- My pension is MINE. That is, it's connected to MY LIFE. Unless I agree to give up a portion of it (as a Survivor Benefit), my husband will receive nothing if I die before him.
- To collect a full pension, I must teach 30 years IN MY STATE. Several times my husband's considered a job in another state, but we've determined that it's better for us to stay here (or at least in a border-county). Since I have a STATE pension, if I leave, I start all over again.
- If I work less than 30 years, the pension will be significantly reduced. I'm at the 20-year mark now and am very healthy, so chances are pretty good I'm going to make it, but what about people who begin teaching at age 40 or people who become disabled? They won't be collecting.

All in all, if I were young and just starting my first professional job AND COULD CHOOSE, I'd keep my money in my own pocket (keep in mind, it's MY money in that pension fund -- not money above and beyond my paycheck), and I'd invest it myself. I'd have more control and more independance. More responsibility too, that's true.
I love it too, but not in the same sense that you do. There is nothing wrong with being upset when the people that you employ (public servants) earn more and receive more in benefits than their private sector counterparts.
If I earned a private-sector paycheck, I wouldn't complain about having fewer benefits.
Well you are really talking about different regions because no way does a teacher make 40K around here, not even as a starting salary!--many are well over $100,000.
Yes, it is regional, but very few areas pay high salaries for teachers. A starting salary around 23-25K and a top salary of around 60-70K is typical for most areas.
For those with private pensions, I would also make backup plans.
I am doing just this. No one should have ALL his or her retirement eggs in one basket, no matter how secure the basket may appear. If my pension were to disappear, it would definitely hurt me -- but it wouldn't mean I'd have to work 'til the day I die.
Keep in mind as well too, that teachers overall have a lower life expectancy than other professions - we're in the top ten - we fluctuate around 7-8 usually. We outlive cops and firefighters, but die earlier than dentists and air traffic controllers. So less years for us to collect that pension. Think of the savings tax payers:lmao:
I've never heard that. What's your source?
 
I'm the flip side of you Mrs. Pete.

I married a man who made the military a career. I did not want to work civil service, so I took more pay and just rolled 401Ks and 403bs into IRAs each time we'd move. That gave me the option of choosing which funds my money was invested in.

Doing it this way also allowed DH and I to save like crazy for about 15 years to fund our nest egg.

If I died tomorrow, my family would have it made.

If I became disabled and could no longer work, I'd be fine.

If I suffered something catastrophic that put me into a nursing home for the rest of my days, that's covered as well. No waiting the 50-90 days a lot of long term care policies require.

That said, I'm admittedly weird!

I've enjoyed my long career as a registered nurse and am working on my Family Nurse Practitioner program currently. I want to work as a nurse practitioner until I die. Sure, perhaps part time, so I can take up a hobby, but that's my plan! LOL
 
For those with private pensions, I would also make backup plans. When I worked for a mutual fund company, large corporations were changing their DC plans to DB plans a lot. I'm a writer and wrote all about the changes, which were as fair as possible. Pensions as they used to be are too expensive to maintain in years to come. I expect government plans to change eventually as well, but there are tax payers and politicians and states involved. Just MHO.

That said, DH gets a 4% match into his 401k on the first 4%, as well as a 10% company contribution every quarter (very generous). I get a 6% match on the first 6% (still pretty good for part-time).

This is very, very true. In my state, NJ, the Governor is trying to retroactively change the pensions promised to state workers and teachers. In a recent "State of the States" report done by Meredith Whitney (financial analyst who became famous during the financial crisis)....well, there is some serious trouble coming down the pike.

During the recession, while consumers have cut back on spending and are paying down debt....the country and the states have cranked up their spending, which isn't uncommon, but some of the states were so deeply indebted already, that things are now much, much worse.

NJ was in the most trouble according to this report. The promises made to the state workers and teachers simply can't be kept. There's no way. We'll go bankrupt and have massive muni bonds default.

Now I'm not saying that these workers won't get *anything*....but there may be a clawback on what they've been promised. And I'd expect that they'll see a much higher premium for their healthcare benefits in retirement than they expected.....way, way higher. We can't carry it.

Now, for the record, this is really unfair if you ask me.....but whether it's fair or unfair doesn't matter when you have to start cutting those checks....and keep cutting them. And we simply can't afford it.
 

I have a good pension coming, barring something disastrous of course. It's hard to ignore what has happened with some people's pensions in recent years. :eek:

I also contribute regularly to a 403B (currently about 12% with a small 1% match) and a Roth IRA.

