Question about 9th grade course selection

[MrsPete]

As a high school teacher, I can tell you that the problem is probably that too many parents believe their kids should be in advanced courses, but they shouldn't, so the advanced courses are getting academically diluted to accommodate a bunch of kids that just shouldn't be there.

As another high school teacher, I'll back you up on this one. It's tough to place kids in 9th grade classes because they (and their parents) don't yet have a grasp of whether they belong in high school general or honors classes. When I work at Open House night, the ONLY question people ever ask us is, "Should my child take English 1 or Honors English 1?" LOTS of kids end up in the wrong place in 9th grade.

I'll throw out some general advice, but you'll have to figure out for yourself where your child belongs:

9th grade classes matter more towards college admission than do 12th grade classes. If you're saying, "What?", think about this: Your child will apply to college at the beginning of his senior year. He will be showing the prospective schools his 9th, 10th, and 11th grade grades . . . but he will not yet have earned those 12th grade scores. Oh, they'll want to see them at the end of the year -- but that's just to make sure he actually completed the courses he set out to take; grades earned in 12th grade will not help him towards admission one bit.

Is your child serious about school? Does he read on his own for fun? Does he always complete his assignments? Does he write well with good organization, good punctuation, and an expressive voice? Does he show good organization skills? Do you think 4 years from now he'll be seeking admission to the more competative universities? If you can honestly say "yes" to each of these, then he should be taking honors classes. If you say "no" to a couple of these, he should be the bright spot in the general class.

The general vs. honors decision should be made on a course by course basis; for example, my youngest will soar straight into Honors English . . . but she'll be taking general math.

When you sign up for an honors course, it's a one-year decision. If you choose Honors English 1, and your child is overly stressed, you can drop back to general for English 2. If you choose general Algebra 1, and your child breezes through it, you have the option to sign up for honors math next year.

What grades is your child earning in middle school? If the child is making As in 8th grade English, sign him up for Honors English 1. If he's making less than an A, start off with general.

I hear some parents making the honors vs. general decision based upon friends who'll be in the classes. I've heard it go both ways: I've heard some say, "My kid doesn't like the other students in the honors classes; they're rich and snobby." I've heard others say, "My kid struggles academically in honors, but he doesn't fit in socially with the hoodlums in the general classes." This is all a load of bunk; it's an overgeneralization. I was a poor kid in honors classes. I see lots of kids who don't fit these stereotypes. Class placement should be based upon one thing: Where can the student be most successful?

Finally, it IS absolutely true that the most competative universities want to see that the student took the most difficult courses available at his school. If AP Science is available and the student took honors, the top-top colleges will look at that with a jaudiced eye. BUT this is only true for those kids who are really in the top-top portion of their graduating class and who are going to the schools with really tough admissions.

Okay, I said finally, but I thought of something else: Universities don't expect students to take EVERY advanced class out there -- they just expect to see SOME on the schedule. So, for example, if your child is probably heading towards being an engineer or a chemist, he should be in the highest possible level of math and science class . . . but if he's taking those, and he's taking general English, no one's going to think badly of that. On the other hand, the student who plans to major in Journalism had better be in AP English (and creative writing too), but he can expect to be admitted to college without having had AP-level Physics.

 

[MrsPete]

And one last non-academic thought: Don't push academics so much that it becomes the whole world for the student. College want to see students earn top grades, of course, but they also want to see that the student took advantage of extra-curriculars and ESPECIALLY leadership positions.

I had a student last year who had a great transcript. She made straight As all four years in high school, and she took a good number of honors (but not AP) courses. She seemed to have everything going for her academically . . . but she took part in no clubs at school or in the community. She had no evidence of leadership ability. She had worked a good bit in high school, but colleges don't care about that. She was rejected at the school of her choice and won no scholarships. Being well-rounded DOES matter!

 

[EthansMom]

Okay, I said finally, but I thought of something else: Universities don't expect students to take EVERY advanced class out there -- they just expect to see SOME on the schedule. So, for example, if your child is probably heading towards being an engineer or a chemist, he should be in the highest possible level of math and science class . . . but if he's taking those, and he's taking general English, no one's going to think badly of that. On the other hand, the student who plans to major in Journalism had better be in AP English (and creative writing too), but he can expect to be admitted to college without having had AP-level Physics.

