Quick question - "unschooling"..

So how is it then that there are so many schools with a religious curriculum around the country :confused3

I should have phrased it differently. That's what happens before coffee kicks in :headache:. What I was trying to say is if the Government were to regulate Homeschoolers like they do public schools by telling them what to teach at what grade level and which materials to use, many parent's would be upset as quite a few who Homeschool do so for religious reasons and use mostly religious curriculum (Bob Jones is a popular one). If the Government were to get involved and tell parents they could only use 'approved' materials to teach their kids then all the freedom of Homeschooling would be gone.
 
Here it is.. Luckily I remembered to put it in my favorites..:)

http://education.stateuniversity.com/pages/1878/Compulsory-School-Attendance.html



The term compulsory attendance refers to state legislative mandates for attendance in public schools (or authorized alternatives) by children within certain age ranges for specific periods of time within the year. Components of compulsory attendance laws include admission and exit ages, length of the school year, enrollment requirements, alternatives, waivers and exemptions, enforcement, and truancy provisions.

Compulsory age requirements vary by state. Data collected by the Education Commission of the States in March 2000 indicate that the earliest age for compulsory attendance is five, with a range to seven, and the upper age limit varies from sixteen to eighteen. Withdrawal from school prior to the age limit is permissible in some states, provided certain conditions are met. State policies setting the length of the school year differ as well. The 2000 Council of Chief State School Officers Policies and Practices Survey indicates that state requirements for the number of school days range from 175 to 186, with variations on exceptions, minimum hours, and start dates.

Enforcement of compulsory attendance laws is usually accomplished through local school attendance officers, superintendents, law enforcement officers, and municipal or juvenile domestic relations courts. Parents, or those persons with legal custody, are held responsible for school attendance in every state. Penalties for noncompliance can include fines and jail sentences, but these are not usually imposed until administrative measures prove unsuccessful. Consequences for students vary but include removal from regular classrooms and placement in alternative programs and denial of driving privileges. In some states, criminal penalties exist for contributing to truancy.

The authority for compulsory attendance laws has been defined through courts of law as a valid use of the police power of the state provided by the U.S. Constitution. The U.S. Supreme Court opinion in Meyer v. Nebraska (1923) describes the police power of states as "founded on the right of the State to protect its citizens, to provide for their welfare and progress and to insure the good of society" (Gee and Sperry, p. C-19).

Development of Compulsory School Attendance Philosophy and Laws
The authority of a state to mandate that parents send children to school has not always been endorsed or recognized in the United States. Parental provision of instruction for children originated with the English poor laws of the sixteenth century, which required vocational training for destitute youth. Schools were organized in connection with poor-houses and workhouses for training the inhabitants' children.

In colonial America, the earliest educational laws required training in skills and trades through apprenticeships for orphans and needy children–a large population due to the immigration of youth as indentured servants. By the mid-eighteenth century, laws had been expanded to include training in reading and writing. Teaching children the fundamental skill of reading enabled religious instruction and reading of the Bible.

The first compulsory education law in America was enacted in 1642 by the Massachusetts Bay Colony. This law required parents to provide an understanding of the principles of religion to children under their care, as well as an education in reading, writing, and a trade. Other New England colonies adopted similar laws between 1642 and 1671, but the southern colonies did not enact laws for apprenticed children until 1705.

Early laws were driven by the need for individuals to understand religious principles and moral concepts and to meet the expectations of their station as citizens. They provided the foundation for governmental action to require education, even if it was seen as more of a private responsibility than a public one. The concept of freedom of children from work while attending school was not included, and would not be until the nineteenth century.


Interest and support for compulsory education declined during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries due to several factors, including movement from towns into the frontier, the need for children to work at home, difficulty in enforcement, and less emphasis on religion. After the American Revolution, new reasons for interest in an educated citizenry appeared, based on democratic ideals, religious tolerance, and the integration of immigrants into the mainstream of American society.

In 1852 the state of Massachusetts passed a weak law to require attendance in schools. The Massachusetts School Attendance Act of 1852 specified that children between the ages of eight and fourteen had to attend school for twelve weeks per year, six of which had to be consecutive if the school remained open for that time. Although unclear and ill-defined, exemptions were included in the law, as were penalties for enforcement.