Yep, this is us. DH lost his pension at his 29 year mark but not before the company bigwigs stripped the pension funds to line their bathrooms with gold and then claimed the company was bankrupt. :confused3
All pensions were wiped out and after the bankruptcy there was a long layoff where we ended up having to cash out his 401.

As it sits now we're paying off huge old business debt and due to layoffs over the years have nothing set aside for retirement.
Yes, we're going to be one of those stupid nearly elderly people counting on social security. LOL Kinda horrifying really.
 
Now, for the record, this is really unfair if you ask me.....but whether it's fair or unfair doesn't matter when you have to start cutting those checks....and keep cutting them. And we simply can't afford it.
But NOT cutting those checks isn't an option either. I just checked my paycheck stub, and I see that $288 was deducted last month from my paycheck. That's $288 that I earned. Yes, some people want to say, "Taxpayer's money, taxpayer's money", and obviously the money comes from taxes, but I went into school a whole bunch of days and earned it -- it wasn't a gift. $288 that I had no option but to deposit into the state pension plan.

Math time:

Let's round that off to $250 since I'm a little over halfway through my career. Let's say that I deposited $250/month for 30 years (which is what it takes to get a teacher pension). Over the years I'll deposit $75,000, which will be returned to me in the form of my pension.

A quick check with an online calculator tells me that if I'd had control of that money myself, I'd have a 401K worth $569,831.98 at the end of that same 30 years. After all, the power of compound interest over 30 years is significant. (Of course, this assumes that I am disciplined enough to save the money.)

The state can't decide now -- now that I'm 19 years into a 30-year teaching career that they're just going to keep my money. They owe it to me, and actually they're doing pretty well because a whole lot of teachers deposit into the fund but don't work enough years to ever receive a check -- the state keeps their money. Also, I see that I'd have to live about 29 years in retirement to break even -- but if I live only five years or so, the state'll keep the balance of my money.

Yes, I see two flaws in my math, but for the purposes of this discussion I can't see a way to do any better:

1. I have pretended that interest rates will always increase the investment; it is possible that the state could LOSE part of my investment. Still, I'm guaranteed to have that pension whether they win or lose on the stock market. When they required me to pay into the pension fund, they took on that responsibility.

2. I've ignored that the money will continue to gain interest after I've retired, so it'll actually end up being worth more than $569,831.98 in the long run.

I hear what you're saying when you say that we can't afford to cut the checks, and I don't pretend to have the answer . . . but we also can't go back on what was promised to people like me.
 
But NOT cutting those checks isn't an option either. I just checked my paycheck stub, and I see that $288 was deducted last month from my paycheck. That's $288 that I earned. Yes, some people want to say, "Taxpayer's money, taxpayer's money", and obviously the money comes from taxes, but I went into school a whole bunch of days and earned it -- it wasn't a gift. $288 that I had no option but to deposit into the state pension plan.

Math time:

Let's round that off to $250 since I'm a little over halfway through my career. Let's say that I deposited $250/month for 30 years (which is what it takes to get a teacher pension). Over the years I'll deposit $75,000, which will be returned to me in the form of my pension.

A quick check with an online calculator tells me that if I'd had control of that money myself, I'd have a 401K worth $569,831.98 at the end of that same 30 years. After all, the power of compound interest over 30 years is significant. (Of course, this assumes that I am disciplined enough to save the money.)

The state can't decide now -- now that I'm 19 years into a 30-year teaching career that they're just going to keep my money. They owe it to me, and actually they're doing pretty well because a whole lot of teachers deposit into the fund but don't work enough years to ever receive a check -- the state keeps their money. Also, I see that I'd have to live about 29 years in retirement to break even -- but if I live only five years or so, the state'll keep the balance of my money.

Yes, I see two flaws in my math, but for the purposes of this discussion I can't see a way to do any better:

1. I have pretended that interest rates will always increase the investment; it is possible that the state could LOSE part of my investment. Still, I'm guaranteed to have that pension whether they win or lose on the stock market. When they required me to pay into the pension fund, they took on that responsibility.

2. I've ignored that the money will continue to gain interest after I've retired, so it'll actually end up being worth more than $569,831.98 in the long run.

I hear what you're saying when you say that we can't afford to cut the checks, and I don't pretend to have the answer . . . but we also can't go back on what was promised to people like me.

