Response to ADA Suit

[ttintagel]

The discussion, both here and at Disney, seems to be happening under the [false] assumptions that:

• All accommodations needed or wanted involve, or seek, faster access
• Autism/developmental disorders and mobility problems are the only disabilities
• All the GAC did was provide faster access
• Only children have disabilities
• Rigorous, training and support of CM's with the goal of consistent application isn't the #1 most important key to making any system work

Disney is also being short-sighted if they don't think they've made a TON of money on their reputation as a destination that's friendly to people with disabilities. I know I've chosen a Disney park as a destination over others in the past on the basis of that reputation alone, and I know I'm far from the only one.

 

[Kellykins1218]

Disney is also being short-sighted if they don't think they've made a TON of money on their reputation as a destination that's friendly to people with disabilities. I know I've chosen a Disney park as a destination over others in the past on the basis of that reputation alone, and I know I'm far from the only one.

They still are a destination that's friendly to people with disabilities

 

[MickeyWheels]

One more thing.

When I talked about kids stubbornly staying alive with a wink, I was in no way being derogatory or suggesting children should die. I was being sarcastic regarding my own child's situation, when the doctors are constantly wrong re her prognosis/life expectancy. She is in 7 organ failure and survived a failed organ transplant. In reality it is a miracle that she is alive and that she lives as well as she does, but I have no level of denial that she will be with us for long, despite my fervent desires that she will live forever.

There are many many parents with children like mine who continue to bring their children to Disney in order to live life to the fullest.

______________
I LOVE your comment! My child forgot to follow her diagnosis as well. She has beat the odds and will continue to do so for years to come I hope! We live daily thankful for the extra time but living like it could be our last because that is the reality! I love kids who are stubborn!!!!

 

[AnAmericanInDisney]

Displayed wait times at rides are often incorrect. Why doesn't the autism lawsuit use that (a study; they could have people online submit actual vs displayed wait times) to show that Disney does not provide parity to kids who can't wait in lines?

 

[MickeyWheels]

Curiosity question...... what portions of the lawsuit do people feel are justified (if any)?

 

[mttmilner]

The discussion, both here and at Disney, seems to be happening under the [false] assumptions that:

• All accommodations needed or wanted involve, or seek, faster access
• Autism/developmental disorders and mobility problems are the only disabilities
• All the GAC did was provide faster access
• Only children have disabilities
• Rigorous, training and support of CM's with the goal of consistent application isn't the #1 most important key to making any system work

Disney is also being short-sighted if they don't think they've made a TON of money on their reputation as a destination that's friendly to people with disabilities. I know I've chosen a Disney park as a destination over others in the past on the basis of that reputation alone, and I know I'm far from the only one.

If the accommodation needed or wanted is not faster access then what is it? I can't think of an instance when I have heard any of the plaintiffs ask for anything but faster access.

Autism / developmental disorders and mobility problems are by no means the only disabilities but, like someone else said, they are the only two being mentioned. All of the plaintiffs have a child on the spectrum and their lawsuit threw those with mobility problems under the bus by saying that if you stopped giving them the GAC then all the issues would be solved.

What did the GAC provide if not faster access? It may have started out as something more but at the end it had changed. Those with the GAC were allowed front of the line passes and the ability to ride the same ride as many times as they wanted in a row.

And I'm not sure what the question / comment is regarding only children being disabled.

 

[aaarcher86]

But technically, the DAS should not be decreasing the number of people allowed to use the FP line except in that it has prevented a number of people from even going to Disney at all. If 50 people with a DAS suddenly want to ride Radiator Springs and go get a return time, that return time will be basically the same for all of them and all 50 could conceivably return to the ride at the same time. Universal's rules state that if the wait is 30min or less, then the person gets immediate access to the Express (FP) line - NOT to the front of that line, mind you. I think that in light of the fact that MANY rides in DW are now seeing significantly longer waits since FP+ that such a rule change would not be amiss.

