Resale Restriction Workaround

[JenniferYoung44]

This makes me glad I started with buying 75 points direct. We paid about $3k more than resale, which for us was worth it as we pay for 4 APs each year. But this just made it even more worth it. Though the Riviera would have to really be awesome to give up the points cause I love BWV. Planning on adding 100 more resale (we wanted two different home resorts). Probably AKV, but Poly and BLT are still in the running.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Thank you for sharing these recommendations! We’re planning to purchase within the next year and are interested in OKW (extended) and AKV. 200 points or so total. I know both resorts tend to be easier to book, especially 1- and 2-bedrooms, which is what we plan to book mostly. We do want AKV for Christmas trips every 2-3 years (though we would stay OKW Christmas if need be). We don’t trave to WDW during fall frenzy. December, early January, spring break, May, and June are the months we would travel...planning a December UY. Since OKW (extended) and AKV expire the same year, which would you recommend for the direct 75 point contract?

A) AKV to limit number of points with high dues.
B) OKW because extended contracts will be harder to find on the resale market.
C) AKV (direct) and SSR (resale, instead of OKW) to save $ since OKW tends to have availability so less need to own there)? Or vice versus.
D) Look for both resale and jump on whichever one we find first that fits our UY and point needs, then buy the other direct.

Thanks!

Are you going to travel annually or for a long enough length of time that you'll be buying AP's? That's the main reason to even do direct. And the other reason discussed here - to book at Riviera - is only dependent on the other 14 resorts not being enough options or if you really want to stay fairly consistently at Riviera. It doesn't sound like that was really on your radar. So, unless you're looking to purchase Gold AP's, which are blacked out at Christmas and it's by far the one that economically can make direct possible make sense for benefits, it may not even make sense to buy any points direct and to just purchase all points resale.

Otherwise - to maximize you'd want to purchase whichever resort is less expensive direct and the other one resale. Per the new prices I've seen that would be OKW direct and AKV resale.

 

[CaliAdventurer]

I actually think that's coming, a side business of the brokers.

I think it was too cumbersome for the old system but it's gonna be worth the trouble for the changes, especially after the new resorts start to be up and running in 3-5 years.

I think you'll see the forums that allow rentals to allow owners to search for each other that way as well.

The problem of course, is control of the reservation. If people wanted reservations that they don't control, why even buy into DVC? Why not just rent?

Everything has a cost. It's going to come down to each new buyer's comfort level.

I’ve been dreaming of an exclusive owner exchange for transfers. That would be so cool!

 

[ScubaCat]

I’ve been dreaming of an exclusive owner exchange for transfers. That would be so cool!

I'm in! I propose we call it the "Bueno Visto Tradeno Compania". I'm sure nobody will mind.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Thank you for sharing these recommendations! We’re planning to purchase within the next year and are interested in OKW (extended) and AKV. 200 points or so total. I know both resorts tend to be easier to book, especially 1- and 2-bedrooms, which is what we plan to book mostly. We do want AKV for Christmas trips every 2-3 years (though we would stay OKW Christmas if need be). We don’t trave to WDW during fall frenzy. December, early January, spring break, May, and June are the months we would travel...planning a December UY. Since OKW (extended) and AKV expire the same year, which would you recommend for the direct 75 point contract?

A) AKV to limit number of points with high dues.
B) OKW because extended contracts will be harder to find on the resale market.
C) AKV (direct) and SSR (resale, instead of OKW) to save $ since OKW tends to have availability so less need to own there)? Or vice versus.
D) Look for both resale and jump on whichever one we find first that fits our UY and point needs, then buy the other direct.

Thanks!

Unless you go twice within 12 months there aren't much of an idea of going direct for the perks. Best and only perk worth anything is the AP.

Fall frenzy covers late September - mid January, so your travel dates in December and January will fall within that time frame. Not that its a problem, because its not only if you at some point decides to try at switch 7 months out for a December reservation then you risk not being able to. However a 1br is currently much easier than a studio or 2br.

