question on direct vs. resale

[Heather07438]

"BVTC has reserved the right to associate additional resorts as DVC Resorts or delete existing DVC
Resorts from time to time."

That seems more as a protection to make clear some resorts may come, some resorts may go ‘from time to time’.
It is not really legal ground to cut off access to every other non-home resort in one chop. If they wanted the power to do that, they would’ve spelled it out more clearly. This statement just reads as a reminder that DVC may +/- some resorts from time to time as could happen with adding new resorts, or temporarily/permanently removing resorts with expired contracts or potentially for other reasons. It would be a huge reach to use that clause for anything beyond that.
‘From time to time’ implies an evolving situation, not a one and done blow like removing all non-home resorts. There may be other clauses to allow them but this one doesn’t look it to me.

 

[Sandisw]

Not really, If a home resort is removed from BVTC, then you no longer have the right to trade.

While it may not be likely, it is a reality of the contract. Just like you keep mentioning there is no promise of those buying direct, including RIV are guaranteed to be used at future resorts, owners are not guaranteed the right to trade to other O14 if it is removed from the club.

The post said you are only guaranteed OKW which is true so your response was not clear. Sorry about that!

They certainly can add more resale restrictions for sure, but you are correct that one of them for O14 is not restricting to home resort.

That restriction would apply to all points at that resort since once removed from BVTC, it no longer trades at all.

 

[Sandisw]

That seems more as a protection to make clear some resorts may come, some resorts may go ‘from time to time’.
It is not really legal ground to cut off access to every other non-home resort in one chop. If they wanted the power to do that, they would’ve spelled it out more clearly. This statement just reads as a reminder that DVC may +/- some resorts from time to time as could happen with adding new resorts, or temporarily/permanently removing resorts with expired contracts or potentially for other reasons. It would be a huge reach to use that clause for anything beyond that.
‘From time to time’ implies an evolving situation, not a one and done blow like removing all non-home resorts. There may be other clauses to allow them but this one doesn’t look it to me.

The point I think, stretch or not, is the use of points at another resort is not a guaranteed right of the contract.

It is only a function as long as the resort remains as part of BVTC and they do reserve the right to remove any resort.

I agree it is unlikely...but I could see them doing that for the 2042 resorts a few years prior to expiration, especially HH and VB.

 

[Skyborndancer]

Not really, If a home resort is removed from BVTC, then you no longer have the right to trade.

While it may not be likely, it is a reality of the contract. Just like you keep mentioning there is no promise of those buying direct, including RIV are guaranteed to be used at future resorts, owners are not guaranteed the right to trade to other O14 if it is removed from the club.

This may sound mean, but I don't actually intend to be argumentative...

I'm just curious, do the contracts have any "right to trade points if you bought direct" written in? Or can disney theoretically change that too? I recall for example, the direct membership bluecard benefits are repeatedly mentioned as not guaranteed, and you are agreeing to not to buy for those benefits in mind.

(PS. sorry to OP for highjacking the discussion a bit with this highly theoretical question)

 

[Sandisw]

This may sound mean, but I don't actually intend to be argumentative...

I'm just curious, do the contracts have any "right to trade points if you bought direct" written in? Or can disney theoretically change that too? I recall for example, the direct membership bluecard benefits are repeatedly mentioned as not guaranteed, and you are agreeing to not to buy for those benefits in mind.

(PS. sorry to OP for highjacking the discussion a bit with this highly theoretical question)

Yes. If any DVC resort was removed from BVTC, then it would no longer have rights to trade into the other DVC resorts. It would not matter If points are direct or resale.

The guarantee is only home resort I do think the chances are slim that it would happen, but I also think it is important to understand how we get to trade. We convert home resort points into DVC vacation points that trade

It is why it wouldn’t matter the type of points because if a resort isn’t part of the club, then no owner would be given the right.

As I mentioned, I could see them removing some of the 2042 resorts a few years before they expire.

 

[Skyborndancer]

Yes. If any DVC resort was removed from BVTC, then it would no longer have rights to trade into the other DVC resorts. It would not matter If points are direct or resale.

The guarantee is only home resort I do think the chances are slim that it would happen, but I also think it is important to understand how we get to trade. We convert home resort points into DVC vacation points that trade

Very helpful. Thanks Sandisw

 

[RoseGold]

I'm just curious, do the contracts have any "right to trade points if you bought direct" written in? Or can disney theoretically change that too? I recall for example, the direct membership bluecard benefits are repeatedly mentioned as not guaranteed, and you are agreeing to not to buy for those benefits in mind.