I think your complaint should be with your union. In the case of New Jersey the money simply is not there. Teachers in my district just completed a 3 year contract that gave them a 4% increase EVERY YEAR. Granted our Board of Ed (many of whom have spouses who work for the district - how's that for a conflict of interest)negotiated the contract. However, in these times of extreme unemployment 4% raises each year was outrageous! The union should have considered public opinion and not just the dollars. People got angry and defeated our school budget which never happens in our town. And, all those people who lost "private sector" jobs were also made "promises" by their employers. Public employees should not be immune to the effects of a bad economy simply because they are public employees.
 
But NOT cutting those checks isn't an option either. I just checked my paycheck stub, and I see that $288 was deducted last month from my paycheck. That's $288 that I earned. Yes, some people want to say, "Taxpayer's money, taxpayer's money", and obviously the money comes from taxes, but I went into school a whole bunch of days and earned it -- it wasn't a gift. $288 that I had no option but to deposit into the state pension plan.

Math time:

Let's round that off to $250 since I'm a little over halfway through my career. Let's say that I deposited $250/month for 30 years (which is what it takes to get a teacher pension). Over the years I'll deposit $75,000, which will be returned to me in the form of my pension.

A quick check with an online calculator tells me that if I'd had control of that money myself, I'd have a 401K worth $569,831.98 at the end of that same 30 years. After all, the power of compound interest over 30 years is significant. (Of course, this assumes that I am disciplined enough to save the money.)

The state can't decide now -- now that I'm 19 years into a 30-year teaching career that they're just going to keep my money. They owe it to me, and actually they're doing pretty well because a whole lot of teachers deposit into the fund but don't work enough years to ever receive a check -- the state keeps their money. Also, I see that I'd have to live about 29 years in retirement to break even -- but if I live only five years or so, the state'll keep the balance of my money.

Yes, I see two flaws in my math, but for the purposes of this discussion I can't see a way to do any better:

1. I have pretended that interest rates will always increase the investment; it is possible that the state could LOSE part of my investment. Still, I'm guaranteed to have that pension whether they win or lose on the stock market. When they required me to pay into the pension fund, they took on that responsibility.

2. I've ignored that the money will continue to gain interest after I've retired, so it'll actually end up being worth more than $569,831.98 in the long run.

I hear what you're saying when you say that we can't afford to cut the checks, and I don't pretend to have the answer . . . but we also can't go back on what was promised to people like me.



You were not putting in $250/month 19 years ago. You would have seen that money decimated with two stock market crashes. You will get full or partial healthcare paid for. That could dwarf your retirement check.

Those who paid in SS have it far worse. Their employer reduces their salary by the employers contribution and then you still have to pay your contribution. If both were $250/month that person would be just above minimum wage. You are getting a far better deal than the SS contributors and then they still pay for medicar that requires a second plan to be purchased.
 
Let's say that I deposited $250/month for 30 years (which is what it takes to get a teacher pension).
Sorry for my ignorance about this, but I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. Does it really take 30 years of service to see ANY of the pension you've accrued? Or does it take 30 years of service to see FULL pension? So if someone only teaches 29 years, they get nothing at all? I was fully vested in my pension plan after 5 years, but it sounds like you aren't fully vested in your pension plan until after 30 years.

Again, I apologize for what might be a dumb question. Your post was very thought-provoking and I wanted to be sure I understood this part of it.
 
do you have a pension you will get from your job when you retire? or are you funding your retirement completely on your own?

how much do you put toward that retirement fund per week or month or whatever?
not looking for a dollar amount but a percent.
like do you put 5% of your gross income?

just curious.

I have both.

My company has a pension which I am fully vested in. Since I started working here late, I probably won't get a full pension since I won't have the 30 years service it requires so I'll be prorated.

I also invest in my 401K plan. right now I'm at 8%. my company will match dollar for dollar up to 6%. I've been trying to increase it but since I've to college tuition this is where it will probably stay for the next few years.
 
This is very, very true. In my state, NJ, the Governor is trying to retroactively change the pensions promised to state workers and teachers. In a recent "State of the States" report done by Meredith Whitney (financial analyst who became famous during the financial crisis)....well, there is some serious trouble coming down the pike.

NJ was in the most trouble according to this report. The promises made to the state workers and teachers simply can't be kept. There's no way. We'll go bankrupt and have massive muni bonds default.

Now I'm not saying that these workers won't get *anything*....but there may be a clawback on what they've been promised. And I'd expect that they'll see a much higher premium for their healthcare benefits in retirement than they expected.....way, way higher. We can't carry it.