I'll agree with this advice!

Back when I was in high school, the kids who took AP classes tended to take as many of the available AP courses that fit their schedule as possible. When I went on to college, I found that having taken AP History, while educational, did nothing to help me get a BS in Engineering and had only added to my high school work load.

When the time comes, I'll be advising my kids to take the honors/advanced/AP courses that match their interests and abilities rather than taking every advanced class that is available.

 

[HugsForEeyore]

At my local high school, honors and AP aren't good enough. It's all about "IB" - International Bacculaurate (sp). IB is everywhere, and it's all that matters. The kid and parents get the message LOUD and CLEAR that your kid is destined to flip burgers if you're not "IB". So every kid feels they have to do IB, and I swear our high school finds a way to mention the IB program in every newspaper article or webpage they have. So "honors" is nothing special here - we have all these course designations like Pre-IB, or AP-IB, or Honors IB.

All the 8th graders I know are already trying to plan their IB lives, and make sure all their freshmen classes all match the IB track.

IB, IB, IB is all that matters!

 

[LVSWL]

As a high school teacher, I can tell you that the problem is probably that too many parents believe their kids should be in advanced courses, but they shouldn't, so the advanced courses are getting academically diluted to accommodate a bunch of kids that just shouldn't be there. At our school, half of the 9th grade English classes were "advanced," when it should probably have been no more than 20 or 25%. At the other end, then, the "regular" courses were disproportionately filled with struggling students, which brings the academic expectations of the entire class down. It's a vicious cycle. If more of the average performing kids were in the regular classes, they would raise the academic expectations of the class and everyone would be the better for it. Moreover, the advanced vs. regular track tends to actually be a socioeconomic/racial track in which well-off white kids enroll in the advanced classes (whether they should be there or not) and the less well-off and minority kids (whose parents tend less to be helicopter parents) end up disproportionately enrolled in the regular classes, and then those classes get labeled as "blow-off" classes. That's why our school has done away with advanced English classes in 9th grade — everyone gets randomly assigned to a class which will operate with ordinary 9th grade standards. And boy oh boy did the well-off parents pitch a fit over that!

However, if you believe your daughter is genuinely advanced academically, enroll her in as many advanced courses as you want to.

Well, I guess that I can count myself lucky that my child does not go to your school where the opportunity to take advanced English in 9th grade would have been taken away from him. Sounds like more dumbing down of the system to me. I would definitely been one of those parents,(not well-off) pitching a fit.

 

[PrincessKsMom]

At my local high school, honors and AP aren't good enough. It's all about "IB" - International Bacculaurate (sp). IB is everywhere, and it's all that matters. The kid and parents get the message LOUD and CLEAR that your kid is destined to flip burgers if you're not "IB". So every kid feels they have to do IB, and I swear our high school finds a way to mention the IB program in every newspaper article or webpage they have. So "honors" is nothing special here - we have all these course designations like Pre-IB, or AP-IB, or Honors IB.

All the 8th graders I know are already trying to plan their IB lives, and make sure all their freshmen classes all match the IB track.

IB, IB, IB is all that matters!

My DD is in 7th grade and we went to look at a high school that stressed IB. However, after having done some research, IB means nothing to most colleges in the US. It's only a must if your child is interested in going to school overseas, going into politics, etc. This school made it sound like the end all, be all, and it's really not. I also asked around in work (NYC law firm which only accepts attorneys from Top 5-10 law schools/colleges) and they agree. No one had really even heard of IB and many of them have children in snooty/rich schools, i.e., $30-$40k a year for grammar school. I'm not trying to say IB is bad, but it's simply not going to mean so much for college acceptance.

 

[Pin Wizard]

I'll agree with this advice!

Back when I was in high school, the kids who took AP classes tended to take as many of the available AP courses that fit their schedule as possible. When I went on to college, I found that having taken AP History, while educational, did nothing to help me get a BS in Engineering and had only added to my high school work load.

