Renting?

[Mle8308]

I will have to go read it. But the old school rules of 20 reservations that have been on there since the beginning seem like an easy baseline for them to go off of and since it’s in the POS and has been I don’t really think DVC is going to get themselves into a legal battle they can’t easily win.

True! He likens it to many cease and desist orders lawyers send that don't really hold water under scrutiny, but tend to scare most people without a legal background.

 

[cruisehopeful]

I'll believe it when I see it. I think they've just been trying to fake like they are doing something up to this point. I'm hopeful that the dumb question asking about personal use was just a baby step towards the ultimate chopping block. I also don't want to see people who rarely rent out their points get screwed up in any way. I'll be following this.

 

[intamin]

https://dvcfan.com/news/dvc-commerc...dPaUFetNzJybCC87_w_aem_ZSjiyuehNRGLd-a5IbFe5Q

I don't see anything that different from before?

Edit: apparently they've added the punishments for commercial renting

 

[Genie+]

It is possible DVC’s strategy is to slowly and methodically continue to increase awareness that renting is not a free-for-all and has limitations. From the start every contract repeats over and over this is for Personal Use.

Interesting, included within the examples of factors used to conclude whether it is commercial activity:

“An Owner, Associate, or Owner Agent conducts photography, videotaping, or recording on Resort property that is used to market the availability of Vacation Ownership Interests and/or Vacation Homes for rental activity.”

 

[Genie+]

https://dvcfan.com/news/dvc-commerc...dPaUFetNzJybCC87_w_aem_ZSjiyuehNRGLd-a5IbFe5Q

I don't see anything that different from before?

This is more detailed than anything I’ve previously come across:
https://cdn1.parksmedia.wdprapps.di...-Floridian-Resort-Commercial-Use-Policy.pdf?0

3. Policy Regarding Use of Vacation Homes for Commercial Purposes: "Commercial purposes" includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner (other than DVD and its affiliates) that the Board and/or Disney Vacation Club Management, LLC (the "Management Company"), in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

Without limiting the discretion of the Board and Management Company, the Board and/or Management Company may reasonably conclude that an Owner is using or occupying Vacation Ownership Interests and/or Vacation Homes for commercial purposes based on any one or more of the following activities (which are a non-exhaustive list of examples and without limiting any other possible factors):

• A majority of reservations made by an Owner or individuals identified in the Management Company's system of record as an "associate" or an "affiliate" ("Associate"), or a majority of the aggregate Vacation Points or Ownership Points (as applicable; "Points") owned or controlled by an Owner (which may take into account all Points owned or controlled by an Owner across all Resorts at any given time), in either case, are used by individuals or entities other than the named Owner or Associate, regardless of whether the Owner or Associate is listed as a named guest on the reservation. As used herein "controlled by an Owner" shall include all Points that an Owner possesses discretion and authority to utilize, which authority may be proxy, power of attorney, or other permission from another Owner; or
• A majority of reservations or Points owned or controlled by an Owner (which may take into account all Points owned or controlled by an Owner across all Resorts at any given time) are made or used respectively at Resorts with overlapping room types and/or dates, regardless of whether the Owner or Associate is named as a guest on said reservations; or
• Regular advertising by an Owner, Associate, or someone else at the direction of an Owner (such as an employee, principal, officer, director, contractor, or agent acting on behalf of an Owner; collectively
  "Owner Agent") of the availability of Vacation Ownership Interests and/or Vacation Homes for rental, including but not limited to use of a dedicated website, social media account, page, post, third-party service provider, or on any other media or platform now known or hereafter devised; or
• In any 12-month period more than 20 reservations are made by an Owner and/or its Associate (which may take into account all Points owned or controlled by an Owner across all Resorts at any given time) and a majority of such reservations are not used by the named Owner or Associate; or
• An Owner, Associate, or Owner Agent conducts photography, videotaping, or recording on Resort property that is used to market the availability of Vacation Ownership Interests and/or Vacation Homes for rental activity.

4. Enforcement: Enforcement of this policy will be the responsibility of the Management Company.

If the Board or Management Company determines that an Owner is engaged in commercial use of their Points in violation of the Governing Documents, the Owner must cease such activity at the demand of the Board or Management Company, and if the Owner does not cease such activity to the satisfaction of the Board or Management Company, the Management Company may elect to take any one or more of the following actions, without limitation, for a period of up to 24 months (as determined in the judgment of the Management Company taking into account the degree or number of violations). The Management Company in its discretion may elect to prioritize investigations and enforcement to Owners having an exceptional number of points or that make an exceptional number of reservations associated with a Club membership (in each case as compared to the ownership interest and/or reservation activity of the average Owner):

• Cancel future reservations; or
• Restrict Owners) and Associate(s) access to online booking; or
• Restrict Owners) reservations to be made only in the name of the Owners) and Associate(s); or
• Restrict reservations to be made only at the Owners) home Resort; or
• Restrict Owners) and Associate(s) ability to modify reservations including any name or date-based modifications; or
• Restrict banking, borrowing, and transferring of Points; or
• Limit or remove Owners) access to incidental benefits (including, by way of example only and without limitation, suspension of exchange privileges with Disney affiliates and third-party exchange companies); or
• Restrict adding Associate(s) names; or
• Remove existing Associates) names; or
• Restrict check-in activities such as use of online check-in, direct-to-room, or other mobile check-in activities now known or hereafter devised

 

[Girlstar30]

Yes that 20 reservation thing.