Now, for the record, this is really unfair if you ask me.....but whether it's fair or unfair doesn't matter when you have to start cutting those checks....and keep cutting them. And we simply can't afford it.


I think the problem why the teachers are having a hard time swallowing this in NJ DVCgal is that up until Gov. Whitman took office State pensions were over 150% fully funded. up until that time it was illegal to use the state pension plans to fund any thing else. So some one came in, changed the rules and then used the money up and now they are trying to say "oh sorry, but hey you've got no more money".
and the teachers are being made the scape goats. Why isn't anyone in this state asking where the over fund went to and who blew it?

IMO, this is like you having a bank account, some one coming in using your money with the promise of paying it back and then after they blow it all on the slots, saying oh hey sorry but we can't pay your money back.

And then using the excuse "everyone's got to cut back". Had the powers to be not played with the money in the first place, state pensions would be funded.

One thing I am so happy my union did was right after the ENRON debatacle, we negotiated (and won) a concession on our pension.

My company can never, ever borrow, use the pension as collateral, withdraw any money from the employees pension. Our pension must at all times be 110% fully funded and we have 2 independant auditors audit the pension once every 3 years. We also negotiated that if the company went belly up the union would become primary creditor and would have to be paid prior to any other claimants.
 
You are keeping 97% and have a fully funded retirement. And you sound angry about that? I bet you don't pay much for your health coverage either. Why should the tax payers pay ours and yours too?

The deal has always been for state workers in many places that they willingly accept pay that is well below what they would make in the private sector in exchange for superb benefits. (Which it was presumed the state would be able to get at a discount using non-profit/government means, thus saving the taxpayers money in the long run.)

If the pay remains horrible and the benefits aren't any good. . .well. I think it will work for the states so long as the recession lasts and jobs are scarce. Once the economy is better, they will probably sorely regret their actions as the good workers will flee with nothing to keep them working for low wages and no good benefits.
 
But NOT cutting those checks isn't an option either. I just checked my paycheck stub, and I see that $288 was deducted last month from my paycheck. That's $288 that I earned. Yes, some people want to say, "Taxpayer's money, taxpayer's money", and obviously the money comes from taxes, but I went into school a whole bunch of days and earned it -- it wasn't a gift. $288 that I had no option but to deposit into the state pension plan.

Math time:

Let's round that off to $250 since I'm a little over halfway through my career. Let's say that I deposited $250/month for 30 years (which is what it takes to get a teacher pension). Over the years I'll deposit $75,000, which will be returned to me in the form of my pension.

A quick check with an online calculator tells me that if I'd had control of that money myself, I'd have a 401K worth $569,831.98 at the end of that same 30 years. After all, the power of compound interest over 30 years is significant. (Of course, this assumes that I am disciplined enough to save the money.)

The state can't decide now -- now that I'm 19 years into a 30-year teaching career that they're just going to keep my money. They owe it to me, and actually they're doing pretty well because a whole lot of teachers deposit into the fund but don't work enough years to ever receive a check -- the state keeps their money. Also, I see that I'd have to live about 29 years in retirement to break even -- but if I live only five years or so, the state'll keep the balance of my money.

Yes, I see two flaws in my math, but for the purposes of this discussion I can't see a way to do any better:

1. I have pretended that interest rates will always increase the investment; it is possible that the state could LOSE part of my investment. Still, I'm guaranteed to have that pension whether they win or lose on the stock market. When they required me to pay into the pension fund, they took on that responsibility.

2. I've ignored that the money will continue to gain interest after I've retired, so it'll actually end up being worth more than $569,831.98 in the long run.

I hear what you're saying when you say that we can't afford to cut the checks, and I don't pretend to have the answer . . . but we also can't go back on what was promised to people like me.

I completely and totally agree with you. Based on your responses here, I can only imagine that you're a fabulous teachers....one of the really good ones.

In my state (NJ), we had two governors....one from each side of the aisle (so this is not political) and they both made changes to the state pension plans. Those changes, that were set into practice 20 years ago....doomed us. Really, we're screwed. Here's a brief history of how we got here. Pulled from a Money Magazine article on underfunded state pension programs:

Here ya go.......



"To figure out how such a wealthy state (with a median household income of $65,933, New Jersey ranks No. 1) dug itself into this hole, set the clock back almost 20 years.