 

[Dean]

Sort of a variation of the idea of buying multiple resorts to have the 11 month window. I'm not a big fan of often working with banked/borrowed points as it increases the risk. I wonder if this opens the door for extensions to the 2042 resorts and/or a VIP program.

 

[ziravan]

Sort of a variation of the idea of buying multiple resorts to have the 11 month window. I'm not a big fan of often working with banked/borrowed points as it increases the risk. I wonder if this opens the door for extensions to the 2042 resorts and/or a VIP program.

The Chinese proverb is that the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now. For current owners (today), all of this is somewhat academic regarding our use of the membership; we're grandfathered.

I'm STILL not convinced that buying a 75 point contract to mitigate the restrictions is worth it, but I already have all of those things built into at least one of my contracts. Put another way, the point of the restrictions is to get buyers to throw their hands up in despair and buy direct. To the extent that becomes the case for new buyers, there's another option, a cheaper option. I'm just trying to lay that out in the purchase forum so that potential new buyers after this week have something more to consider, IF it's important to them.

Surely, you could also make this work by buying both the resale and direct component at the same resort/use year. I think that the added element to the equation for the L14 is how it will affect their values going forward. Today, the values are almost all based on "location, location, location". Going forward, the end date is going to become a bigger factor because of this restructuring, so hedging end dates would seem to be a good idea.

(Unlike the previous changes, this change is going to make current owners really pause before selling. Once they sell, even if they buy back in a few years later, they cannot get back what they will lose. I think that also is going to have a decent affect on values going forward.)

So far as the risk to maintaining multiple 11 month windows, I might be blind to that risk as I routinely juggle three different resorts. To me, the biggest risk is that it increases the possibility of split stays, which doesn't bother me at all but my wife's mileage varies significantly on that one.

I don't think that DVC is interested in extending the 2042 resorts like they did OKW, but some extensions I believe will be necessary. It won't be healthy for the system to take several resorts out at one time, and it won't be practical to rebuild several resorts for selling new all at once. They are going to want to stagger that out over about 2-3 years per resort. I could see them offering 2-8 year extensions just to stagger out the rebuilding process. I'm also not sure that they'll keep VH and HHI in the system after 2042.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

I just can’t comprehend this proposed work around? Maybe I need a couple more cups of coffee.....

 

[zavandor]

Another possible workaround: buy a contract at the Legacy14 and then wait for the next recession and buy Riviera for $40pp for the (portion of) stays you want to be there.
If BWV was selling for $50 during last recession, I cannot see why Riviera should sell for more than $40 (accounting for inflation too).

The Legacy14 already include two resorts in the area of the new Dinsey's Rehab Facility, so not a big loss there. If they'll then build a new tower at the Contemporary, how it has been rumored for years, there is already BLT. If they build the Epcot entrace resort, BCV and BWV are equally convenient. Until 2042, I would do this.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

I do not see that type of recession in the near future. Will there be a pullback in pricing, maybe. Rock bottom liquidation pricing, no.

 

[bwvBound]

The Chinese proverb is that the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now. For current owners (today), all of this is somewhat academic regarding our use of the membership; we're grandfathered.

Funny you mention this as I've been noodling this proverb all week. I envision it being put out there on the sales table with a construed parallel should the candidate buyer be aware of recent, unpleasant, changes: "Those who purchased DVC early were wise; it was the best time to buy. But now is the next best time with the new resorts. Come 20 years from now, you want to look back at today and feel wise, right?"

FWIW, as I look back to 2004, I am glad that we purchased when we did.

 

[MamaBear12]

Are you going to travel annually or for a long enough length of time that you'll be buying AP's? That's the main reason to even do direct. And the other reason discussed here - to book at Riviera - is only dependent on the other 14 resorts not being enough options or if you really want to stay fairly consistently at Riviera. It doesn't sound like that was really on your radar. So, unless you're looking to purchase Gold AP's, which are blacked out at Christmas and it's by far the one that economically can make direct possible make sense for benefits, it may not even make sense to buy any points direct and to just purchase all points resale.