Early compulsory attendance laws provided for a minimum time that children had to attend school before they could be lawfully employed, usually three months, but enforcement was lax. The South lagged behind, and many of the laws of the southern states left enforcement and practice to localities. The early laws were vague, and parents who needed children at home to help earn a living resisted.

By 1900 court cases had affirmed state enforcement of compulsory attendance laws based on the benefit to the child and the welfare and safety of the state and community. In 1901 the authority to mandate school attendance was expressed in the Indiana Supreme Court opinion for State v. Bailey. The finding stated that "the welfare of the child and the best interests of society require that the state shall exert its sovereign authority to secure to the child the opportunity to acquire an education" (Hudgins and Vacca, p. 275). In the 1944 case of Prince v. Massachusetts, the U.S. Supreme Court declared: "Acting to guard the general interest in youth's well being, the state as parens patriae may restrict the parent's control by requiring school attendance, regulating or prohibiting the child's labor, and in many other ways" (Gee and Sperry, p C-20).

Lawrence Kotin and William Aiken, in their book Legal Foundations of Compulsory School Attendance (1980), cite several conditions in the labor sector that reinforced the sentiment for compulsory attendance in schools. The need for a general education for children was reinforced by the need to protect children from abuse in the workplace (as expressed through child labor laws). In addition, the need for skilled and literate workers increased as the industrial age unfolded. Working children provided competition for employment in unskilled jobs that adults needed, providing another factor for wanting children to be in school. An alignment of labor leaders and advocates of self-sufficiency and improvement in the human condition created a demand for longer years in school and school attendance.

A National Bureau of Economic Research study found that school attendance rates in 1900 were significantly raised in those states that combined compulsory school attendance with child labor laws. By the second decade of the twentieth century, a majority of states had specific child labor laws that set the minimum age for employment at fourteen and included specification of the completion of school grades and other educational requirements.

Exemptions and Alternatives
The expansion of learning arrangements recognized by state law as alternatives to attendance in public schools has evolved through case law. According to Gee and Sperry, compulsory attendance laws must meet the demands of reasonableness. This term was defined in the U.S. Supreme Court case Pierce v. Society of Sisters (1925). In this case, the state of Oregon required that children within the age ranges of the compulsory attendance law attend public school only, or their parents would be guilty of a misdemeanor. The Court ruled in favor of the operators of a private school that challenged the state law, finding the statute unconstitutional on the basis of violating the fourteenth amendment rights of the parents and the property rights of schools. The court supported compulsory attendance but not the concept that compliance could only be achieved through public schools. Private schools were an alternative.


The right of parents to provide an alternative to public or private schooling to honor and preserve religious convictions was established through the case of Wisconsin v. Yoder (1972). Members of the Old Order Amish Religions objected to formal public schooling beyond the eighth grade because it presented and reinforced values that were in opposition to beliefs of the Amish community. The Amish had experienced conflict with state authorities over compulsory school attendance over the years, but, instead of litigation, would pay fines, be subjected to short-term jailings, or move.

Amish parents Jonas Yoder and Adin Yutzy appealed the decision of the Wisconsin Circuit Court that convicted them for violating Wisconsin's mandate for school attendance until the age of sixteen. The state of Wisconsin justified the conviction based on the need to preserve the political system, ensure economic survival, and provide for the socialization of children. A basic education, the state declared, included the ability to read and reason in order to evaluate issues and exercise citizens' rights such as voting. The Wisconsin Supreme Court, however, reversed the lower court ruling. The court found that the Amish alternative to formal secondary school education could convey "the social and political responsibilities of citizenship without compelled attendance beyond the eighth grade at the price of jeopardizing their free exercise of religious belief" (Gee and Sperry, p. 23).

The United States Supreme Court upheld this decision in 1972, with Chief Justice Warren Burger ruling: "A State's interest in universal education is not totally free from a balancing process when it impinges on other fundamental rights and interests, such as those specifically protected by the Free Exercise clause of the First Amendment and the traditional interest of parents with respect to the religious upbringing of their children" (Keim, p. 98).

