Rental Rates/Concerns

[freediverdude]

Did you really get caught smuggling jello shot syringes out of Pleasure Island?? And, if so, do they taste good?? I turned one down last time, they looked like a waste of money.

 

[Crissup]

Originally posted by freediverdude
Did you really get caught smuggling jello shot syringes out of Pleasure Island?? And, if so, do they taste good?? I turned one down last time, they looked like a waste of money.

I can attest to it! LOL!! It was Carol, my best friend and his DW and myself. I bought a round of jello shots (watermelon) for all of us. I had given Carol my empty and she had decided to save half of her's for later. So, she's trying to sneak it through the turnstyles and the CM spots the jello shots in her hand and asks her if they full. So, Carol says they're empty and shows him my empty syringe. When he asked to see the other, she tried pulling the switcheroo and showing him the same empty, but he was too smart for that. LOL!! So, finally she has to show him the other and he tells her she has to finish it. She flatly informs him that she does not want to finish it right now and he tells her to throw it away then. "NO WAY!! I AM NOT THROWING IT AWAY!!" she was heard to exclaim. So, there she is moving quickly away from the CM as she's trying to squeeze the last of the jello shot into her mouth. LOL! Needless to say, I was standing outside the turnstyle the entire time laughing my butt off and telling the CM to arrest her. LOL!!

Here's the evidence... LOL!! (Hope my medical insurance is up to date... )

 

[freediverdude]

LOL, that's a good story. No wonder she doesn't look too happy there! That's true, I would have never thought about not being able to take them outside Pleasure Island, since they seem more like "toys" than drinks. At Mannequin's, they wouldn't let me take my beer bottle out of the club to walk around Pleasure Island either, they made me pour it into a plastic cup so I could spill it easier. Next time bring along a big enough purse to stuff them in there! Hmm, I wonder now that Pleasure Island is going to be ungated for a while, if they will let you leave with drinks or syringes? I bet not- I bet they won't even let you leave any of the clubs with a drink now, to walk around. That may end up being a minus, because people won't be able to come out and see the street stages if they have just ordered a drink. Oh well....oops, sorry, guess I'm getting off the topic of this thread here, I better close.

 

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by Dean
Verbal resport from Matt Gibbs when he was there was that DVC purposefully does not rent out high demand times. If they did, they would have a better exchange rate but less availability for the members. As for exactly how they determin which time to give up, I don't know and doubt most of the people at MS do either.

I believe Matt Gibbs (whoever he may be, LOL) said that. I agree that it's doubtful wherther most at MS know.

That said, I just checked the official WDW website - Disney is willing to rent me accomodations at BWV, BCV, VWL or OKW for Christmas week - 12/25 through 1/1. The 7 month window isn't even open for that.

I also checked 12/2 - 12/9 and found accomodations at either BCV or OKW.

For 12/9-12/16, accomodations were available at OKW, BCV, VWL and BWV. Again, 7 month window isn't even entirely open for those dates.

IMHO, Christmas week and the first two weeks of December are high demand times. (2005 dates can't be reserved via the web yet so I couldn't check Easter vacation weeks. Who wants to bet that they will be available for cash before the 7 month window opens, too, LOL)?

It's hard to reconcile Mr. Gibbs' statements with Disney's actual practice. Maybe Mr. Gibbs meant that Disney doesn't rent out ALL high demand times.


Best wishes -

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by CarolMN
I believe Matt Gibbs (whoever he may be, LOL) said that. I agree that it's doubtful wherther most at MS know.

That said, I just checked the official WDW website - Disney is willing to rent me accomodations at BWV, BCV, VWL or OKW for Christmas week - 12/25 through 1/1. The 7 month window isn't even open for that.

I also checked 12/2 - 12/9 and found accomodations at either BCV or OKW.

For 12/9-12/16, accomodations were available at OKW, BCV, VWL and BWV. Again, 7 month window isn't even entirely open for those dates.

IMHO, Christmas week and the first two weeks of December are high demand times. (2005 dates can't be reserved via the web yet so I couldn't check Easter vacation weeks. Who wants to bet that they will be available for cash before the 7 month window opens, too, LOL)?