Otherwise - to maximize you'd want to purchase whichever resort is less expensive direct and the other one resale. Per the new prices I've seen that would be OKW direct and AKV resale.

Thanks for the input. That is a good point regarding the Gold APs and our travel dates. I would prefer to not be there on blackout dates (the crowd level those weeks are not to my liking), so we could work around the blackouts. Otherwise, blackout dates don't really affect our travel times and we do go Orlando 1-2x a year (though traditionally not WDW 2x/year, but that could change).

 

[ScubaCat]

I just can’t comprehend this proposed work around? Maybe I need a couple more cups of coffee.....

I don't really get it either. It seems like the "workaround" is to buy direct, which is the entire purpose of the restrictions. Buying direct is a win for DVD over the resale market. By the same logic, I can workaround missing a black friday sale by buying at full price later.

I guess what's meant is if you want to stay at Riviera but don't want to buy in there, buying direct today vs. later on will beat the higher prices. That part is fair enough, but that assumes booking what you want at Riviera won't be super tight at 7 months. It's possible, but I wouldn't bank on it, especially the way things are going lately.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Sort of a variation of the idea of buying multiple resorts to have the 11 month window. I'm not a big fan of often working with banked/borrowed points as it increases the risk. I wonder if this opens the door for extensions to the 2042 resorts and/or a VIP program.

I'd tend to think the opposite - that this is being done with the thought of rehabs and selling into whatever the newest DVC setup is. Bam! - here's that walk to Epcot resort DVCII!

I just can’t comprehend this proposed work around? Maybe I need a couple more cups of coffee.....

I also don't think workaround is descriptive of this - it's laying out for new buyers how to get direct benefits in the least expensive way so what has already been done since the change a year ago from 25 to 75 points. One still has to evaluate if it's worth the direct upcharge or if buying all resale makes more sense.

 

[Dean]

The Chinese proverb is that the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now. For current owners (today), all of this is somewhat academic regarding our use of the membership; we're grandfathered.

I'm STILL not convinced that buying a 75 point contract to mitigate the restrictions is worth it, but I already have all of those things built into at least one of my contracts. Put another way, the point of the restrictions is to get buyers to throw their hands up in despair and buy direct. To the extent that becomes the case for new buyers, there's another option, a cheaper option. I'm just trying to lay that out in the purchase forum so that potential new buyers after this week have something more to consider, IF it's important to them.

Surely, you could also make this work by buying both the resale and direct component at the same resort/use year. I think that the added element to the equation for the L14 is how it will affect their values going forward. Today, the values are almost all based on "location, location, location". Going forward, the end date is going to become a bigger factor because of this restructuring, so hedging end dates would seem to be a good idea.

(Unlike the previous changes, this change is going to make current owners really pause before selling. Once they sell, even if they buy back in a few years later, they cannot get back what they will lose. I think that also is going to have a decent affect on values going forward.)

So far as the risk to maintaining multiple 11 month windows, I might be blind to that risk as I routinely juggle three different resorts. To me, the biggest risk is that it increases the possibility of split stays, which doesn't bother me at all but my wife's mileage varies significantly on that one.

I don't think that DVC is interested in extending the 2042 resorts like they did OKW, but some extensions I believe will be necessary. It won't be healthy for the system to take several resorts out at one time, and it won't be practical to rebuild several resorts for selling new all at once. They are going to want to stagger that out over about 2-3 years per resort. I could see them offering 2-8 year extensions just to stagger out the rebuilding process. I'm also not sure that they'll keep VH and HHI in the system after 2042.

