Reneging Renters - Survey

[JimMIA]

IMHO, a renter deciding not to book an available ressie they inquired about is one of those frogs you have to kiss to find a prince/princess. I'm sure it's nobody's idea of a good time, but it goes with the territory.

The middle two types of cancellations of existing ressies -- IMHO -- are not usually the result of inappropriate or unethical behavior on anybody's part. Stuff happens and people change their minds, and often they have no choice in the matter. As mentioned above, I think owners could do a lot better job of protecting both parties if they had clear policies. I think often owners don't want to scare off a potential renter, and they unwittingly lead them down a path that could become difficult later.

The final two -- Holding points and complete loss of points -- are pure negligence by the owner...no matter what the renter did. At best, they are a painful educational experience. At worst? Well, as the saying goes, "You can't fix stupid!"

 

[JimMIA]

Reservation booked but cancelled resulting in Holding of points? - Rental should be paid in full 45 days out. If canceled after that renter does not get any refund at all. That way, no actual "loss" occurs to the owner.

Cancellation of points resulting in loss of points? - Same as above -Rental should be paid in full 45 days out. If canceled after that renter does not get any refund at all. That way, no actual "loss" occurs to the owner.

Chuck is absolutely right, and I'm frankly amazed that this even comes up. This should be a given.

When I go on ski trips, we often have to have 100% of EVERYthing paid 120-180 days out -- with absolutely everything 100% NON-REFUNDABLE. That's for rack-rate trips to nice resorts. I can't imagine anyone offering a deep-discount vacation to argueably the world's premier vacation destination with anything less than full payment a reasonable amount of time out from arrival.

 

[TCPluto]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anewman
What exactly is the definition of "reneged"?

If one inquires about a date but chooses not to book?
If dates are available but renter passes on them?
Reservation booked but renter passes well b4 any cancellation deadlines?
Money changes hands but refund is requested well b4 any holding or banking deadlines?
Reservation booked but cancelled resulting in Holding of points?
Cancellation of points resulting in loss of points?

IMO all of the above are the price of doing BUSINESS.

I defined this in my first post.

Question: Do you feel that it is appropriate and ethical for someone to do any of the above?

If it happened to you, would you feel good about it?

Not so much, you never defined what "reneged" is in your first post. And for that reason, a cancelled reservation I offered was not the result of a "reneged" agreement, not by my definition anyway. A family member with a legitimate situation didn't go back on their agreement, so no, no lie no misrepresentation by my definition. Sorry.

 

[JimMIA]

He did define his term. It's not in his first post, it's in post #6 on this thread:

"I define reneging renter as someone who agrees with you on price, then you make a reservation, then they back out for any reason.

Someone who calls or emails but doesn't commit to buying is simply a shopper/bargain hunter. Although I don't like it, I have no intrinsic problem with that since that is the current system we have."

I don't agree with much OP has posted so far, but this sounds like a rational definition of the term for the purposes of this discussion. At least, to me it does...YMMV.

 

[TCPluto]

It's not in his first post, it's in post #6 on this thread:

"I define reneging renter as someone who agrees with you on price, then you make a reservation, then they back out for any reason.

Someone who calls or emails but doesn't commit to buying is simply a shopper/bargain hunter. Although I don't like it, I have no intrinsic problem with that since that is the current system we have."

Thanks Jim. He said the first post, so that's where I went to look and it wasn't there. I thought he would have known which post he put it in.

My bad for taking him at his word....

 

[Cruelladeville]

So, renting to a relative or friend, with no money involved, does NOT qualify as reneging, according to this definition, regardless of their cancellation behavior??? I think it's the behavior that should define "reneg", not the price one paid for the points. If a relative uses your points, and then backs out, they "reneged", unless the owner of the points knew it was for reasons beyond anyone's control.

 

[TCPluto]

So, renting to a relative or friend, with no money involved, does NOT qualify as reneging, according to this definition, regardless of their cancellation behavior??? I think it's the behavior that should define "reneg", not the price one paid for the points. If a relative uses your points, and then backs out, they "reneged", unless the owner of the points knew it was for reasons beyond anyone's control.

Sounds reasonable, I agree.

 

[icydog]

I do a lot of renting and I have had only one person ask for his money back. In fact it happened two weeks ago and I was very surprised because this family booked their vacation, July 4th week at the Beach Club, 11 months ago. But he explained he worked for GM and had been laid off so what was I suppose to do? Was I to say to the poor guy--Tough! So sad for you! I had enough time to return the points to my account, (I forgot to do it, I have to do it tomorrow!) since I have a Sept use year. If I need to, I can still bank the points. Returning $800 to someone was not fun but it was a cost of doing business. I did however ask him to just return my pay pal fees.