I wasn't referring to the DAS. I was specifically talking about the GAC affecting the number of FP being given which is something that apparently caught the eye of Disney higher ups. 'Why aren't we giving more FP daily?' And upon looking into it they came across their answer.

I don't think the DAS is doing that. The DAS is virtually holding their spot in line. Those 50 people getting return times are not fluctuating the wait time since it's essentially them standing in line vs walking right through the FP line where they take a spot that wasn't accounted for in either wait.

And while I think Universals policy is nice, they also have a fraction of the attendance Disney does and from posts I've read more rides in general. What works for some place servicing 10,000 people may not work for a place servicing 30,000.

 

[SMD]

The discussion, both here and at Disney, seems to be happening under the [false] assumptions that:

• All accommodations needed or wanted involve, or seek, faster access
• Autism/developmental disorders and mobility problems are the only disabilities
• All the GAC did was provide faster access
• Only children have disabilities
• Rigorous, training and support of CM's with the goal of consistent application isn't the #1 most important key to making any system work

Disney is also being short-sighted if they don't think they've made a TON of money on their reputation as a destination that's friendly to people with disabilities. I know I've chosen a Disney park as a destination over others in the past on the basis of that reputation alone, and I know I'm far from the only one.

The suit was brought by parents of kids with autism. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. And by grease I mean the topic of discussion in this thread.

Disney may have a reputation for being a certain way, but it's not sustainable. There are more people in the parks. Not enforcing FP return times wasn't sustainable. Waits in FP queues are longer not because of FP+, but because there are more people in the parks and more people using FP. GAC wasn't sustainable because people used it. You don't get squatter's rights at Disney, where you went first, you got faster access when it was easier to give, so now you still get it now, even though there are more people and everyone is waiting longer.

 

[MickeyWheels]

I want referring to the DAS. I was specifically talking about the GAC affecting the number of FP being given.

I don't think the DAS is doing that. And while I think Universals policy is nice, they also have a fraction of the attendance Disney does and from posts I've read more rides in general. What works for some place servicing 10,000 people may not work for a place servicing 30,000.

__________
We found last trip that the Safari FP/HC/BTG line was MUCH longer than the standard line BUT there was no wheelchair access to the standard Queue so there was no option. Those are the frustrating lines. We wait the regular line wait, then get in a FP line that is longer than the standard Queue only because we have no option to use the standard queue. Otherwise, when we have a CHOICE to use the DAS/FP line it is up to us to choose what is best for the kids. Should BTG's be in the FP line or should they limit the number of BTG's in one line at a time? Not my place to say.... but I can voice our experience and bring to light something to ponder

 

[aaarcher86]

__________ We found last trip that the Safari FP/HC/BTG line was MUCH longer than the standard line BUT there was no wheelchair access to the standard Queue so there was no option. Those are the frustrating lines. We wait the regular line wait, then get in a FP line that is longer than the standard Queue only because we have no option to use the standard queue. Otherwise, when we have a CHOICE to use the DAS/FP line it is up to us to choose what is best for the kids. Should BTG's be in the FP line or should they limit the number of BTG's in one line at a time? Not my place to say.... but I can voice our experience and bring to light something to ponder

I'm sorry I don't know what a BTG is off the top of my head. I can't stop thinking Brazilian Tour Group and I know that can't be right! Lol

 

[MickeyWheels]

The discussion, both here and at Disney, seems to be happening under the [false] assumptions that:
All accommodations needed or wanted involve, or seek, faster access
Autism/developmental disorders and mobility problems are the only disabilities
All the GAC did was provide faster access
Only children have disabilities
Rigorous, training and support of CM's with the goal of consistent application isn't the #1 most important key to making any system work


Disney is also being short-sighted if they don't think they've made a TON of money on their reputation as a destination that's friendly to people with disabilities. I know I've chosen a Disney park as a destination over others in the past on the basis of that reputation alone, and I know I'm far from the only one.
________________________

