Re-framing the Conversation

[ArwenMarie]

Interesting. While the resorts are nice, I'm not sure that's a sound way to grow the business given the per-night costs of staying there.

Even so, I can totally see the reasons why they'd do it, and I'd be thrilled if people followed that trend. It might lessen the congestion that we're currently seeing. Of course, that might be wishful thinking....

Exactly. What they don't seem to get is that people don't travel to Orlando to bowl, fish, mini-golf or swim. There are a lot of other places you can go to do that, that are way nicer and cheaper.

I think the new FP+ will work great for people who are happy with 6 hours in the parks a day. For example, local AP holders.

 

[JimmyV]

One thing that Disney needs to do is incorporate its more recent successes into the parks. How long do they think they can continue to grab new audiences with characters from movies made in the 30's, 40's and 50's? When a new character like Merida, Rapunzel or Ana and Elsa are introduced via "face characters", it is a huge deal. But there is no real effort to incorporate huge hit movies into the parks, and that is a mistake. "Pixar Place" at DHS has one iconic Pixar reference there. And it is a disproportionaltely popular ride, given what the ride really is, if we're being honest. But by being tethered to something more "recent", it's a big hit. For a park that is sorely lacking in attractions, how could there not be anything related to Monsters Inc/Monsters U, The Incredibles, Brave, Cars, Up, Wall-E and so on? These movies account for very high percentages of recent revenues, yet Disney expects parents from GenX to entertain their kids through 60-80 year old reference points. If Disney spent half as much effort trying to capture its present as Universal does its present, the buzz surrounding WDW would quadruple.

 

[Claudia1]

My interest in FP+ is more than personal. I find it to be a fascinating study in marketing. I'm genuinely curious where they are headed next.

Yes, I can't imagine that giving us 3 FP+s per day is their end game....

 

[Mommy2Corinne]

You're correct in terms of profits. I'm not saying they're about to go under.

However, in today's Internet world, branding is so important. Yes, people will still go to the Disney parks and earn them profits. But there's an opportunity cost (to use a business term) by following their current path. Sure, they're still doing well, but how well could they have done?

There's also a lot of spin that goes into reporting their results. Disney's a public company and will never admit if satisfaction is going downward.

If Disney loses its most dedicated fans or even turns them off partially, it will impact them in some way in the future. Companies that seem unstoppable can get kicked down a notch if they aren't careful.

This is SO true. I've said this (less eloquently) in other threads; word of mouth (especially from dedicated fans) *does* matter. Maybe Disney won't see an impact on the bottom line today or even next year, but they eventually will if they keep chugging along this path. A company can only successfully thrive on past goodwill for so long.

 

[Disneychick75]

I'm not someone who comes to the DIS for positives and hates to read criticism. In fact, I find that complains can be some of the most interesting discussions. I work in Marketing and Business Development, and we focus a lot of attention on framing the message. No matter how good your services, it only works if the framing is done well.

I think Disney is running into this problem with a lot of their recent decisions. Stay with me. This isn't another negative rant. What I mean is that the perception (at least among many fans) is that Disney is looking at the bottom line and has lost the interest in new attractions. Once this frame is in place, whatever they do falls into that bucket. Even if that had a reason to raise ticket prices that made sense (I've heard many), it's still in that frame. FP+ may have hidden benefits, but they're selling it on deaf ears.

They're also stuck with the theme that they're a giant organization of MBA graduates that moves slowly and can't get anything done. The fact that Avatar is taking so long to build and the Snow White Mine Train still isn't open reinforces that theme. It's hard to sell magic with construction walls everywhere.

So what can Disney do? I think they really need to announce something big prior to the opening of Diagon Alley. While I'd prefer an amazing new ride, even re-theming a section of DHS to Star Wars that's just a restaurant and shops would get a lot of positive attention. Look at how much praise Universal got for Springfield, which is mostly well-themed food places! If they want to build positive momentum, they need to re-frame the discussion or risk losing the argument before it even begins.

I'm a huge fan of the Disney parks and subscribe to several fan magazines. I've found myself questioning the articles about "magic" in Celebrations Magazine because they come off false given the happenings at the parks in the past year. This is an example of how the framing in my brain has impacted even innocent articles from fans that I'd normally like. I think this is happening on the DIS, and I can't blame people for it.