BTW, I never make a reservation without payment in full. I have enough references by now that I think I am safe asking this. I have had a lady ask me check availabilty for three different resorts for three different time frames only to be told she was going with someone else. This was during the Christmas rush at member services so each call took 10 minutes. I would never have done all this running around had I had the slightest inkling she was fishing. I sincerely thought she was a serious buyer, but in fact she had me do the leg work then supplied my information to someone else who made her a reservation for less. I blocked her email address and I was furious but again it happens in business. I moved on.

For the most part my renters are serious and know just what they want. I do not check for availabilty UNTIL there is agreement on all aspects of the reservation including price, resort, villa size and date. I spell it all out and then tell the folks if they want to proceed to let me know. So far I have done okay.

Marylyn

 

[gblast123]

So, renting to a relative or friend, with no money involved, does NOT qualify as reneging, according to this definition, regardless of their cancellation behavior??? I think it's the behavior that should define "reneg", not the price one paid for the points. If a relative uses your points, and then backs out, they "reneged", unless the owner of the points knew it was for reasons beyond anyone's control.

You are correct. The whole reason behind this thread is to find out how many people made a ressie, was put through the trouble of using their points, and then had to reclaim their points.

It seems to be a prevalent problem.

 

[Anewman]

I defined this in my first post.

Question: Do you feel that it is appropriate and ethical for someone to do any of the above?

If it happened to you, would you feel good about it?

Would I feel good about it no, but it would be covered in the agreement.

Unethical??? No
Things happen and if the contract allows them to back out it is not just ethical but a right given to them by that contract(or verbal agreement etc...).

If the contract states the RENTER could back out within a given time period and that renter does choose to back out within that period of time, well that was the contract.
If the contract states no refunds after a given date and the renter requests a refund after that given date, well that was the contract.

Its only Business IMO.

Now that I understand your Definition of the word, I will move on. But in my opinion no DEAL is set until Contract is signed, and you have the money in hand, and the renter has the confirmation in hand.


NOTE.
When I mentioned "loss of points", I meant those points go unused but did not intend to imply that it resulted in finacial loss to the owner.

 

[gblast123]

Would I feel good about it no, but it would be covered in the agreement.

Unethical??? No
Things happen and if the contract allows them to back out it is not just ethical but a right given to them by that contract(or verbal agreement etc...).

If the contract states the RENTER could back out within a given time period and that renter does choose to back out within that period of time, well that was the contract.
If the contract states no refunds after a given date and the renter requests a refund after that given date, well that was the contract.

Its only Business IMO.

Now that I understand your Definition of the word, I will move on. But in my opinion no DEAL is set until Contract is signed, and you have the money in hand, and the renter has the confirmation in hand.


NOTE.
When I mentioned "loss of points", I meant those points go unused but did not intend to imply that it resulted in finacial loss to the owner.

Well, a verbal contract is still a contract!! If I agree to give you something in exchange for something that you give me, it is a legally binding agreement. (Proving it is another matter which can get very technical)

In terms of the definition of reneging renter, a renter has already agreed, whether in writing or verbally, to pay for the reservation that you have already made.

Is it in the nature of any business that you are aware of where people break their agreements? Do you condone that type of behavior, in business or otherwise?

The point of this thread is to find out how prevalent it is and what is the "cost" to people like me who have to go out and find an new renter, etc.

I define ethical to be a standard that is, at the minimum, slightly above the minimal legal obligation. I feel that it is ethical to give a reneging renter a full refund if they have a good explanation and have been treating you with dignity and respect. For example, a renter loses their job and needs the money back within 30 days of their reservation. Assuming that my contract with him gave me the right to keep the money, (ie - even though I might have the "legal" right to keep their money), I feel that it would be unethical for me to do so if I could rent the points out to someone else and get the money from the other person.

Even thougth it is in a holding account, I still have a 60 day window and if I get my money back, there is no real loss to me.

Some may feel differently but I am in that precise situation right now and I am helping someone by trying to rent out their (mine originally) reservation.

I don't like it, obviously, but I think that it is the right thing to do.

In terms of a business, renting points out is pretty meager. Most would not do so if they could do anything else with their money.(I have said it before, - DISNEY MAKES ALL THE MONEY!!!)

There are some small scraps left.(there is an active thread on the merits of buying vs renting points where they have a technical discussion of opportunty cost, lost interest, etc.).

 

[Chuck S]

There are some small scraps left, which I had figured to be about 5-7%, after figuring in numerous factors (there is an active thread on the merits of buying vs renting points where they have a technical discussion of opportunty cost, lost interest, etc.).

If you are getting technical about breaking agreements...you should not be making a consistent return on DVC as an investment by renting. Disney makes it clear in documents that while we are allowed to rent, we should not consider it comercially viable, nor as a way to get a "return on investment."