In 1990 the country was hit by a recession, and the new Democratic governor, James Florio, responded with a wildly unpopular $2.8 billion income and sales tax increase to balance the budget. Two years later, facing another budget shortfall, he turned to the state pension system for help. With almost unanimous support in the legislature, he pushed through the Pension Revaluation Act of 1992.

We'll spare you the minutiae of pension accounting and just say that the law permitted the state to recognize investment gains in the fund more quickly than under previous rules. It also lifted the projected rate of return on the fund's investments to 8.75% from 7% (since lowered to 8.25%). These "adjustments" had a big impact: According to an official Benefits Review Task Force report published in 2005, they allowed the state to cut its pension contributions by more than $1.5 billion in 1992 and 1993.

Republican Christine Todd Whitman, running on a tax-cutting platform, defeated Florio in the 1993 governor's race. To help pay for her promised tax cuts, Whitman, like her predecessor, turned to the pension fund. In 1994, at her urging, the legislature adopted another pension "reform" act that allowed her to reduce state and local contributions to the plan by nearly $1.5 billion in 1994 and 1995, according to the task force report. Florio's and Whitman's accounting changes were "the one-two punch from which the retirement system has never recovered," says Douglas Forrester, who was the assistant state treasurer under Kean.


"Seeking to make up lost ground without putting up more money, the state's leaders looked to the magic of the stock market. In 1997 New Jersey sold $2.75 billion of bonds paying 7.6% interest, putting the proceeds into the pension fund to be invested for higher returns.

At that time Whitman said the ironically named Pension Security Plan would save taxpayers about $45 billion. It hasn't worked out that way. The fund has earned less than 6% annually since the bonds were issued.

"This is classically referred to as arbitrage," says U.S. Rep. Leonard Lance, a Republican who served in the New Jersey legislature from 1991 through 2008. "It's a questionable strategy in the private sector, and it's certainly not acceptable as a matter of public policy."

That wasn't the state's last venture into high finance. The system, along with almost every other investor, suffered sharp losses after the dotcom bust of 2001. Democrat James McGreevey, who became governor in 2002, hoped that professional money managers would improve the plan's returns. At the time New Jersey was the only state other than Texas to run its pension fund without outside help.

McGreevey appointed Orin Kramer, a money manager who had been finance chair of his unsuccessful 1997 gubernatorial campaign, as head of the State Investment Council, which sets policy for the pension plan. Kramer pushed the council to turn over some of the fund's assets to Wall Street professionals and to diversify into alternative investments such as hedge funds and private equity. But it took time for Kramer to devise a strategy and put it into action, so money didn't flow to alternative investments until 2006, on the eve of the bear market that would crush nearly all asset categories.

"Our asset-allocation model was based on the idea that there was no correlation between our alternatives and bonds and equities," says James Marketti, retired president of Communications Workers of America Local 1032, who has been a member of the state's investment council since September 2008. "It turns out they were perfectly correlated."

For all the miscues, New Jersey's pension woes can't be blamed on particularly poor investment results. An examination of state reports shows that the fund's returns have more or less tracked the broad stock market's. The real problem has been the underfunding.

Meanwhile, the obligations keep mounting: Even while they were neglecting pension contributions, New Jersey politicians were sweetening the pot. In 2001 benefits for the state's two largest groups of workers, government employees and teachers, were increased by 9%, creating an additional $4.2 billion in liabilities. In 1999 the state approved a "20 and out" measure that allowed firefighters and local police to collect pensions equal to 50% of their pay after 20 years of service - a perk previously available only to the state police. Benefits added since 1999 have increased liabilities by more than $6.8 billion, according to official estimates.

Today New Jersey seems locked in a downward spiral. "New Jersey and many other systems have negative cash flows, meaning that contributions are less than the benefits we pay out," says William Clark, director of the New Jersey Division of Investment, which manages the pension fund. "You can't make your money back when it's flowing out of the system."


This is me again.....

Keep in mind, this was written *two* years ago, and things have gotten much worse. Markedly worse. Going forward, new state workers and teachers are going to end up with Defined contribution plans like the rest of us. And they're going to end up paying much more of their health care costs.....during their working years and in retirement.

Here's the real troubling part for people with pensions in my state, and trust me, we have a lot of friends and some family in this boat......our Governor Chris Christie is not only looking to change pension plans for new hires, but also to change those with existing contracts and those already retired.