So what can Disney do to re-frame the conversation among fans?

Thy will-probably another price increase.
If Disney announced plans for a new ride today, Harry Potter will be a grandpa before it's completed.

 

[Micca]

Subscribing to keep up with this terrific conversation!

 

[Planogirl]

I think they are trying to reframe the conversation by promoting the resorts. Remember those resort commercials that were just out...trying to promote the idea that the vacation isn't just about the parks, it's also about your onsite resort and all you can do there.

Same idea behind promoting various activities in the Mickey mail. It's why they have mini-golf and bowling and fishing and all that. It's why they are re-doing DTD.

I really think they want people spending about six hours at a park. 3 FPs, a show or parade and a meal. Then they want you doing other stuff, out of the parks, but onsite.

Anyway, I think the reframe is in motion, take it or leave it.

That's fine up to a point. However the moderates and budget resorts really don't have much to do in the afternoons unless you like to swim. Plus one can only shop and eat so much.

I could however see the PTB thinking that people staying in the parks for only six hours would help with crowds. I think that it's a bit clueless to really think that people won't go offsite though.

Except that it's not equal. Studies have shown that negative reviews spread 5-10 times further than positive ones.

True which makes those companies that grew from tiny businesses with a lot of help from good word of mouth so impressive. WDW has (had?) a stellar reputation but it only takes a handful of vocal people to cast doubt on that.

One thing that Disney needs to do is incorporate its more recent successes into the parks. How long do they think they can continue to grab new audiences with characters from movies made in the 30's, 40's and 50's? When a new character like Merida, Rapunzel or Ana and Elsa are introduced via "face characters", it is a huge deal. But there is no real effort to incorporate huge hit movies into the parks, and that is a mistake. "Pixar Place" at DHS has one iconic Pixar reference there. And it is a disproportionaltely popular ride, given what the ride really is, if we're being honest. But by being tethered to something more "recent", it's a big hit. For a park that is sorely lacking in attractions, how could there not be anything related to Monsters Inc/Monsters U, The Incredibles, Brave, Cars, Up, Wall-E and so on? These movies account for very high percentages of recent revenues, yet Disney expects parents from GenX to entertain their kids through 60-80 year old reference points. If Disney spent half as much effort trying to capture its present as Universal does its present, the buzz surrounding WDW would quadruple.

Not to mention that they aren't doing a thing to capitalize on the crazy popularity of Frozen. I don't understand why they so often move at a snail's pace.

 

[Donut23]

I agree that service needs to be a focus and has slipped, and that's impacting the experience considerably.

Even so, when I talk about setting a new frame, I'm thinking that Disney might be wise to take a break from marketing promotions like Year of a Million Dreams or Limited Time Magic. After you keep doing them every year, people's eye glaze over because it starts to feel manipulative. I recognize that some visitors had amazing experiences during the YOMD, and that's great. Even so, I wonder if that's become too much of the focus.

I'd rather they go back to basics and what built the reputation of the parks: Service and Attractions.

I don't just mean throwing money at the problem and building lots of high-tech rides. I'd rather they focus on upgrading dated attractions like Imagination and Energy or The Great Movie Ride. They could even sell it with some type of typical marketing slogan "A Fresh Coat of Magic" or something like that. I'd rather see that than have the chance of getting an extra service from a cast member.

People want to get excited about the Disney Parks, and I think that's part of even many of the negative comments here. There just comes a point where clever marketing isn't enough.

I vote for attention to details.....which seems to be lost.

DH is a CASTMEMBER and we realize how tough it is each year to simply maintain standards with less $$$$. Budgets are cut each year. For those who cannot help it and want to maintain Disney standards, it has to break their hears they cannot. We have watched the quality slide.

Here is an example.


I remember the first night of our annual early December pilgrimage the year we lost Lights of Winter. We were strolling the Poly beaches after a satisfying meal at Kona Cafe. We looked over to the Grand Floridian, yes the supposed grand dame of Disney hotels. You know the strings of lights outlining the rooftops? If 1 in 10 of the bulbs were working I would be surprised. We looked across the lagoon from our Beach Club room that night to the giant lit B ardwalk sign---never fixed in our 10 nights there. Lightbulbs all over WDW were out.