It's hard to reconcile Mr. Gibbs' statements with Disney's actual practice. Maybe Mr. Gibbs meant that Disney doesn't rent out ALL high demand times.


Best wishes -

Matt Gibbs was one of the DVC VP, I forget his exact title. He left a few years ago. Remember there are two components of cash rentals, the exchanged points and the points owned by DVD. Mr Gibbs and I were talking specifically about DVC exchange points and not the points still owned by Disney, the answers could and likely would be totally different. And I'm sure there are no absolutes but if DVC is trying to spread them around and min the high demand times, that's all one can ask. Also, philosophy could have changed over the past couple of years.

I'm a little surprised no one compared DVC NOT renting out high demand times using exchanged points to individual renters who sometimes do, as being discussed previously in this thread and in similar discussions. Your pickup was one of my comebacks. The second is that DVD has an unfair advantage in booking anything they decide to. And lastly, they would be booking it first then renting it out later. Do I think this is a big problem, absoluately not, but it's certainly more negative than an indivual renting out their points at the same time.

 

[RobDoc]

Originally posted by CarolMN
...
That said, I just checked the official WDW website - Disney is willing to rent me accomodations at BWV, BCV, VWL or OKW for Christmas week - 12/25 through 1/1. The 7 month window isn't even open for that.

I also checked 12/2 - 12/9 and found accomodations at either BCV or OKW.

For 12/9-12/16, accomodations were available at OKW, BCV, VWL and BWV. Again, 7 month window isn't even entirely open for those dates.

Actually, the 7 month reservation priority now extends into mid-January, 2005. Tomorrow morning, you can call MS and make a reservation for any date thru January 13 at any DVC resort using points.

I don't know when DVC releases "reservation Points" into the system for CRO usage, but the Holiday period is certainly within 7 months at this time. I might feel differently if those rooms were available in fall, 2003 or even April, 2004- but at this time, I think it's certainly appropriate for DVC to offer rooms thru CRO to recoup value for the non-DVC options used by members.

 

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by Dean
Matt Gibbs was one of the DVC VP, I forget his exact title. He left a few years ago.

Good to know, thanks.

Remember there are two components of cash rentals, the exchanged points and the points owned by DVD. Mr Gibbs and I were talking specifically about DVC exchange points and not the points still owned by Disney, the answers could and likely would be totally different. And I'm sure there are no absolutes but if DVC is trying to spread them around and min the high demand times, that's all one can ask. Also, philosophy could have changed over the past couple of years.

It's JMHO (I have no data), but I think the availability for cash ahead of the 7 month window exceeds the percentage retained by Disney. I agree that if DVC is spreading the "exchange" points around and minimizing the high demand times, it's reasonable. I wish they would wait until after the 7 month window opens to offer popular times, though. After all, don't the DVC guides say most make their reservations 6 months or less in advance? Doesn't much matter to me, since we are able to make reservations 11 months in advance - just seems like a "fairness" issue. I also have no plans to use points for any of the options in the Collections, so I don't relate to those who complain about the cost in points to use them. Often wonder if those who post about owners renting use the "Collections". If so, it seems to me they are complaining about themselves!

I'm a little surprised no one compared DVC NOT renting out high demand times using exchanged points to individual renters who sometimes do, as being discussed previously in this thread and in similar discussions. Your pickup was one of my comebacks. The second is that DVD has an unfair advantage in booking anything they decide to. And lastly, they would be booking it first then renting it out later. Do I think this is a big problem, absoluately not, but it's certainly more negative than an indivual renting out their points at the same time.

ITA. I will never understand why "members renting high demand time" issue is such a big deal. DVC has to be doing way more than all the members combined and very few seem at all concerned about that. Perhaps it is just not as visible since Disney doesn't advertise on the DIS Rent/Trade Forum.

Based on all the passionate posts on the renting issue, I really thought the choices restricting renting would get a lot more votes on the "If you had the power" poll.

Best wishes -

 

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by WebmasterDoc
Actually, the 7 month reservation priority now extends into mid-January, 2005. Tomorrow morning, you can call MS and make a reservation for any date thru January 13 at any DVC resort using points.