Our pension plan is slated to go bankrupt by 2020. Even after the two governors mentioned in the blurb....who raided the pension to pay for budget shortfalls and tax cuts, and increased the projected returns to decrease the states pension liabilities.......the next two governors have not paid into the pension plan at all. So, all that money they are taking from the employees for their pension....they are using elsewhere to balance their budget. It should be criminal, but in many states, it's not.

Like I said, it's not fair at all....and it's going to further impact our deteriorating education system, but there you have it.

Welcome to the "New Normal".
 
"To figure out how such a wealthy state (with a median household income of $65,933, New Jersey ranks No. 1) dug itself into this hole, set the clock back almost 20 years.



In 1990 the country was hit by a recession, and the new Democratic governor, James Florio, responded with a wildly unpopular $2.8 billion income and sales tax increase to balance the budget. Two years later, facing another budget shortfall, he turned to the state pension system for help. With almost unanimous support in the legislature, he pushed through the Pension Revaluation Act of 1992.

We'll spare you the minutiae of pension accounting and just say that the law permitted the state to recognize investment gains in the fund more quickly than under previous rules. It also lifted the projected rate of return on the fund's investments to 8.75% from 7% (since lowered to 8.25%). These "adjustments" had a big impact: According to an official Benefits Review Task Force report published in 2005, they allowed the state to cut its pension contributions by more than $1.5 billion in 1992 and 1993.

"This is classically referred to as arbitrage," says U.S. Rep. Leonard Lance, a Republican who served in the New Jersey legislature from 1991 through 2008. "It's a questionable strategy in the private sector, and it's certainly not acceptable as a matter of public policy."

That wasn't the state's last venture into high finance. The system, along with almost every other investor, suffered sharp losses after the dotcom bust of 2001. Democrat James McGreevey, who became governor in 2002, hoped that professional money managers would improve the plan's returns. At the time New Jersey was the only state other than Texas to run its pension fund without outside help.

McGreevey appointed Orin Kramer, a money manager who had been finance chair of his unsuccessful 1997 gubernatorial campaign, as head of the State Investment Council, which sets policy for the pension plan. Kramer pushed the council to turn over some of the fund's assets to Wall Street professionals and to diversify into alternative investments such as hedge funds and private equity. But it took time for Kramer to devise a strategy and put it into action, so money didn't flow to alternative investments until 2006, on the eve of the bear market that would crush nearly all asset categories.

"Our asset-allocation model was based on the idea that there was no correlation between our alternatives and bonds and equities," says James Marketti, retired president of Communications Workers of America Local 1032, who has been a member of the state's investment council since September 2008. "It turns out they were perfectly correlated."

For all the miscues, New Jersey's pension woes can't be blamed on particularly poor investment results. An examination of state reports shows that the fund's returns have more or less tracked the broad stock market's. The real problem has been the underfunding.

Meanwhile, the obligations keep mounting: Even while they were neglecting pension contributions, New Jersey politicians were sweetening the pot. In 2001 benefits for the state's two largest groups of workers, government employees and teachers, were increased by 9%, creating an additional $4.2 billion in liabilities. In 1999 the state approved a "20 and out" measure that allowed firefighters and local police to collect pensions equal to 50% of their pay after 20 years of service - a perk previously available only to the state police. Benefits added since 1999 have increased liabilities by more than $6.8

This is me again.....

Keep in mind, this was written *two* years ago, and things have gotten much worse. Markedly worse. Going forward, new state workers and teachers are going to end up with Defined contribution plans like the rest of us. And they're going to end up paying much more of their health care costs.....during their working years and in retirement.

Here's the real troubling part for people with pensions in my state, and trust me, we have a lot of friends and some family in this boat......our Governor Chris Christie is not only looking to change pension plans for new hires, but also to change those with existing contracts and those already retired.

Our pension plan is slated to go bankrupt by 2020. Even after the two governors mentioned in the blurb....who raided the pension to pay for budget shortfalls and tax cuts, and increased the projected returns to decrease the states pension liabilities.......the next two governors have not paid into the pension plan at all. So, all that money they are taking from the employees for their pension....they are using elsewhere to balance their budget. It should be criminal, but in many states, it's not. Like I said, it's not fair at all....and it's going to further impact our deteriorating education system, but there you have it.

Welcome to the "New Normal".


And see, then you get the Gov's on both sides screaming that the public service workers have to "make concessions". Well how about this, how about you stop using my money that is supposed to go to our pension to patch holes in your budget.