Sure, a little thing. But after that you can't help but notice things..... Flower beads with dead flowers, outside stairways with debris in the corner built up over a long time, debris floating in corners of water features....old cups, leaves, food wrappers.

We were sad beyond words that Lights of Winter would no longer dance for our enjoyment but the neglect was what continues to worry us.

You can choose to ingor it and we do our best. But that changes nothing.

If Disney wanted to make the fastest impact they would invest $$$$ to bring the entire place back to sparkling perfection. Only step one but trust me, people would notice.


I would have to stop saying

Give 'em less.........Charge 'em more.

 

[Tramp68]

That's fine up to a point. However the moderates and budget resorts really don't have much to do in the afternoons unless you like to swim. Plus one can only shop and eat so much.

I could however see the PTB thinking that people staying in the parks for only six hours would help with crowds. I think that it's a bit clueless to really think that people won't go offsite though.


True which makes those companies that grew from tiny businesses with a lot of help from good word of mouth so impressive. WDW has (had?) a stellar reputation but it only takes a handful of vocal people to cast doubt on that.


Not to mention that they aren't doing a thing to capitalize on the crazy popularity of Frozen. I don't understand why they so often move at a snail's pace.

A few years ago I spoke to a manager in the parks during some downtime. I asked about expanding Phineas and Ferb to more than a meet and greet. I was told that this would never happen since Phineas and Ferb were just a passing craze...I guess that is what Frozen is too...

 

[Peepster]

Oh.OP, thank you for this thread!!!!
This is a discussion that realists (and real Disney lovers) must have.

 

[Disneychick75]

Not to mention that they aren't doing a thing to capitalize on the crazy popularity of Frozen. I don't understand why they so often move at a snail's pace.

No kidding an Avatarland opening in 2017 for a movie released in 2009?

 

[flutterby3744]

A few years ago I spoke to a manager in the parks during some downtime. I asked about expanding Phineas and Ferb to more than a meet and greet. I was told that this would never happen since Phineas and Ferb were just a passing craze...I guess that is what Frozen is too...

I'm not so sure this is a fair comparison. P&F is a tv show, and as history shows, they mostly ARE a passing fad (Jo Jo's circus, anyone?). Frozen was just released to theaters a couple months ago....not even released on DVD yet. Time will tell if the Frozen craze is permanent. I don't blame Disney one bit for testing the waters first before spending the time and considerable money on an attraction.

 

[bumbershoot]

Year of a Million Dreams was lightning in a bottle and they would be smart to make THAT their ongoing everyday way of operating. It would cost them hardly anything to hand out Mickey ears, pins, free tix, a night in the Dream Suite etc each day...even giving out a DVC contract once in a while or a free trip or cruise wouldn't kill them.

That would be wonderful. Those were the years of our first real Disneyland trips, and I miss them so much. Sometimes I wish we'd just stuck with Disneyland. Our WDW trips haven't yet been anywhere near as much fun. I keep trying though! But DS and DH are losing interest. But I just keep giving more chances and more chances, even while not liking something...

Disney is not JCPenny---a company that struggled in the market for decades in attempts to redefine themselves and their brand---up and down...up and down with no consistency.

What if they are at the beginning of that stage?

WDW's popularity, in my circle, is driven by the ads that make you think it'll be amazing AND by people telling each other about their trips. Well, a few (including me) just aren't having as much fun anymore. And we're talking about it. And it's possible that other friends who haven't yet gone are going to hear this and start to think about waiting, or just not going.

With JCP I sort of had to shop there anyway, during that time. They have sizes for DH that work for him, and prices that work for us. So I kept going in. I heard all the bad stories about JCP, but I never *really* experienced them. I'm semi-immune to marketing and all that (to the point that when I am sucked in by marketing, it's very very noticeable and I'm able to see it happening) so while I saw what they were doing in the stores (everything I despise about going into the Apple store...oh and the Apple products I've been so loyal to in the past are awful now, and I don't know what I'll do when my laptop dies and my iphone goes kablooie again or when they just decide to stop supporting the OS like NO computer company did, ever), I still needed the clothes and the prices, so I ignored that and ignored the "word on the street" and just went.

There are people who will do that for WDW. There are lots of others who won't.

In this day where you can control literally EVERYTHING about your life in an app. People REALLY thought that Disney wouldn't "tech" up their system????