Yes, for O14. That's why RIV making itself special DVC2 points was such a big deal. Disney could always completely remove resorts from the system, or shut them down (like VGC right now), but they can't make the O14 RIV style. All of that is new in the RIV contracts.

So, it's not like you were "guaranteed" to be able to use your points at Vero Beach, as Disney could always sell it off or just close it, but they can't make RIV style restrictions, like your SSR points not working there or make its resale a third class or something.

 

[sethschroeder]

Yes, for O14. That's why RIV making itself special DVC2 points was such a big deal. Disney could always completely remove resorts from the system, or shut them down (like VGC right now), but they can't make the O14 RIV style. All of that is new in the RIV contracts.

So, it's not like you were "guaranteed" to be able to use your points at Vero Beach, as Disney could always sell it off or just close it, but they can't make RIV style restrictions, like your SSR points not working there or make its resale a third class or something.

There is thought though they could change the point exchange system though. So that using SSR points at VGF as an example would come at a point premium.

I haven't looked in to it too much but it has been brought up. If true I would say its more likely than removing a resort from the system. I am not sure it would really ever be used though.

 

[RoseGold]

There is thought though they could change the point exchange system though. So that using SSR points at VGF as an example would come at a point premium.

I have no idea where that came from. The O14 rooms (including VGF & SSR) all have a set number of points per year, which have defined rules. Just look at the dust up over the lock off premium. I don't see any authority to charge extra point premium from O14 contracts.

I can definitely see this happening in future resorts/contracts, and consider it likely and on brand for recent DVC operation.

 

[sethschroeder]

I have no idea where that came from. The O14 rooms (including VGF & SSR) all have a set number of points per year, which have defined rules. Just look at the dust up over the lock off premium. I don't see any authority to charge extra point premium from O14 contracts.

I can definitely see this happening in future resorts/contracts, and consider it likely and on brand for recent DVC operation.

I think it comes from how the rules are written.

All point charts are outlined as "Home Resort Vacation Points Chart". When you go to book a resort though you trade in your "Home Resort Vacation Points" for "DVC Vacation Points" which allow you to book at 7 months (which this timing can also change).

From what I have come across it is not defined that when you trade in your Home Resort Points you need to get the same number of points. Its also not defined that Home Resort Charts need to be the same for DVC Vacation Points.

Others have brought it up before.

Yes its not the same as resale restrictions but just an example how one could get limited to having access to specific resorts possibly. I have zero clue if it would ever happen.

 

[CarolynFH]

I have no idea where that came from. The O14 rooms (including VGF & SSR) all have a set number of points per year, which have defined rules. Just look at the dust up over the lock off premium. I don't see any authority to charge extra point premium from O14 contracts.

I can definitely see this happening in future resorts/contracts, and consider it likely and on brand for recent DVC operation.

I think it comes from how the rules are written.

All point charts are outlined as "Home Resort Vacation Points Chart". When you go to book a resort though you trade in your "Home Resort Vacation Points" for "DVC Vacation Points" which allow you to book at 7 months (which this timing can also change).

From what I have come across it is not defined that when you trade in your Home Resort Points you need to get the same number of points. Its also not defined that Home Resort Charts need to be the same for DVC Vacation Points.

Others have brought it up before.

Yes its not the same as resale restrictions but just an example how one could get limited to having access to specific resorts possibly. I have zero clue if it would ever happen.

Seth is correct. BVTC could establish separate and distinct points charts for non-home resort owners. For instance, a BWV villa that cost a BWV owner 15 points a night might cost an SSR owner 20 points per night. That provision was in the contracts or rules when we bought 23 years ago and has just never been implemented.

 

[sethschroeder]

Seth is correct. BVTC could establish separate and distinct points charts for non-home resort owners. For instance, a BWV villa that cost a BWV owner 15 points a night might cost an SSR owner 20 points per night. That provision was in the contracts or rules when we bought 23 years ago and has just never been implemented.

Do you know by chance then would it be a reverse for the BWV owner? So BWV gets a "discount" by staying at SSR at the same percentage (so for your example a 25% discount roughly?

 

[CarolynFH]

Do you know by chance then would it be a reverse for the BWV owner? So BWV gets a "discount" by staying at SSR at the same percentage (so for your example a 25% discount roughly?

I don’t think the rules say that specifically, only that the points charts for someone trading in to a non-home resort could be different from the points charts for an owner booking their home resort. I’ve never thought about them being cheaper for non-owners, but I can imagine there would be serious protests if that were the case!