* The Lawsuit seems to desire that those with Autism get fast access to any and all rides. Why?
* The GAC did not always give faster access, we used it for "safe waiting" areas where we waited our time with no problem.
* No one thinks that Mobility and cognitive disabilities are the only disabilities. BUT the Lawsuit throws everyone under the bus except Autism. Somehow they view them as needing more accommodation and exceptions than everyone else.
* No one assumes only children have disabilities, BUT for MAW return kids they usually are children and that has been a big discussion
* Keeping the CM's trained is key to making the system work. Problem is much is up tp interpretation (IE we were denied use of the GAC for Characters at AK but not at Epcot)

Bottom line... the lawsuit promotes Autism, and sadly is promoting resentment against many with Autism because it is frivolous. Disney accommodates. Work with them and its a success

 

[mttmilner]

Bottom line... the lawsuit promotes Autism, and sadly is promoting resentment against many with Autism because it is frivolous. Disney accommodates. Work with them and its a success

I wish I could find a clapping emoticon.

 

[SMD]

Bottom line... the lawsuit promotes Autism, and sadly is promoting resentment against many with Autism because it is frivolous. Disney accommodates. Work with them and its a success

This.

The idea that the impetus is on Disney to ensure success is ridiculous. Anyone, DAS, GAC, MAW or not will have a better trip with a little planning and flexibility. If you need something, there are ways to advocate without throwing your hands up and insisting someone else make your trip magical.

I wish I could find a clapping emoticon.

Does this work?

 

[mttmilner]

This.

The idea that the impetus is on Disney to ensure success is ridiculous. Anyone, DAS, GAC, MAW or not will have a better trip with a little planning and flexibility. If you need something, there are ways to advocate without throwing your hands up and insisting someone else make your trip magical.





Does this work?

Works for me

 

[PlutoPony]

What's the next step in the process of this lawsuit?

Would love to know if the attorney is doing this pro bono or at a reduced rate. If not, this suit could ultimately cost the plaintiffs a chunk of $$. Is immediate access + looping worth that much to them?

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how suing Disney is viewed in FL legal circles? I would assume the attorney took this to build his practice in the ADA compliance arena OR because going up against Disney is looked upon favorably. It appears the primary counsel on this suit is a principal / founding partner at his firm so am a little surprised at how the suit is written with so much emotion and extraneous info included....

 

[nobodies36]

I wrote a huge post and then decided it was too long to post.

Anyway, I did want to point out that rather than accommodate my needs as an individual and as Disney claim they do (which another central Florida park does for my specific needs which is not the DAS like accommodations they also offer but also not immediate and unlimited fastpass access like the GAC used to have) in addition to my DAS I am expected to at least try to use the system as a whole. That means even though I cannot use fastpass plus and have never been able to use fastpass (I will not go into the reasoning necessarily but if anyone wants an explanation as to why then feel free to ask) I still have to make multiple fastpass plus reservations when I know I cannot keep them for the length of stay and members of my party (14 nights and 6 guests last trip). There are advance fastpasses for the Mine Train and Anna and Elsa that I'm sure most of your families would love to have in advance. Due to the nature of my disability, any ride I wish to do requires multiple booking of the same thing over and over at different times and on different day and was 5 Mine Train bookings just to ride once. Those other 4 time I didn't make it to the ride blocked every one else of booking in advance. I would rather not have to do this, but I was told I would be looked at as an individual and only after a lot of hassle was I finally given a DAS which is of little help for my needs but since it was DAS or nothing I picked the former.

Imagine a child with autism who has an Anna and Elsa Fastpass plus booked aged ago and has to leave due to meltdown. Neither that child or the person who could have taken that fastpass under the old system of GAC (assuming the family of the child with autism used only the GAC as they did not feel the need to book fastpass plus knowing how GAC worked) got to see Anna and Elsa.

I don't want the old GAC back, I would just like to be able to do the same rides as everyone else per day (3.9- I asked) which works with my situation/disability without having to take away from non disabled guests in the form of unused fastpass plus.