When the time comes, I'll be advising my kids to take the honors/advanced/AP courses that match their interests and abilities rather than taking every advanced class that is available.

I'll keep this in mind. DS is still interested in Architecture. And the two top VA schools for it are UVA and Virginia Tech. I was reading on other boards of kids applying to UVA and for scholarships with 4.5 GPAs.

 

[HugsForEeyore]

My DD is in 7th grade and we went to look at a high school that stressed IB. However, after having done some research, IB means nothing to most colleges in the US. It's only a must if your child is interested in going to school overseas, going into politics, etc. This school made it sound like the end all, be all, and it's really not. I also asked around in work (NYC law firm which only accepts attorneys from Top 5-10 law schools/colleges) and they agree. No one had really even heard of IB and many of them have children in snooty/rich schools, i.e., $30-$40k a year for grammar school. I'm not trying to say IB is bad, but it's simply not going to mean so much for college acceptance.

Thank you!! That's my impression, too! It's nuts how it's so overplayed and advertised. I never heard of it until a few years ago when the high school adopted it, and now the kids are all told it's all that matters. The kids truly believe they will never get into the "best colleges" without IB. Every kid has to be "the best" in everything and the best is to be IB, they all believe. I see you like in New Jersey - maybe a regional thing!

I also live in an affulent area, where the parents expect their kids to be in only the best classes, so IB plays into the elitism of it all.

 

[golfgal]

Not in our HS! They SHOVE AP down our throats, they want to keep their ranking in the Newsweek top 100 schools. They tried to force DS in AP choice in 9th grade based on his scores. I know DS better than they do, so he "settled" on Honors classes in English, Science, and History.

Now DD is in 8th grade and scores very high on FCAT. She was invited to AP choice or IB at another school. I actually think she will "just" do honors, much to the HS horror. AP choice is just 2 honors classes in 9th grade but they have SO much homework, you have no life at all. She has 3 extra-curricular activities now, and she will surely want to do something in HS too. She can then take some AP classes her JR and SR year, when they count. I don't want her to feel like she is in prison starting out in HS.

Of course all of DD's friends are trying to pressure her into AP choice, they have NO idea what they are in for (they don't have older siblings!). Honors will be fine for DD. I would rather she get A's in honors than B's in AP choice with no life.

I don't blame you, that Newsweek top 100 is a joke. It only ranks on HOW MANY kids take at least one AP test--they don't even have to pass the dang thing, just TAKE the test and they get ranked--that really tells you a lot about the school.

again, my comments are anecdotal.

I would be concerned about AP courses at too early of a level. I believe at my DD's high school, that you cannot take the AP exams for AP courses until they are a Junior. So - anyone who does take an AP course in 9th or 10th grade cannot take the test and get their college credits.

Our school works like this as well. In 9th grade you can take Honors or Regular (or special ed if need be). In 10th grade you can be invited to take AP but you have to be spectacular and no parents can just sign a child up for AP classes. In 11th and 12th grade anyone can take AP as long as they maintain a C or better in the class.

Our honors is by invitation then the kids have to write an essay and get teacher approval.

At my local high school, honors and AP aren't good enough. It's all about "IB" - International Bacculaurate (sp). IB is everywhere, and it's all that matters. The kid and parents get the message LOUD and CLEAR that your kid is destined to flip burgers if you're not "IB". So every kid feels they have to do IB, and I swear our high school finds a way to mention the IB program in every newspaper article or webpage they have. So "honors" is nothing special here - we have all these course designations like Pre-IB, or AP-IB, or Honors IB.

All the 8th graders I know are already trying to plan their IB lives, and make sure all their freshmen classes all match the IB track.

IB, IB, IB is all that matters!

The only schools around here that even offer IB programs are the inner city schools. They have about 45 kids in Minneapolis that take IB courses (out of 10,000 or so). Then the Minneapolis schools all make that Newsweek top 100 because they are only rated on the number of kids in the IB program that take the IB test--yes, 45 kids out of 10,000 (well 26,000 if you count district wide) are really a representative sampling of your student population--which graduates about 34% of it's students annually-but it is "ranked" higher then our district that graduates 99% of our seniors, 96% of whom go on to 4 year colleges.