 

[RoseGold]

Seth is correct. BVTC could establish separate and distinct points charts for non-home resort owners. For instance, a BWV villa that cost a BWV owner 15 points a night might cost an SSR owner 20 points per night. That provision was in the contracts or rules when we bought 23 years ago and has just never been implemented.

I just dug through all my SSR documentation and don't see anything in there about sliding around the points for specific resorts. I guess BWV could bump up the non-Home points and effectively create backwards RIV-style restrictions for everyone who isn't an owner at that resort. But that would penalize anyone who isn't a home resort owner, not just SSR cheap seats. It would be any non-BWV. And it wouldn't distinguish resale buyers -- except however those contracts penalize them, wouldn't surprise me if RIV has even more surprises in there.

That would be counter to 30 years of marketing; no way that gets implemented for O14.

I absolutely can see this neat trick for Reflections. Slap 5-10% on it to stay there for non-owners, free money! Shave 5-10% on it to not stay there when it's your home, more free money! Get 'em coming and going! As a shareholder, love it!

 

[CarolynFH]

I just dug through all my SSR documentation and don't see anything in there about sliding around the points for specific resorts. I guess BWV could bump up the non-Home points and effectively create backwards RIV-style restrictions for everyone who isn't an owner at that resort. But that would penalize anyone who isn't a home resort owner, not just SSR cheap seats. It would be any non-BWV. And it wouldn't distinguish resale buyers -- except however those contracts penalize them, wouldn't surprise me if RIV has even more surprises in there.

That would be counter to 30 years of marketing; no way that gets implemented for O14.

I absolutely can see this neat trick for Reflections. Slap 5-10% on it to stay there for non-owners, free money! Shave 5-10% on it to not stay there when it's your home, more free money! Get 'em coming and going! As a shareholder, love it!

This isn’t a provision in the deeds, it’s in the rules that govern operations of BVTC (Buena Vista Trading Company), which is the entity that we DVC owners actually use without realizing it when we trade out of our home resort and into a non-home DVC resort. I think @drusba might know which document - I don’t, sorry. And I don’t think they’d “discount” resorts, that was @sethschroeder ’s idea! But they could make it more expensive for a DVC owner to trade into VGF, for instance, to decrease the 7-month competition for non-home bookings there. Just another way to manipulate demand vs. supply at the 7-month window.

 

[RoseGold]

And I don’t think they’d “discount” resorts, that was @sethschroeder ’s idea! But they could make it more expensive for a DVC owner to trade into VGF, for instance, to decrease the 7-month competition for non-home bookings there. Just another way to manipulate demand vs. supply at the 7-month window

Right, but I'm saying I don't see any way to single out SSR points (or O14 resale points). There are only home and non-home points.

 

[sethschroeder]

Right, but I'm saying I don't see any way to single out SSR points (or O14 resale points). There are only home and non-home points.

Correct but lets be real here SSR, AKV, OKW and to a lesser extend POLY (recently) are being bought to stay at other resorts. If you had to pay a 10% upcharge on your points or a 20% upcharge on your points across the board people might start buying in to the resorts that have that specific upcharge.

Sorry if I made it sounds like it would just be SSR points. Its all points but those resorts where people purchase just for SAP would more greatly be impacted as far as resales goes and value of your current contracts for your own usage.

EDIT: Before people yell at me I know some people love those resorts mentioned. I just call them out as they are the ones that get tossed around a lot of times regarding SAP.

 

[CarolynFH]

Right, but I'm saying I don't see any way to single out SSR points (or O14 resale points). There are only home and non-home points.

Exactly. I was just using BWV and SSR as examples for how it might work. Guess I should have said BWV owner and non-BWV owner.

 

[CastAStone]

Correct but lets be real here SSR, AKV, OKW and to a lesser extend POLY (recently) are being bought to stay at other resorts. If you had to pay a 10% upcharge on your points or a 20% upcharge on your points across the board people might start buying in to the resorts that have that specific upcharge.

Sorry if I made it sounds like it would just be SSR points. Its all points but those resorts where people purchase just for SAP would more greatly be impacted as far as resales goes and value of your current contracts for your own usage.

EDIT: Before people yell at me I know some people love those resorts mentioned. I just call them out as they are the ones that get tossed around a lot of times regarding SAP.

If you’re buying AKV for Sleep Around Points you’re doing it wrong, in every sense. Far too expensive for that.

 

[TexasTom]

If you’re buying AKV for Sleep Around Points you’re doing it wrong, in every sense. Far too expensive for that.

Which resort(s) would you purchase for SAP?