I see too much talk about DAS being better because the GAC was unfair to non disabled guests, but the truth is until Disney does more to individualize access without excess those without special needs are still losing out (and those with special needs are also losing out and even feeling the need to file that silly lawsuit) because the system isn't really working. Disney cannot go back to GAC, but by having only the DAS that cannot be a catch all for access to all disabilities, those without disabilities are still losing out when it forces the disabled into trying to use a system just to get access. Wouldn't you prefer if Disney just gave me 4 blank anytime any ride tokens per day on my magic band in exchange for fastpass plus rights? I would. I'm sure you would if you saw the number of advance fastpass plus reservations that could have been made by other families that went to waste at the behest of Disney and those dealing with people with disabilities.

So it is not okay for there to be too many GACs in the Radiator Springs queue adding to the standby wait, but is okay for people with DAS (not all) to have to make reservations they cannot always keep forcing non-disabled from the fastpass plus and into the standby queue adding to the standby wait? I child who has a meltdown and has to leave the fastpass plus line is still a wasted spot.

It seems that the GAC to DAS change is not the only problem, but the implementation of fastpass plus at the same time is forcing wastage of fastpass plus advance bookings because of the issues being faced with those for whom the DAS doesn't actually accommodate.

I am glad the GAC (and the abuse of it) is gone, and whilst I think the lawsuit doesn't have a leg to stand on, I hope that showing the fact that people feel so strongly about the situation Disney will consider implementing an accommodation other than DAS (or in addition to)that provides access to all who need it whilst not hurting the non-disabled or lead to abuse.

 

[aaarcher86]

I would like to know why You can't use FP at all, if you don't mind.

As far as a child having a meltdown in the FP line... It happens. I honestly think the CMs would work with the guests in this instance, but that's not really something that has to do with the DAS. I don't see how Disney could account for all the 'what ifs' or unpredictability that comes with meltdowns.

As far as the any time, anywhere tokens instead of FP+... I'm not sure they could. I'm not positive they could take away something they offer to the public. Maybe there's a way you could sign an acknowledgement, but of could see families like those in the lawsuit saying they are under duress and felt they had to agree or not be accommodated appropriately, etc.

I'm also not sure any of he families filing would,be okay with 4 any time passes and that's it. A lot of old GAC users seem to think non GAC holders do a huge amount of rides and attractions throughout the day. I just personally can't see many people being amenable to a system like that.

 

[asta]

I'm also not sure any of he families filing would,be okay with 4 any time passes and that's it. A lot of old GAC users seem to think non GAC holders do a huge amount of rides and attractions throughout the day. I just personally can't see many people being amenable to a system like that.

I agree. In several places in the lawsuit the families talked about the CMs at Guest Services handing them several passes in addition to the DAS when they complained about the DAS. Since they still filed the ławsuit, I assume 4 or any limited number of FP would not make them happy.

 

[nobodies36]

I would like to know why You can't use FP at all, if you don't mind.

As far as a child having a meltdown in the FP line... It happens. I honestly think the CMs would work with the guests in this instance, but that's not really something that has to do with the DAS. I don't see how Disney could account for all the 'what ifs' or unpredictability that comes with meltdowns.

As far as the any time, anywhere tokens instead of FP+... I'm not sure they could. I'm not positive they could take away something they offer to the public. Maybe there's a way you could sign an acknowledgement, but of could see families like those in the lawsuit saying they are under duress and felt they had to agree or not be accommodated appropriately, etc.

I'm also not sure any of he families filing would,be okay with 4 any time passes and that's it. A lot of old GAC users seem to think non GAC holders do a huge amount of rides and attractions throughout the day. I just personally can't see many people being amenable to a system like that.

I'm not trying to solve the problems the people filing the lawsuit are claiming to have as I do not see how the can be fully aware of how the DAS impacts them until they have tried it.