I wonder though… in Girlstar30’s case the vast majority of those bookings would be their own reservation or part of their travel party on matching travel dates as the member.

That seems much easier to prove than someone who tries to claim all the reservations that don’t include themself or travel dates are all just reservations they gave away to friends and family.

That’s what all these Facebook renters try to say. How does DVC know that these lead guests aren’t my friends/family?

I spent 1600 points with me as the lead guest as soon as them contracts closed last year, im not worried If anything im probably the only person that DVC has told asked me to please STOP using points on myself until we close the damn direct

 

[cruisehopeful]

Interesting, included within the examples of factors used to conclude whether it is commercial activity:

“An Owner, Associate, or Owner Agent conducts photography, videotaping, or recording on Resort property that is used to market the availability of Vacation Ownership Interests and/or Vacation Homes for rental activity.”

This part makes me nervous for the places like our board sponsor and David's rental. Essentially, anytime they make a video of a resort, they are doing what this says.

 

[Girlstar30]

https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/condo-association-news

Official policy updates are at this link by resort. To me, the most interesting thing is that the more than 20 reservations per 12 month period where the majority of reservations are not by the owner is listed as a possible violation. IMO, that probably continues to provide a pretty good safe harbor for the vast majority of owners who do own primarily for personal use, but want to rent their points sometimes.

So it is more than 20 that you are not part of at all? Because if thats the case im nowhere near that

 

[muppets3d]

Stamp it out, DVC.

 

[airjay75]

I spent 1600 points with me as the lead guest as soon as them contracts closed last year, im not worried If anything im probably the only person that DVC has told asked me to please STOP using points on myself until we close the damn direct

I think the new 20 reservation language makes clearer that it’s both more than 20 reservations and a majority of those used by someone other than the owner.

In any 12-month period more than 20 reservations are made by an Owner and/or its Associate (which may take into account all Points owned or controlled by an Owner across all Resorts at any given time) and a majority of such reservations are not used by the named Owner or Associate;

 

[Girlstar30]

I think Tom Bricker (link to his article is above and here: Tom Bricker Article DVC Rental Crackdown) is right. Probably a lot of posturing on the part of DVC management to make it look like they are listening to complaints and doing something. He even makes a point that it may not be legal, but just a scare tactic. Also, to make potential renters a little more leery about renting and maybe just book through Disney instead (and Disney makes the money). Guess time will tell!

Yep if they wanted to send a real message we would be reading about the actions being enforced

 

[juliebee]

So it is more than 20 that you are not part of at all? Because if thats the case im nowhere near that

Between split stays and such, are you sure you haven't had 20 reservations in a year? I have about 1/3 your amount of points and I have a completely full dashboard.

 

[juliebee]

This is getting confusing bouncing from here and the other thread on this- https://www.disboards.com/threads/new-commercial-use-policy-published-03-31.3980639/#post-66621205

 

[Girlstar30]

Between split stays and such, are you sure you haven't had 20 reservations in a year? I have about 1/3 your amount of points and I have a completely full dashboard.

Oh im sure ive gone over 20 but the majority have me as the lead guest so I think what im reading is 20 reservations and the majority of those not in your name which is def not my case.

Trust me I am not worth going after ive never rented a bcv or bwv or things that people really get frustrated about not being able to book Dont think theyre gunna care about my ssr booking at 11 months

 

[cruisehopeful]

This is getting confusing bouncing from here and the other thread on this- https://www.disboards.com/threads/new-commercial-use-policy-published-03-31.3980639/#post-66621205

Sandi said the other thread will be the thread on the specific topic.

 

[VGCgroupie]

So it is more than 20 that you are not part of at all? Because if thats the case im nowhere near that

The verbiage isn’t 100% agreed upon but some think it means if you go over 20 reservations then not even 1 can be a rental otherwise it’s commercial. Again the language is vague and that plays into DVC’s favor. But if you feel you are just fine to rent then that’s your choice. I won’t be risking my membership over it.

 

[Girlstar30]

The verbiage isn’t 100% agreed upon but some think it means if you go over 20 reservations then not even 1 can be a rental otherwise it’s commercial. Again the language is vague and that plays into DVC’s favor. But if you feel you are just fine to rent then that’s your choice. I won’t be risking my membership over it.

It can also play into the renters favor. I could easily argue that I had no idea what they meant by being a commercial renter really. I think i know but others think different than me. I think people's opinions is going to be based on what they want the policy to be.

 

[airjay75]

This is getting confusing bouncing from here and the other thread on this- https://www.disboards.com/threads/new-commercial-use-policy-published-03-31.3980639/#post-66621205

That’s going to be the official thread. Suggest we take all conversation over there.

 

[Girlstar30]

I am out as I think its pointless as I thought before, but have at it guys

 

[VGCgroupie]

It can also play into the renters favor. I could easily argue that I had no idea what they meant by being a commercial renter really. I think i know but others think different than me. I think people's opinions is going to be based on what they want the policy to be.

Correct and you want it to be in your favor since you have more than 20 reservations and are also renting. I would feel differently about it if there wasnt a clear cut 20 reservations statement made. I really just dont think the minimal money made renting is worth any potential hassle it could pose in the future. Like I said could you fight any potential action taken against you? Yes you certainly can but at the end of the day that takes time, it takes stress and it takes away any joy from DVC. Your direct purchase ordeal will be cake walk compared to DVC coming after you for renting.