It's likely like any other time, there will be situations where it makes sense and times when it doesn't. Working with banked and borrowed points presents risks but those may be more or less for a given situation, esp if you have to cancel on shorter notice. It'll likely be like any other system, when they roll out a new program it lags for a while but often becomes the go to system. Whether it's Marriott, Wyndham or Bluegreen going from weeks to points, or just the various VIP programs that have come on the scene and then evolved, the answer won't be the same across the board but there will be general answers that fit most people. Disney is pretty good at separating people from their money and making people think they're getting more than they really are, I suspect this will be no exception.

I'd tend to think the opposite - that this is being done with the thought of rehabs and selling into whatever the newest DVC setup is. Bam! - here's that walk to Epcot resort DVCII!

That's not really different. My point was it gives them lots of options and gives them the opportunity to both avoid much of the backlash that OKW owners could give them if they gave a more favorable plan. There are lots of things they could do with extensions, sales, buy one, get another, a VIP program and to avoid some of the mistakes they made round one.

 

[bwvBound]

I wonder if this opens the door for extensions to the 2042 resorts and/or a VIP program.

I recall Wyndham creating that door in 2006 by inventing a new program layer of Developer-sales-perks ("TravelShare") on top of Worldmark. It was a major game-changer that included a new VIP program but only to direct purchases going forward or 'upgrades' requiring both "qualified" old points + a new developer purchase. I wouldn't be surprised if DVD did similarly.

Editing to expand the thought a bit ...

Imagine that next month (or as early as 1/19??) that DVD starts selling Riviera as "DVC + Extra Magic!" The DVC portion is similar to what we already know except for the new "home resort only" restriction. The "Extra Magic!" portion is a new layer of perks offered only to new Developer sales.

The Extra Magic! layer carries a small annual dues (to cover the administrative efforts) and does not transfer on resale. It offers:

a) Free exchanges to Concierge Collection, Disney Collection and World Collection (RCI). (Waives the $95 transaction fee. Oh, why keep that fee so low? For prior owners, the $95 fee becomes $119 overnight followed by rate changes every 8 months. But new owners, rest easy: this is included in your Extra Magic! package.)
b) Access to using your DVC points across the entire DVC portfolio. (Something all present owners have now ... but a feature being restricted in the near future.)
c) VIP tiers! The offers here included: special phone lines for Member Services; special check-in lines at each resort; special Member Cruises/Travel events based on levels; earlier booking windows to Member Cruises based on levels; special party events based on levels; a special Magic Band; etc.
d) Might all our present "Member Magic" become "Extra Magic!"? Hmmm ... not all at once, but likely over a short window of 2-5 years?

Current owners do NOT receive "Extra Magic!" for free. If they have "qualified" DVC points (either direct or grandfathered as direct before the 1/19 changes) then they may "upgrade" all their points to "Extra Magic!" by purchasing an additional 100 points at Riviera.

----

So ... let's see how close this comes ...

 

[ScubaCat]

I recall Wyndham creating that door in 2006 by inventing a new program layer of Developer-sales-perks ("TravelShare") on top of Worldmark. It was a major game-changer that included a new VIP program but only to direct purchases going forward or 'upgrades' requiring both "qualified" old points + a new developer purchase. I wouldn't be surprised if DVD did similarly.

Editing to expand the thought a bit ...

Imagine that next month (or as early as 1/19??) that DVD starts selling Riviera as "DVC + Extra Magic!" The DVC portion is similar to what we already know except for the new "home resort only" restriction. The "Extra Magic!" portion is a new layer of perks offered only to new Developer sales.

The Extra Magic! layer carries a small annual dues (to cover the administrative efforts) and does not transfer on resale. It offers:

a) Free exchanges to Concierge Collection, Disney Collection and RCI. (Waives the $95 transaction fee.)
b) Access to using your DVC points across the entire DVC portfolio. (Something all present owners have now ... but is a point being restricted in the near future.)
c) VIP tiers! The offers here included: special phone lines for Member Services; special check-in lines at each resort; special Member Cruises/Travel events based on levels; earlier booking windows to Member Cruises based on levels; special party events based on levels; a special Magic Band; etc.
d) ...