It's REALLY too bad they messed it up so badly, then. I can get a free app that does a gazillion things SO much better than any part of Disney's crud. And I didn't NEED the stuff Disney's doing. It wasn't necessary at all. Things were going fine. Does anyone remember that they have been messing with the website, etc, for OVER a year now?


Give it a few weeks, and you will see more kiosks pop up, and software bugs will get worked out.

Again. Over a year. Site first started changing last, I believe, November. And I'm talking 2012. The app doesn't always work. Give them a few weeks? I doubt it. They are incredibly bad at what they are doing.

We weren't big FP people anyway, and I'm a supporter of on-site guest perks. ...The only exception to this would be AP holders...they should absolutely get the same perks as on-site guests, ESPECIALLY FL residents.

From my perspective, FP+ is the ONLY onsite guest perk, though. Nothing else is fabulous for me in terms of perks. I avoid EMH, we haven't yet had plain tickets so we always have parking paid for, we don't send packages back to the resort...

And WHY should AP holders, especially FL ones, have access? The ones paying the least per-visit should get more? We've only had APs for our visits because we schedule them in clumps, and even I don't believe that. When I found out how little my cousins paid for their FL passes I just about passed out.

I think the new FP+ will work great for people who are happy with 6 hours in the parks a day.

I think you're right.

But...I didn't ever want only 6 hours in the parks. I want the whole day there. I want to go go go and have tons of fun. But that's not going to happen now. 3 rides and then standby lines? That's going to wear out even my son's feet and we'll all get cranky and we'll go back to the resort. And we'll go to Sweet Tomatoes for dinner, we'll shop at GiftLand instead of DTD for any souvenirs, and for a casual, relaxed time we'll go over to Universal for a butterbeer later on (b/c we have APs there that I believe we'll always keep). Making it a 6 hour day takes my family away from spending money at their parks and giftshops. It reminds me that there's an outside world (I'm not one that wants or needs the "bubble" of WDW), and gives us a nice opportunity to experience it.

If I want 6 hours in a park I'll go to the amusement park/waterpark 20 minutes up the road from me (open in summer). When I go to Disney, I want to be there all day.

 

[Networth]

Disney has one of the most powerful brands in the world. Nothing that they are doing now in WDW will diminish that brand. They might be able to do a few things to make patrons feel a little better about their experiences while in WDW, but WDW is a tiny part of their business. Disney executives probably spend a lot less time thinking about WDW than most people on the Dis would believe.

This. The Walt Disney Company owns five vacation resorts, eleven theme parks, two water parks, thirty-nine hotels, eight motion picture studios, six record labels, eleven cable television networks, and one terrestrial television network. WDW is only a portion of their business, people forget that very often.

 

[kbelle8995]

Here's my query. I am curious about where the FP+ program is going from here.

Will it be used in other parks? Honestly I don't see it working at Disneyland with their mostly local crowd.

Perhaps Disneyland Paris, or the Asian parks? I think that it is a system that does not work for everyone. Perhaps the key here is flexiblity.

JMO but I would have preferred they spent that money freshing up the park

 

[flicx]

Here's my query. I am curious about where the FP+ program is going from here.

Will it be used in other parks? Honestly I don't see it working at Disneyland with their mostly local crowd.

Perhaps Disneyland Paris, or the Asian parks? I think that it is a system that does not work for everyone. Perhaps the key here is flexiblity.

JMO but I would have preferred they spent that money freshing up the park

I asked a very similar question on a different thread and never really got a good answer. Is this it, is this what the 1.5 billion plus was spent on? What more are they gonna give the customer with this ultra expensive system? I sure hope there is something more, otherwise I think it is like that dire straits song Money for nothing.

 

[disnut8]

No kidding an Avatarland opening in 2017 for a movie released in 2009?

Avatar is an ongoing series. Three more films will be coming out so it's not just for one film, it's for a series of films.

 

[tabby1881]

I haven't read through all the posts but I'm going back to Disney World for the first time since last Labor Day. That was a trip I wish I could forget - I was in a wheelchair due to health issues and since then, I've lost my father who, back in 1978, was so impressed by Disney World he kept standing on our campsite at Fort Wilderness with his hands on his hips, looking at the swan on the little steam behind our trailer and saying, "how did they do this?" He was a truck driver and could read maps out the wazoo but a special moment for me (at the age of 15) was showing him, on the Fort Wilderness map, was how we could be facing the way we were. He was amazed and that sealed it for me.