 

[gblast123]

In all cases, unless it were an actual emergency, those that cancel are not invited again, ever. And they are aware of that stipulation from the beginning.

I feel your pain!! Anyone who has it happens, whether from family, friends, renters, etc. knows that it leaves you with a feeling of agitation and "What do I do with those points/reservation now?"

Hypothetically, if you had a relative (X) that had DVC points, and another relative (Y) who had canceled before with you. Would you feel any obligation, moral or otherwise to warn X about what Y had done?

What if you found out that Y was asking X to make a reservation for them with a promise to pay later? Would you tell X anything then?

 

[Anewman]

Is it in the nature of any business that you are aware of where people break their agreements? Do you condone that type of behavior, in business or otherwise?

If that "agreement" allows cancellations and refunds they are not breaking an agreement.
And as a consumer of many products that allow returns/cancellations and refunds of course I condone it.

 

[Chuck S]

I feel your pain!! Anyone who has it happens, whether from family, friends, renters, etc. knows that it leaves you with a feeling of agitation and "What do I do with those points/reservation now?"

Hypothetically, if you had a relative (X) that had DVC points, and another relative (Y) who had canceled before with you. Would you feel any obligation, moral or otherwise to warn X about what Y had done?

What if you found out that Y was asking X to make a reservation for them with a promise to pay later? Would you tell X anything then?

Since I do not rent my points, but give them to relatives and friends that I think I would enjoy vacationing with, I would feel no obligation to "warn" another person in the family who may be a DVC member if they invite them for the same reason...of course, in our family, they'd probably know about it anyway

In fact, I've recently given 9 days in a OKW studio to some friends of mine for their honeymoon, gets me off the hook for a wedding present I gave them a deadline to cancel by, since the ressie crosses my use year, but they already have their air tickets, so I don't think they will cancel, except for possibly a death in the family. The groom's stepfather is very ill. And in that instance, it would not prevent me from inviting them in the future, even if I lost those points.

 

[gblast123]

If that "agreement" allows cancellations and refunds they are not breaking an agreement.
And as a consumer of many products that allow returns/cancellations and refunds of course I condone it.

The key phrase is "allows returns/cancellation"!! I have seen people return dead plants to costco.!! I would have difficulty doing that, and I feel that is "unethical" even though it is permitted by costco.

What if there was a garage sale and someone sold you an old sofa. Nothing was said about the possibility of a return. You pay for it, take it away and realize that it was the wrong color.

Would you think that it was ethical for you to go back and demand your money back? Would that person have the legal right keep your money and say no?

 

[gblast123]

Since I do not rent my points, but give them to relatives and friends that I think I would enjoy vacationing with, I would feel no obligation to "warn" another person in the family who may be a DVC member if they invite them for the same reason...of course, in our family, they'd probably know about it anyway

In fact, I've recently given 9 days in a OKW studio to some friends of mine for their honeymoon, gets me off the hook for a wedding present I gave them a deadline to cancel by, since the ressie crosses my use year, but they already have their air tickets, so I don't think they will cancel, except for possibly a death in the family. The groom's stepfather is very ill. And in that instance, it would not prevent me from inviting them in the future, even if I lost those points.

You are very generous, but another hypothetical.

If Y did the same thing to X that Y had previously done to you (ie unexpectedly and for no reason cancel a ressie), Do you think that X would like you very much if X found out that you didn't warn X about Y's behavior?

Your family may be very easygoing and not mind, but many people including some members of my family would immediately shout "WHY DIDN'T YOU WARN ME!!"

 

[Chuck S]

Perhaps Costco, like some retailers, guarantees their plants for a specific period of time. If so, the consumer is doing nothing unethical. Just as some folks return dead fish to a pet store, most are guaranteed for a period of time.

A garage sale generally is an "as is" sale, I would not consider anything from one "returnable."

But again, if you are a smart DVC owner (and a smart renter) all of this would be in writing for the protection of both. There would be nothing "unethical" about exercising the rights or imposing the consequences as spelled out in the agreement. If a renter cancels for a real emergency, then I would let my moral compass be my guide as to whether I refund or not...even though the contract may give me the specific right to keep all monies paid up to that point.

 

[Chuck S]

You are very generous, but another hypothetical.

If Y did the same thing to X that Y had previously done to you (ie unexpectedly and for no reason cancel a ressie), Do you think that X would like you very much if X found out that you didn't warn X about Y's behavior?

Your family may be very easygoing and not mind, but many people including some members of my family would immediately shout "WHY DIDN'T YOU WARN ME!!"

My response to "Why didn't you warn me?" would be that it was none of my business...which it true. X is free to do whatever they wish with their points and they may invite whomever they wish to use them, including inviting Y.