Current owners do NOT receive "Extra Magic!" for free. If they have "qualified" DVC points (either direct or grandfathered as direct before the 1/19 changes) then they may "upgrade" all their points to "Extra Magic!" by purchasing an additional 100 points at Riviera.

----

So ... let's see how close this comes ...

I posted about the upgrade option before, and it's an interesting concept. However, given how happy they are to exercise ROFR and resell, if they devalue resale enough it could simply allow them to buy back all the points cheaper and sell them again at full price. But as with anything else, we'll all find out together when Riviera goes on sale. Or, maybe a little while thereafter, since they may want to see how sales go with the new restriction in place before making any sort of decision about upgrades (sorry, "extra magic!" )

 

[Dean]

I recall Wyndham creating that door in 2006 by inventing a new program layer of Developer-sales-perks ("TravelShare") on top of Worldmark. It was a major game-changer that included a new VIP program but only to direct purchases going forward or 'upgrades' requiring both "qualified" old points + a new developer purchase. I wouldn't be surprised if DVD did similarly.

Editing to expand the thought a bit ...

Imagine that next month (or as early as 1/19??) that DVD starts selling Riviera as "DVC + Extra Magic!" The DVC portion is similar to what we already know except for the new "home resort only" restriction. The "Extra Magic!" portion is a new layer of perks offered only to new Developer sales.

The Extra Magic! layer carries a small annual dues (to cover the administrative efforts) and does not transfer on resale. It offers:

a) Free exchanges to Concierge Collection, Disney Collection and World Collection (RCI). (Waives the $95 transaction fee. Oh, why keep that fee so low? For prior owners, the $95 fee becomes $119 overnight followed by rate changes every 8 months. But new owners, rest easy: this is included in your Extra Magic! package.)
b) Access to using your DVC points across the entire DVC portfolio. (Something all present owners have now ... but a feature being restricted in the near future.)
c) VIP tiers! The offers here included: special phone lines for Member Services; special check-in lines at each resort; special Member Cruises/Travel events based on levels; earlier booking windows to Member Cruises based on levels; special party events based on levels; a special Magic Band; etc.
d) Might all our present "Member Magic" become "Extra Magic!"? Hmmm ... not all at once, but likely over a short window of 2-5 years?

Current owners do NOT receive "Extra Magic!" for free. If they have "qualified" DVC points (either direct or grandfathered as direct before the 1/19 changes) then they may "upgrade" all their points to "Extra Magic!" by purchasing an additional 100 points at Riviera.

----

So ... let's see how close this comes ...

I rememberer back when Fairfield went from weeks to points.

I posted about the upgrade option before, and it's an interesting concept. However, given how happy they are to exercise ROFR and resell, if they devalue resale enough it could simply allow them to buy back all the points cheaper and sell them again at full price. But as with anything else, we'll all find out together when Riviera goes on sale. Or, maybe a little while thereafter, since they may want to see how sales go with the new restriction in place before making any sort of decision about upgrades (sorry, "extra magic!" )

Timeshares sell usually for roughly 50% more than the cost to build them, the rest is marketing and profit. They'd have to get them at a signifiant discount to make any real money. Plus it's easier to sell a new property than an existing one.

 

[bwvBound]

I rememberer back when Fairfield went from weeks to points.

But Worldmark was already points. And already a good system. Wyndham invented this "special Developer perks" layer to "add value" to Developer sales over recycled WM contracts.

 

[Dean]

But Worldmark was already points. And already a good system. Wyndham invented this "special Developer perks" layer to "add value" to Developer sales over recycled WM contracts.

I can't speak to WM but Bluegreen had a VIP system prior to 2006 but this is around the time they got serious about restricting it to qualified owners.