State compulsory attendance statutes have been amended to provide for students attending alternative education programs, as well as for various waivers and exemptions. For example, the Code of Virginia states that requirements for compulsory attendance may be satisfied by sending a child to an alternative program of study or work-study offered through a public, private, denominational, or parochial school, or by a public or private degree-granting institution of higher education. A local school board must excuse from school attendance any pupil who, with his or her parents, is conscientiously opposed to attendance due to religious training or belief. Also mandated is release from attendance by local school boards for verified medical reasons or for personal safety as determined by a juvenile and domestic-relations district court.

Virginia law recognizes home instruction by parents or instruction by tutors, provided that specified conditions are met, and provisions for some form of home schooling are provided in the majority of the fifty states. Other exemptions and delays for attendance are made for children with medical, physical, or emotional problems. Exceptions to compulsory attendance laws may be made if children within certain ages do not have public transportation provided within certain distances from their homes. Information provided by the Education Commission of the States in 2000 shows that, in several states, students sixteen years old may be eligible for withdrawal from the regular classroom if fully employed or enrolled in alternative education programs, with approval by parents and principals.

Issues Associated with Compulsory Attendance
Despite the changes in state laws to increase flexibility, there are some critics who maintain that compulsory school attendance should be ended. The National Center for Policy Analysis provides some of the arguments to lower the compulsory school upper age limit, or to limit hours. Opponents claim that compulsory school attendance does not necessarily result in better education for students, but could subject them to social engineering. Others claim that compulsory attendance results in prolonged adolescence and suggest that forced attendance in high school could contribute to violence and discipline problems. Compulsory attendance laws have been said to limit innovation and be burdensome for parents who home-school their children. Yet the National Center for Policy Analysis cites statistics indicating that students who attend school a greater percentage of time than their counterparts with lesser attendance records score higher on state knowledge and skills tests.

Respondents to the thirty-third annual Phi Delta Kappa/Gallup Poll of the public's attitudes toward the public schools, conducted in January 2001, support reforming the existing public school system by almost two-to-one, rather than creating alternatives to the existing system. Seventy-five percent of the respondents prefer to improve the existing public school system rather than provide vouchers to pay for private or church-related schools.

Not only is an argument made for attendance at schools in order to prepare children for employment and economic success, but also for the development of values and the character traits needed for citizenship. The Center on Education Policy makes the case that public education is essential not only in teaching the principles of democracy and the role of government, but also in promoting civic values and the philosophy of tolerance for diversity and respect for differences in race and religion.

Whether the basis is economic self-sufficiency, educational reform, preparation for work or further study, character development, or promotion of the citizenry and the democratic way of life, the reasons for compulsory attendance of some kind reinforce the continued existence of state statutes. However, changing circumstances, flexibility for parents and students, and the needs of various student populations continue to shape these laws and contribute to their evolution.



Read more: Compulsory School Attendance - Development of Compulsory School Attendance Philosophy and Laws, Exemptions and Alternatives, Issues Associated with Compulsory Attendance - Education, Children, Public, Court, and Parents http://education.stateuniversity.com/pages/1878/Compulsory-School-Attendance.html#ixzz0wsnTVGoW
 
Well, if it isn't confusing enough--I'm about to toss some more terminology.

There are things such as umbrella schools---they maintain portfolios for you. The student is "enrolled", but the parent does the education. The umbrella school just maintains records for you. Some states mandate at least that. I find that a nuisance myself as I am capable of maintaining my own records. Some parents like to do that so someone else is making sure records are maintained and they don't have to worry about it. Others may be able to shed more light on that.

Then there are co-ops. Homeschooling is simply parent directed education. The parent does not necessarily have to personally teach each and every subject. Co-ops allow groups of families to share the burden...say one parent has a chemistry degree, another is a math genius, while another would mAke a fine enforcer of grammar...so they trade duties. One teaches the math, the other science, etc.

The Amish school is probably a blend of those 2 concepts. They have been granted the constitutional right to do just that (I am guessing) without necessarily having to follow state laws that govern public and private schools.
Okay - first of all, this thread is becoming both political and religious - both of which are against DIS guidelines - and I was hoping I could get an answer to my question without it going in that direction.. I would really appreciate it if we could discuss this without breaking any rules..

Thanks! :)

-----------------------------

Secondly, it was late last night, I was tired from doing research all day, and I didn't word one of my responses correctly..