Now the school systems have suedGov. Christie and won. The state supreme court has mandated that Christie must give back at least 500 million dollars to education. He has to 7/1/2011 to comply and the teachers union is hauling him to court to force him to pay the states obligations to the pension fund.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...funds-overruled-by-new-jersey-high-court.html

So it will be very interesting. No body is willingly going to give up money they earned without fighting for it. whether right or wrong. Now we see this playing out in the courts.
 
And see, then you get the Gov's on both sides screaming that the public service workers have to "make concessions". Well how about this, how about you stop using my money that is supposed to go to our pension to patch holes in your budget.

Now the school systems have suedGov. Christie and won. The state supreme court has mandated that Christie must give back at least 500 million dollars to education. He has to 7/1/2011 to comply and the teachers union is hauling him to court to force him to pay the states obligations to the pension fund.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...funds-overruled-by-new-jersey-high-court.html

So it will be very interesting. No body is willingly going to give up money they earned without fighting for it. whether right or wrong. Now we see this playing out in the courts.

It should be against the law for states to raid these pension funds. But when revenues go down, or there are "tax cuts" promised that aren't paid for.....the money has to come from somewhere, and guess where they get it? Pension funds. They either raid the funds, or they don't make the contributions.

Having said that.....there have been promises made to these workers that absolutely will not be met. Well, I guess they *could* be fulfilled, but if you all think that the cuts in education and local services are bad *now*. Just wait. People in my town were complaining about having three days last summer where we didn't have garbage pick-up....thanks to furloughed town employee days. It's going to get much, much worse as the huge number of Baby Boomers start retiring.

People have no idea just how bad things will get. And while we're already seeing population migration from states with high taxes to those with low taxes.....get ready to see that number skyrocket.

If NJ was to even think about fulfilling these promises, we're going to see our taxes go through the roof....and services cut to the bone.

They money is simply not there. Not even close.

This has all been coming for a long time....all you can do if you have a pension is save as much as you can outside the pension while still enjoying life. We don't even have pensions and still save as much as we can.....because the writing has been on the wall for some time.
 
Having said that.....there have been promises made to these workers that absolutely will not be met. Well, I guess they *could* be fulfilled, but if you all think that the cuts in education and local services are bad *now*. Just wait. People in my town were complaining about having three days last summer where we didn't have garbage pick-up....thanks to furloughed town employee days. It's going to get much, much worse as the huge number of Baby Boomers start retiring.People have no idea just how bad things will get. And while we're already seeing population migration from states with high taxes to those with low taxes.....get ready to see that number skyrocket.

This has all been coming for a long time....all you can do if you have a pension is save as much as you can outside the pension while still enjoying life. We don't even have pensions and still save as much as we can.....because the writing has been on the wall for some time.

Isn't it like watching a horrible accident and you can stop it. I know so many of these baby boomers and not only are they worried about their pension, most of them really haven't saved much on the outside thinking their pension combine with their house and with social security would give them a comfortable retirement. Now they see all of that pulled out from under their feet. :sad1:
 
The deal has always been for state workers in many places that they willingly accept pay that is well below what they would make in the private sector in exchange for superb benefits. (Which it was presumed the state would be able to get at a discount using non-profit/government means, thus saving the taxpayers money in the long run.)

If the pay remains horrible and the benefits aren't any good. . .well. I think it will work for the states so long as the recession lasts and jobs are scarce. Once the economy is better, they will probably sorely regret their actions as the good workers will flee with nothing to keep them working for low wages and no good benefits.

You are exactly right!
 
I have a pension and a 401K, non matched. I put 16% in my 401K.
 
I think your complaint should be with your union. In the case of New Jersey the money simply is not there. Teachers in my district just completed a 3 year contract that gave them a 4% increase EVERY YEAR. Granted our Board of Ed (many of whom have spouses who work for the district - how's that for a conflict of interest)negotiated the contract. However, in these times of extreme unemployment 4% raises each year was outrageous! The union should have considered public opinion and not just the dollars. People got angry and defeated our school budget which never happens in our town. And, all those people who lost "private sector" jobs were also made "promises" by their employers. Public employees should not be immune to the effects of a bad economy simply because they are public employees.
I don't think we're having the same discussion at all. I'm not saying I should be immune from bad times; I'm saying I should be immune from losing my pension because it is MY earned money, not a gift above and beyond my salary. You can't force people to put earned money into a specific investment and then refuse to pay out of that investment. If I choose how to invest my money and I lose it, I'm to blame. If the state takes it away from me and loses it, they're responsible and have to make it right.