The meltdown is in reference to how things may have been under the GAC system and how it seems to be the implementation of both around the same time that are causing difficulties that affect disabled guest which are affecting non disabled guests. The point is it doesn't really solve the problem for those who say the GAC was excess and non disabled suffered during that time but they are still missing out on fastpass plus for their family because of an event that would have been the same outcome for the disabled guest under both systems but worse for the non-disabled guest under the DAS. Make sense? I wouldn't expect anyone to be amenable to a hypothetical idea especially as the lawsuit stinks of wanting excess. Genuine people would see the basics as suitable as long as it can work for them and the problem is that all people with autism, who the DAS may be proving difficult for various reasons, are being tarred with the same greedy brush when most would like to see nothing more than a few tweaks for their individual circumstance and needs which Disney say they are doing.

I was a GAC holder and I don't think that non-disabled guests do a lot of rides per day. I asked and the average is 3.9 which they count as 4 rides per day. Whilst I don't expect Disney to be able to implement a 4 blank fastpass per day scenario, it was just to point out that something needs to be done rather than tell disabled people just book fastpass plus and take it away from another family just so you can prove that you cannot use fastpass plus. That is not fair to non-disabled guests who would love those advance fastpass bookings but don't get them because I took them knowing I couldn't use them.

I have been disabled for almost 20 years and one symptom (which is made worse by other symptoms i have) is that I cannot regulate my circadian sleep wake cycle and that part of my brain no longer functions at all. Doctors have tried everything and I don't even fall into any of the recently categorizes circadian disturbances. The FDA approved the very first drug for general treatment this year. The only drug that can work short term (and by that I mean I can only take a massive dose for plane travel or surgery appointments etc. not daily life at Disney) is used to treat Narcolepsy and Cataplexy. I cannot up my dose more than a few times a year without risking what little relief I have gained in the last 18 months of this drug. At least my sleeping will not get stuck on nightshift for 3 months at a time and I see no daylight whatsoever.

The bottom line is even with the maximum and best medication I still cannot tell if I will sleep 2 hours or 36 hours when I go to sleep (nothing will wake me and if I cannot get to a bed when I need to I would lie down anywhere even if it put my life at risk). That means I do not know when I will be in the park and I do not know whether that will be morning, afternoon, evening or night and it is not unusual for me to be arriving at 8pm for example. Even then I cannot spend more than a few hours a time in the park without having to go to sleep (could be a 10 hour nap) or I would sleep on a bench or in first aid to maximize my time and rides. Even when I made reservations and could no longer do those rides due to the way I was feeling I had to go through a whole big drama just to change the fastpasses once in another park (which took up a lot of my awake time). Stress makes it worse and dealing with the promise of individualized help and not getting it I didn't get on a ride for 4 days trying to sort out who could do what as I was told I had to go to each park only to be told the same thing at each park anyway. Doctors have spend years working on helping me and if there was a way they would have done it so please don't try to 'solve' my issues. I am merely using my situation as an example to show non-disabled guests that the DAS is just as intrusive to other peoples vacation as claimed the GAC was (not you or anyone on this thread, just those that treat old GAC users as automatic abusers) because Disney has the last laugh not them.

Thats fine- I have been enough times and I am limited in the rides I can do anyway I can still enjoy park time without rides. I just see all these people saying how the GAC hurt their experience as a non-disabled guest and yet since moving to the DAS system I have personally taking away much more of non-disabled guests ride time.

By not individualizing assistance that can be workable for me it isn't just me that suffers (and it is more in principle rather than how much I want to ride things) but those who I take fastpasses from that I cannot use. I feel wrong taking that fastpass that someone else could use and I feel more negativity towards being told to book rides I cannot use than the fact that I may only get to do two rides a day under the new system.

 

[nobodies36]

I agree. In several places in the lawsuit the families talked about the CMs at Guest Services handing them several passes in addition to the DAS when they complained about the DAS. Since they still filed the ławsuit, I assume 4 or any limited number of FP would not make them happy.

That is the difference between needs and wants and why the lawsuit will never win.