The Amish were never told that they had to send their children to an "Amish" school - owned by the Amish - and taught by either an Amish or Mennonite teacher.. I was giving an example of what they chose to do after they were forced to comply with the law regarding educating their children through the 8th grade.. My mistake - I should have been a little clearer - but as I said, it was late and I was tired.. Let's see if I can do any better today - LOL..

So - do we know that the Amish must "educate" their children at least through the 8th grade - or are we still up in the air on that? What I have found thus far indicates that's a given - in order to be in compliance..

Maybe they choose to send their children to their local one-room Amish school simply because the parents don't have the time to homeschool (grades 1 thru 8) while also working farms without the modern time-saving machinery and such that the "English" have? Is that a logical thought?

I did find a link today about "compulsory" education (for everyone - not just the Amish) this morning, but it's still kind of vague on accountability, actual laws, etc.. I'll see if I can post a link - if anyone is interested in giving it a quick glance to help me out here..

I'll have to do it in my next post though as I have to track it down again..

Thanks for the help so far..:thumbsup2
 
So how is it then that there are so many schools with a religious curriculum around the country :confused3



I cannot speak for any specific state....

Private institutions are not operated by tax dollars, so they can augment the education with first amendment protected statements of belief.

However, they are still under some type of "rules" just like a public school...having to do standardizes testing for example.

Not everyone can afford private school tuition though and those students should be afforded the same freedoms to have a curriculum that isn't selected by the government as their peers with larger household budgets get to enjoy.

Govt provides an education as a right. But it is any family's right to choose a different educational path If that is what is best for their family.

I can afford $1000-$1500 a year on curriculum and materials. I cannot afford $4000 per child to get a private education nor should that be my only option if I wish a differerent program than public schools have to offer.

FWIW, my curriculum originates from a private school. But That was after much research on the type of education we wished our children to have. It isn't local, so even if affordable, attending is not an option.

But again--we chose. We were not forced.
 

Well, if it isn't confusing enough--I'm about to toss some more terminology.

There are things such as umbrella schools---they maintain portfolios for you. The student is "enrolled", but the parent does the education. The umbrella school just maintains records for you. Some states mandate at least that. I find that a nuisance myself as I am capable of maintaining my own records. Some parents like to do that so someone else is making sure records are maintained and they don't have to worry about it. Others may be able to shed more light on that.

Then there are co-ops. Homeschooling is simply parent directed education. The parent does not necessarily have to personally teach each and every subject. Co-ops allow groups of families to share the burden...say one parent has a chemistry degree, another is a math genius, while another would mAke a fine enforcer of grammar...so they trade duties. One teaches the math, the other science, etc.

The Amish school is probably a blend of those 2 concepts. They have been granted the constitutional right to do just that (I am guessing) without necessarily having to follow state laws that govern public and private schools.

Thanks for all of your efforts, Lisa..:goodvibes I will be so glad when fall arrives and we take our day trip to visit an Amish community or two and actually speak to an Amish parent.. And - considering NY is so strict about so many things, it will be interesting to hear if certain aspects of required schooling are a little more stringent here than say, Lancaster - or Ohio..
-----------------

Hope I'm not boring you folks to tears, but I'm so interested in the Amish and when I can't find what I'm looking for, the first place I turn is the DIS..:thumbsup2

Thanks to all who have taken the time to reply..:goodvibes
 
C. Ann---compulsorary attendance laws vary by state as education is state governed, not federally governed. This is why in 50 different states, you will find 50 unique sets of laws regulation everything about education. Even if two states were nearly identical, there would be something that is different between them.

The federal govt cannot make states do anything (blanking on what makes that so), but they can and do have program in place that enourage the states to tweak their laws to some kind of national baseline. That is where I get fuzzy,,,but NCLB is one such idea.

Wisconsin seemed to have restrictive policies that warranted that lawsuit. Less restrictive states wouldn't need to explicitly make special accomodatiins if their laws in some way already cover that.

And yes--compulsory attendance laws are how the states attempted to strong arm parents from the right to home educate. The different homeschooling lwas in each state are how children get exempts from having to show up at a school so that they are not considered truant.
 
Secondly, it was late last night, I was tired from doing research all day, and I didn't word one of my responses correctly..