I don't know when DVC releases "reservation Points" into the system for CRO usage, but the Holiday period is certainly within 7 months at this time. I might feel differently if those rooms were available in fall, 2003 or even April, 2004- but at this time, I think it's certainly appropriate for DVC to offer rooms thru CRO to recoup value for the non-DVC options used by members.

Of course, you are correct - maybe next time I should use my fingers to count, LOL.

Kind of makes my whole argument moot, doesn't it? I agree, offering those times after the 7 month window is very reasonable.

I'll have to check again when 2005 dates become available on the web. Don't care quite enough to call CRO.

Best wishes -

 

[idratherbeinwdw]

Originally posted by CarolMN


IMHO, Christmas week and the first two weeks of December are high demand times.

While I agree of course that Christmas week is high demand, I respectfully disagree that the first 2 weeks of December is high demand.

My personal experience has been (and if you look at WDWIG (http://www.allearsnet.com/) or any website or book with average attendance figures for WDW, it is well documented), the beginning of December is one of the quietest times of the year at WDW. Most books and websites recommend it as a great time to go due to low crowds and all the holiday hoopla that begins in December.

I would not consider it a high demand time, completely the opposite in fact.

 

[Johnnie Fedora]

Disney has the ability to hold back "member bookings" before the 7 or 11 month window. Just because rooms are available after the 7 month mark doesn't mean the weren't slated to be cash reservations at the 11 month mark or before.

Given occupancy data etc. I'm sure Disney decides how much of each season they will save the "CRO reservation points" bookings. It's all kept a secret and there is no written description about this process anywhere for members to access. Disney will likely do whatever they need to to make their target profit. If that means holding back 10-15% (or more) at peak times I'm sure they would do it.

 

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by idratherbeinwdw
While I agree of course that Christmas week is high demand, I respectfully disagree that the first 2 weeks of December is high demand.

My personal experience has been (and if you look at WDWIG (http://www.allearsnet.com/) or any website or book with average attendance figures for WDW, it is well documented), the beginning of December is one of the quietest times of the year at WDW. Most books and websites recommend it as a great time to go due to low crowds and all the holiday hoopla that begins in December.

I would not consider it a high demand time, completely the opposite in fact.

Early December isn't high demand for park attendance or for non-DVC resorts. But high demand times for the parks is not necessarily the same time as it is for reserving DVC accomodations.

Early December is most definitely a high demand time for DVC resorts. If you want to be assured of getting your first choice of resort and unit size without using a waitlist, you must call at the 11 month mark. If you're around the Forum at all in January 2005, you'll see what I mean. In the meantime, take a look at this thread and read tiggerguy2000's posts:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=585880

Best wishes -

 

[idratherbeinwdw]

Originally posted by CarolMN
Early December isn't high demand for park attendance or for non-DVC resorts. But high demand times for the parks is not necessarily the same time as it is for reserving DVC accomodations.

Early December is most definitely a high demand time for DVC resorts. If you want to be assured of getting your first choice of resort and unit size without using a waitlist, you must call at the 11 month mark. If you're around the Forum at all in January 2005, you'll see what I mean. In the meantime, take a look at this thread and read tiggerguy2000's posts:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=585880

Best wishes -

I read the thread you linked me to. I see one guy had a problem, it did not seem to widespread.

So are you saying no matter what to be sure we get what we want reserve at the 11 month window? That I agree with, no matter what resort and no matter when you are going.

But if you are singling out Early December as harder than most other times to reserve at DVC I am still not convinced by this one poster's experience. Thanks for the response!

 

[Johnnie Fedora]

Originally posted by freediverdude
I turned one down last time, they looked like a waste of money.

Especially if you payed for your jelloshot with rented points money.

 

[Crissup]

I traditionally prefer to visit WDW the first week or two of December. I've found that by the 10 month mark, accomodations are getting very scarce at the BWV. When CarolAnnC and I began dating, she wanted to stay at BWV also, because that's where I was staying. After the second year, she finally gave up trying to use the 7 month window and purchased a BWV resale just so she could book BWV during that time frame.