Also, you're barking up the wrong tree: Like the majority of American teachers, my state doesn't have unions. And we've had a salary freeze for three years; coupled with an increased cost of benefits, we are making less than we did a couple years ago.
You were not putting in $250/month 19 years ago. You would have seen that money decimated with two stock market crashes. You will get full or partial healthcare paid for. That could dwarf your retirement check.

Those who paid in SS have it far worse. Their employer reduces their salary by the employers contribution and then you still have to pay your contribution. If both were $250/month that person would be just above minimum wage. You are getting a far better deal than the SS contributors and then they still pay for medicar that requires a second plan to be purchased.
You're right that I was paying less than $250 when I was a new teacher, but I'll be paying more than that when I'm a 29 year teacher (in fact, I'm paying 288/month now). I'm figuring 250's a mid-point number good enough for a quick run-down. You're right that I would've seen a downturn in the stock market crashes.

By the way, I AM one of the people paying into SS. In some states, teachers aren't part of that system. In my state we pay into BOTH the teacher pension plan AND Social Security. So we have BIG deductions, but we can -- theoretically -- draw from both.
Sorry for my ignorance about this, but I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. Does it really take 30 years of service to see ANY of the pension you've accrued? Or does it take 30 years of service to see FULL pension? So if someone only teaches 29 years, they get nothing at all? I was fully vested in my pension plan after 5 years, but it sounds like you aren't fully vested in your pension plan until after 30 years.
Not a dumb question. A teacher in my state can draw a full pension, which includes basic medical, after 30 years of service. A teacher can draw an almost-full pension (but no medical) after 25 years of service. Prior to that point, it isn't worth anything -- a teacher with fewer years could draw a small pension, but it'd be enough for a dinner out once a month, not living expenses. Without reaching 25 years, there's no point to stay in education. And if you do 25 years (assuming you're healthy), you're going to want to do 5 more for the health care.

If you look back 20-30 years, almost no one reached 30 years. Teaching at that point was a job for middle/upper class young women -- white women -- who went to college, married midd/upper class young men with college degrees, then worked a few years 'til they had a child. And then they quit working. So the state paid out FEW pensions. In fact, it was a gold mine: A woman who paid into the pension fund for a few years, then left . . . collected nothing. Ever. Today things are different: Most teachers are still women, but most expect to have a full career -- so more are reaching 30 years, and the state is paying out more in pensions.
I think the problem why the teachers are having a hard time swallowing this in NJ DVCgal is that up until Gov. Whitman took office State pensions were over 150% fully funded. up until that time it was illegal to use the state pension plans to fund any thing else.
I am firmly convinced that New Jersey is just on a different plane. I can never relate to anything dealing with New Jersey.
In my state (NJ), we had two governors....one from each side of the aisle (so this is not political) and they both made changes to the state pension plans. Those changes, that were set into practice 20 years ago....doomed us. Really, we're screwed.
That's criminal mis-management. Did the governers who led the state down this path suffer any consequences? I can only assume that people allowed the governer to "get away with it" because 20 years ago economic times were good, and people were convinced that it was going to last forever.

And thanks.
 
[/B]7750]AIf you look back 20-30 years, almost no one reached 30 years. Teaching at that point was a job for middle/upper class young women -- white women -- who went to college, married midd/upper class young men with college degrees, then worked a few years 'til they had a child. And then they quit working. So the state paid out FEW pensions. In fact, it was a gold mine: A woman who paid into the pension fund for a few years, then left . . . collected nothing. Ever. Today things are different: Most teachers are still women, but most expect to have a full career -- so more are reaching 30 years, and the state is paying out more in pensions. I am firmly convinced that New Jersey is just on a different plane. I can never relate to anything dealing with New Jersey.That's criminal mis-management.

Did the governers who led the state down this path suffer any consequences? I can only assume that people allowed the governer to "get away with it" because 20 years ago economic times were good, and people were convinced that it was going to last forever.

And thanks.


Not one bit. Not only did they not suffer any consequences for raiding the pension funds, I firmly believe that our current Gov has gone out of his way to vilify and blame the entire states budget crisis on the teachers.

Like I said, I can fully understand how p.o ed the teachers are, especially those who are planning on retiring soon. These people paid into their pension plans, they did not get a vote on whether or not these elected officials should use the money to plug holes in the budget. Now their only recourse is to sue and have the states higher courts force the Gov to put the money back into the pension.

as dvcgirl said, the next 10 years will be interesting.
 


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