The Amish were never told that they had to send their children to an "Amish" school - owned by the Amish - and taught by either an Amish or Mennonite teacher.. I was giving an example of what they chose to do after they were forced to comply with the law regarding educating their children through the 8th grade.. My mistake - I should have been a little clearer - but as I said, it was late and I was tired.. Let's see if I can do any better today - LOL..

So - do we know that the Amish must "educate" their children at least through the 8th grade - or are we still up in the air on that? What I have found thus far indicates that's a given - in order to be in compliance..

Maybe they choose to send their children to their local one-room Amish school simply because the parents don't have the time to homeschool (grades 1 thru 8) while also working farms without the modern time-saving machinery and such that the "English" have? Is that a logical thought?


PLEASE read Wisconsin v. Yoder, a 1972 U.S. Supreme Court decision that ruled in favor of the Amish. They were never forced by the U.S. government to educate their children through the 8th grade. They believe in education, just not beyond 8th grade. The Amish have long believed that NOT enrolling their children in high school (9th grade and higher) is to the benefit of the family and their religious beliefs

Facts of the case:
Three Amish families sued the state of Wisconsin over its requirement that children be enrolled in school until the age of sixteen. The parents refused to comply by removing their children from school after they completed the eighth grade and were convicted of violating the law. The families claimed that their rights to freely exercising their religion were not being respected. The Wisconsin Supreme Court found in favor of the Amish parents.

They don't always choose to send their children to a local one-room schoolhouse. There are many Amish and Mennonite children in our public elem. and middle school. As there are many Methodists, Presbyterians and Baptists.

Because we still live in a free country they are free to choose where there children will be educated - a public school, a private school or an Amish school. The same as a non-Amish is free to choose. It's a personal decision made by each family based on what they feel is best. Maybe because they farm but I do know many Amish around here that do not farm all day long. They work non-Amish jobs too. Like factories. I know an Amish family that has a store they run. How are they schooling their children? At home.
 
In my state, I am required to go to a review once or twice a year. The first review is to ensure that I actually have curriculuum and if there's a second review, it is to simply see a sample of the child's work. I am thankful there is no standardized testing. I don't want to spend a certain percentage of our time preparing for a test that contains what a committee of "experts" decided my child needs to know.

Of couse, now we are getting close to SAT time, and my oldest child will be preparing for that because there's no way around it :goodvibes. Amazingly, I think she's ready for it - even without more government oversight all these years ;).
 
I've actually found this thread interesting and will use some of the points here when we do our studies of the Amish this year. Who says you can't learn anything on the Dis boards? :thumbsup2
 
PLEASE read Wisconsin v. Yoder, a 1972 U.S. Supreme Court decision that ruled in favor of the Amish. They were never forced by the U.S. government to educate their children through the 8th grade. They believe in education, just not beyond 8th grade. The Amish have long believed that NOT enrolling their children in high school (9th grade and higher) is to the benefit of the family and their religious beliefs

Facts of the case:
Three Amish families sued the state of Wisconsin over its requirement that children be enrolled in school until the age of sixteen. The parents refused to comply by removing their children from school after they completed the eighth grade and were convicted of violating the law. The families claimed that their rights to freely exercising their religion were not being respected. The Wisconsin Supreme Court found in favor of the Amish parents.

They don't always choose to send their children to a local one-room schoolhouse. There are many Amish and Mennonite children in our public elem. and middle school. As there are many Methodists, Presbyterians and Baptists.

Because we still live in a free country they are free to choose where there children will be educated - a public school, a private school or an Amish school. The same as a non-Amish is free to choose. It's a personal decision made by each family based on what they feel is best. Maybe because they farm but I do know many Amish around here that do not farm all day long. They work non-Amish jobs too. Like factories. I know an Amish family that has a store they run. How are they schooling their children? At home.

Yes - I've read the Supreme Court ruling.. However, both in Wisconsin and Iowa parents were being fined and jailed for refusing to send their children to school beyond what the Amish felt was an appropriate age - whether they had completed the 8th grade or not.. There are many news articles from that time period - photos of Amish children running into cornfields to hide when "officials" came to remove them from the farms and force them to attend school - and things got so bad in Nebraska (who would not budge on the issue of education) all of the Amish communities packed up and left the state.. In some states, children were even removed from their homes by Child Protective Services for not attending school.. Eventually the Amish compromised (after the Supreme Court ruling) with state officials (in whatever state they were residing in) and agreed to keep their children in school through the 8th grade - as long as they could choose what school that would be (preferably their own), what the children would be taught, and who the teacher would be (preferably Amish or Mennonite)..