This year, we were so busy with other things, that we ended up missing the early window all together. We ended up having to book Thanksgiving week instead. Thanksgiving week is always easier to book that the first two weeks of December.

 

[ripleysmom]

"If the second phone line were strictly for the computer and/or rental "business", that's 100%. Cell phone and the like would depend on useage patterns, etc."

If you check back I'm pretty sure that is what I said.

One thing though is that the computer and phone line have to be 100% used for those activities to be 100% deductible. None of this "well I bought it for rentals and since it's there I'll use it for other things" stuff. Same with the cell.


"If anyone defaulted or points were lost, that's a direct off the top deduction."

Wouldn't that actually be additional income? Most times renters pay in advance for their rental, so how could someone lose money?


"The point is that there are additional deductions and they have value and would reduce the actual true income and the taxes accordingly."

I believe that I acknowledged that point.


"And in the end, the actualy tax bill on this type of income would be quite small overall, likely significantly less than $1K per year."

That is where you and I disagree.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by idratherbeinwdw
While I agree of course that Christmas week is high demand, I respectfully disagree that the first 2 weeks of December is high demand.

My personal experience has been (and if you look at WDWIG (http://www.allearsnet.com/) or any website or book with average attendance figures for WDW, it is well documented), the beginning of December is one of the quietest times of the year at WDW. Most books and websites recommend it as a great time to go due to low crowds and all the holiday hoopla that begins in December.

I would not consider it a high demand time, completely the opposite in fact.

This is an area where DVC occupancy and WDW attendence do not track. Early December is a pretty busy time for DVC though slow overall for WDW.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Johnnie Fedora
Given occupancy data etc. I'm sure Disney decides how much of each season they will save the "CRO reservation points" bookings. It's all kept a secret and there is no written description about this process anywhere for members to access. Disney will likely do whatever they need to to make their target profit. If that means holding back 10-15% (or more) at peak times I'm sure they would do it.

Hopefully they don't do it this way, ie holding high demand times to rent for the points DVD still owns, just to incsrease their profits. It'd actually be a violation of the POS and state law but proving it would be a tough one unless they got the state to investigaate. Though a well worded complaint would likely trigger the appropriate investigation. Actually one of my patient's mom's works in that office though I haven't, and wouldn't, want to impose on our relationship directly. I'm sure it would lend creditbility to any complaint I might feel the need to make. While I have some concerns about the way DVC does things, it's not in this area. Since the members would have to pay any legal fees, etc, I would only go this route when I felt there was no other choice.

 

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by Dean
Hopefully they don't do it this way, ie holding high demand times to rent for the points DVD still owns, just to incsrease their profits. It'd actually be a violation of the POS and state law but proving it would be a tough one unless they got the state to investigaate. Though a well worded complaint would likely trigger the appropriate investigation. ...(snip)....... While I have some concerns about the way DVC does things, it's not in this area. Since the members would have to pay any legal fees, etc, I would only go this route when I felt there was no other choice.

Legal fees? ! Members have to pay? Double !

Forget I ever posted on the subject.

Consider me firmly back in the camp that believes members renting high demand time is a horrible problem!

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by ripleysmom
"If the second phone line were strictly for the computer and/or rental "business", that's 100%. Cell phone and the like would depend on useage patterns, etc."

If you check back I'm pretty sure that is what I said.

One thing though is that the computer and phone line have to be 100% used for those activities to be 100% deductible. None of this "well I bought it for rentals and since it's there I'll use it for other things" stuff. Same with the cell.


"If anyone defaulted or points were lost, that's a direct off the top deduction."

Wouldn't that actually be additional income? Most times renters pay in advance for their rental, so how could someone lose money?


"The point is that there are additional deductions and they have value and would reduce the actual true income and the taxes accordingly."

I believe that I acknowledged that point.


"And in the end, the actualy tax bill on this type of income would be quite small overall, likely significantly less than $1K per year."

That is where you and I disagree.