 

[BibbidiBobbidiBOO]

Thank you!! That's my impression, too! It's nuts how it's so overplayed and advertised. I never heard of it until a few years ago when the high school adopted it, and now the kids are all told it's all that matters. The kids truly believe they will never get into the "best colleges" without IB. Every kid has to be "the best" in everything and the best is to be IB, they all believe. I see you like in New Jersey - maybe a regional thing!

I also live in an affulent area, where the parents expect their kids to be in only the best classes, so IB plays into the elitism of it all.

That is how "AP choice" is at our HS and IB is at the school across town that offers it. IB is not in our zone and not a "good school", so IB is not as overblown as "AP choice" and AP. I know parents who are forcing their kids into "choice" and I know these kids have no business being in it. They only require a 84% fcat to be invited. Many kids have to drop out and change schedules mid year when the demands are too much.

The HS had almost a "pep rally" type meeting for it last week for those invited. I left about 5 mins early with DD to avoid the peer pressure of the signing up. I wanted her to decide for herself. I was told one girl was crying as her parents forced her into it. These parents were not told all the facts about "choice" and don't realize the kids can take AP classes without it. The school wants the ranking and the funding that this program brings, and I think they deceive the parents.

 

[Becky2005]

Perhaps instead of encouraging their social lives, they're trying to make sure that the students know how much more work is involved in an honors levels class. It seems to me that starting out with one or two in ninth grade and making sure the student can handle the extra work is better than having them stressed out and unable to handle the coursework from 3 or 4 honors classes their first year of high school. Perhaps it is to acclimate them to the extra work in the beginning so they're not burnt out by 10th grade?

I agree with this. I know ours discouraged it too. They want the kids to have a successful transition to High School. They tell you if your 8th grade teachers recommend all honors, pick the one your child is best in, take just that one class Freshman year. They would much rather see the child get a good class ranking/GPA Freshman year than get overwhelmed and get bad grades in all the classes pulling them down.

It made sense to me when they explained it because the workload is definitely different with high school than it was before.

 

[BibbidiBobbidiBOO]

I don't blame you, that Newsweek top 100 is a joke. It only ranks on HOW MANY kids take at least one AP test--they don't even have to pass the dang thing, just TAKE the test and they get ranked--that really tells you a lot about the school.

Exactly!

 

[Debbie7452]

Our school chanted the don't overload yourself with too many AP classes mantra until my daughter started to doubt herself and freak out about her strong schedule. I convinced her to forge ahead and give it a try(meanest Mom in the world).

The first semester there was much wailing and knashing of teeth...complain complain complain, BUT...she was really doing fine grade-wise. I finally told her to change her schedule for the second semester if she wanted...she opted to stay in the AP classes!

You know your kid better than they do...so factor in their extra-curricular activities and academic motivation and decide for yourselves what to do.

Good Luck! I have a Junior and a Freshman (and a 5th grader and a 2 year old, LOL!). The first one is always hardest!

 

[DVC Sadie]

One thing you may want to consider - and for us this is a strictly anecdotal comment from our dentist...whose daughter is going through the college and scholarship application process. He is of the opinion that "strength of schedule" is far more important than GPA in the college acceptance phase.

So - maybe you could talk to the guidance counselors at the high school and pick their brains a little bit. Talk, talk, talk to other people going through the college admissions process.

I have to agree with your dentist. I saw that first hand when my DS applied several years ago.

 

[PrincessKsMom]

Thank you!! That's my impression, too! It's nuts how it's so overplayed and advertised. I never heard of it until a few years ago when the high school adopted it, and now the kids are all told it's all that matters. The kids truly believe they will never get into the "best colleges" without IB. Every kid has to be "the best" in everything and the best is to be IB, they all believe. I see you like in New Jersey - maybe a regional thing!

I also live in an affulent area, where the parents expect their kids to be in only the best classes, so IB plays into the elitism of it all.

Here's a good article I found on the American Foreign Services Association re: IB degrees:

http://www.afsa.org/fsj/Dec99/boyd.cfm