Disney World is so much more than just rides. I wish I could give that feeling to others so they can enjoy before the most important others in their lives aren't there anymore to enjoy things with them.

I know this is very off topic here but think about it. Disney World is a "place". You spend money to go there. But what you do there is the important thing in your life. And with others that you do it with. So enjoy while you can.

I loved reading about your dad's reaction to Disney. What a great memory for you.

 

[SyracuseWolvrine]

Disney has been advertising Maleficent nonstop on t.v. and people are going to say " hey, let's go see the movie in June"----then they'll want to meet Sleeping Beauty and Maleficent in the Disney parks.

Yes, but if you ignore the Marvel franchises, Disney's last 3 live action "Summer blockbuster" type movies have been The Lone Ranger, John Carter, and the 4th Pirates movie. Pirates did decently, but not as well as the first 3 movies. John Carter and the Lone Ranger were both largely flops. I'm not sure I would count on Maleficent to bring in huge crowds to the theme parks.

 

[flutterby3744]

That would be wonderful. Those were the years of our first real Disneyland trips, and I miss them so much. Sometimes I wish we'd just stuck with Disneyland. Our WDW trips haven't yet been anywhere near as much fun. I keep trying though! But DS and DH are losing interest. But I just keep giving more chances and more chances, even while not liking something...




What if they are at the beginning of that stage?

WDW's popularity, in my circle, is driven by the ads that make you think it'll be amazing AND by people telling each other about their trips. Well, a few (including me) just aren't having as much fun anymore. And we're talking about it. And it's possible that other friends who haven't yet gone are going to hear this and start to think about waiting, or just not going.

With JCP I sort of had to shop there anyway, during that time. They have sizes for DH that work for him, and prices that work for us. So I kept going in. I heard all the bad stories about JCP, but I never *really* experienced them. I'm semi-immune to marketing and all that (to the point that when I am sucked in by marketing, it's very very noticeable and I'm able to see it happening) so while I saw what they were doing in the stores (everything I despise about going into the Apple store...oh and the Apple products I've been so loyal to in the past are awful now, and I don't know what I'll do when my laptop dies and my iphone goes kablooie again or when they just decide to stop supporting the OS like NO computer company did, ever), I still needed the clothes and the prices, so I ignored that and ignored the "word on the street" and just went.

There are people who will do that for WDW. There are lots of others who won't.




From my perspective, FP+ is the ONLY onsite guest perk, though. Nothing else is fabulous for me in terms of perks. I avoid EMH, we haven't yet had plain tickets so we always have parking paid for, we don't send packages back to the resort...

And WHY should AP holders, especially FL ones, have access? The ones paying the least per-visit should get more? We've only had APs for our visits because we schedule them in clumps, and even I don't believe that. When I found out how little my cousins paid for their FL passes I just about passed out.




I think you're right.

But...I didn't ever want only 6 hours in the parks. I want the whole day there. I want to go go go and have tons of fun. But that's not going to happen now. 3 rides and then standby lines? That's going to wear out even my son's feet and we'll all get cranky and we'll go back to the resort. And we'll go to Sweet Tomatoes for dinner, we'll shop at GiftLand instead of DTD for any souvenirs, and for a casual, relaxed time we'll go over to Universal for a butterbeer later on (b/c we have APs there that I believe we'll always keep). Making it a 6 hour day takes my family away from spending money at their parks and giftshops. It reminds me that there's an outside world (I'm not one that wants or needs the "bubble" of WDW), and gives us a nice opportunity to experience it.

If I want 6 hours in a park I'll go to the amusement park/waterpark 20 minutes up the road from me (open in summer). When I go to Disney, I want to be there all day.

I, of course, don't know you so I'm merely speculating....but it seems as if you've lost "the magic". It appears that you have gone just about every year according to your sig, so maybe it's like a long married couple: you see each other day in and day out, and that spark has just faded. You know what they say, "absence makes the heart grow fonder". perhaps it's time you took a break. Spend your vacation money on something else and give you heart a chance to miss WDW. It's really too bad you are feeling so disenchanted. Give yourself a break, look at it in a few years with fresh eyes.