Lets explore based on the example presented of $30K over 2 years. Lets assume an average rental price of $10 pp and an income bracket of 25%. That's 3000 points and $15K per year on average. direct dues of around $6000. If you figure return of principle over the life of the contract, that's another $3000 per year. If you depreciated as real estate, it would actually be more until you'd depreciated the entire amount and then it'd be less. That gives you a gross income of approximately $6000 per year. A second phone line is around $600 per year and my cell phone for one person is total about $1200, I'll assume 20% ($240). Say another $200 in mail and long distance charges. Do an SEPP of around $1000, or whatever the maximum is when you get finished. Ignoring the home office directions, that gives you a maximum taxable income of around $4000 realizing there are potentially more deductions like the home office and any defaults or wasted points. Tax of $1000 exactly plus deferred tax on $1000. If the total income was under around $60K, the actual tax would be more in the $600 range, or possibly even less. If there are listings fees or commsions. computer, dsl, ebay, etc; that too would be deductible. Even mileage to the PO, trips to Orlando to the annual meetings including mileage could potentially be deductible if done correctly.

As for defaults, it would depend on the terms and situation. Any lost points could be totally discounted off the top as well as any unpaid rentals where the points were not used. Obviously if the person rented out the points twice with a "cancellation or default", there would be additional potential income dependingon specifics.

As someone else posted, and I've said before, the dollars are not there to justify doing DVC as a business. And as someone also posted, it's hypocritical to be upset when a member does it and not be upset when DVC/DVD is doing the same thing on a much larger scale.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by CarolMN
Legal fees? ! Members have to pay? Double !

Forget I ever posted on the subject.

Consider me firmly back in the camp that believes members renting high demand time is a horrible problem!

Carol, the problem is there's no way to sort out one rental from another. Unless DVC comes up with a "Commercial Rental" definition and it sticks, a big IF IMO, all rentals will be the same from a personal standpoint. I agree that the only current definition DVC has about commercial, is the number of points one can own. And that's an indirect definition at best. So I believe the only two stances one can currently reasonably take are that renting out the number of points one can own is legal or that ANY renting is not legal including DVC. That shuts down ALL the exchange options except II. While “intent” may affect how any individual member feels about a rental, it will not come into play with a legal definition. All DVC could even try to do to prevent rentals would be things like the following:

• Limit the number of points that can be rented to say 200 per year or maybe 500 or 3 years or similar.
• Limit to maybe 2 rentals per year or 5 over 3 years or similar
• Stop ALL renting, and thus the exchange options that depend on them.
• Change the home resort window.
• Institute a min stay, possibly to include a weekend night.
• Report rentals to the IRS.
• Start their own members rental program and take a cut of say 25-35%, like many other timeshares and condo’s do. This is likely the only way DVC could report rentals to the IRS anyway.
• Not worry about it, like now.
• Reinitiate special season preference lists and/or lottery’s for high demand times.

While Disney is certainly a big company and it's hard to fight big companies, let explore what might happen if DVC came up with a "commercial use" definition that left some people out in the cold. Assuming it went to court, a lawyer should argue the following.

• DVC set the commercial use rules with the limit of the number of points one could own.
• The POS specifically allows renting.
• DVC reinforced the rules and the above limit by allowing a pattern of use for 12 years or more thus establishing a set of rules consistent with practices over time. This is well known in business, especially as it applies to employee benefits and not that much different than a common law marriage.
• DVC is doing exactly what they are trying to prevent, an obvious double standard.
• Disney/DVC is the big bad people trying to take advantage of the little guy. Courts routinely side with the individual in a pick em.
• The POS did not define “commercial use” beyond the above info but did define personal use to include guests and leasee’s. The original wording is extremely vague and misleading.
• The court system, including in FL, has previously upheld that any rental rules had to apply to all parties evenly, where condo’s are concerned.

IMO, a slam dunk for the member with DVC paying all legal fees for the member plus a portion of any civil judgement with the amount of judgement being related to the specifics of the case and the amount asked for. Plus possibly fines for DVC through the state’s AG. And I think the chances of this even going to court would be less than 5%, IMO of course. Disney would likely be falling all over themselves to settle once they were convinced it could go to court.