I would be interested to learn what - if any problems - they face now (in terms of fines and imprisonment) 30+ years after the Supreme Court ruling and the willingness of the Amish to compromise with state regulations..

Fascinating stuff..:goodvibes
 
I've actually found this thread interesting and will use some of the points here when we do our studies of the Amish this year. Who says you can't learn anything on the Dis boards? :thumbsup2

If you are interested, I can give you a long list of non-fiction books pertaining to the Amish - and their lifestyle - that might be of help.. Either you could look for them in your local library - or many of them can be purchased used for as little as 75 cents at times on half.com

Just send me a PM.. I'm getting PM's left and right due to these Amish threads I've started - requesting lists for both fiction and non-fiction - and I would be happy to help you out.. :goodvibes

I also listed quite a few books on my other Amish threads here on the CB - if you would like to do a search and take a peek..;)
 
My states constitution is written in such a way that the only requirement it holds non-school attending children to is that the parent has to imform the school district/school board that it is withdrawing a student and that they are going to provide "equivalent instructions". Which means they will be getting some kind of educations, though the state does not require any standards or require any proof of progress or curriculum.

It also requires equivilant time. The state requires students to attend 175 days of instruction. Homeschoolers must also have 175 instruction days, but unlike public schools that do a four-six hour day depending on grade level, home schoolers can count any three hours of instruction as a day no matter what level.

Personally I wish they did do some sort of check and balance at least every two years or so, but they are following what are state constitutions gives them the right to do.

All OK colleges and Universities require that any entering student take and pass the ACT, so most of the homeschoolers/unschoolers/whatever schoolers that I come into contact with do have the kids take this test.
 
ahh - compulsory attendance laws!

Oh - the reason they are different in every state is because state's rights are SOVEREIGN!!! (and yes, I'm passionate about that, not trying to sound defensive, just passionate. :goodvibes And...treading lightly trying not to get too political...that's sort of what the Civil War was about...ahem. Despite the fact that the things certain states wanted were morally repugnant. And that's enough - or maybe too much- about that).

Anyway, in our state compulsory attendance is from 7-16. This means that if you choose to homeschool your 6 year old or your 17 year old, you don't have to turn in any kind of forms to anyone, or do anything at all as hey are not legally required to be in school.

From what C. Ann posted, I believe the state government was trying to force the Amish to send their children to school until age 16, when they wanted to send them only until age 13. Also, back in 1972, homeschooling was virtually unknown, so I don't know if they (the Amish) would have considered it as an option).


Oh, and earlier, I didn't mean to sound defensive, it's just something I'm passionate about. Also, it's very scary to think that things that are going on in Sweden and Germany right now could someday happen here. I think of families fleeing places like Darfur, not Germany!

http://***************************/article/2519423/persecuted_for_homeschooling_swedish.html?cat=25

This German family was granted political asylum just this year. They're living in Tennessee now.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5174919,00.html

Hans Bruegelmann, an education professor at the University of Siegen made the following statement about this family's Christian beliefs: "They should not have the right to indoctrinate their children."

I'm sorry but that gives me CHILLS!!! If the parents don't have the right to raise their children, then who does??? Catholic parents, Jewish parents, Amish parents, even atheist parents have the right to teach their children their beliefs! Not the government!! Don't think it can't happen here if we hide our heads in the sand and wish it to go away.

Everyone should have the right to choose what it best for their child!
 


Disney Vacation Planning. Free. Done for You.
Our Authorized Disney Vacation Planners are here to provide personalized, expert advice, answer every question, and uncover the best discounts. Let Dreams Unlimited Travel take care of all the details, so you can sit back, relax, and enjoy a stress-free vacation.
Start Your Disney Vacation
Disney EarMarked Producer

New Posts







DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest DIS Tiktok DIS Twitter

Add as a preferred source on Google

Back
Top Bottom