PVSA Ruling

[luv2sleep]

Is there a number of miles away from the beginning or terminal port that makes something qualify as a distant foreign port? How is "distant" defined?

 

[DahliaRW]

Is there a number of miles away from the beginning or terminal port that makes something qualify as a distant foreign port? How is "distant" defined?

Not in North America (including Mexico), Central America or the Caribbean/Bahamas. So south America - distant foreign port. Canada, not. (I believe that Aruba, Bonaire, and Curaçao are the exceptions and do count as a distant foreign port).

 

[PrincessShmoo]

Is there a number of miles away from the beginning or terminal port that makes something qualify as a distant foreign port? How is "distant" defined?

A “nearby foreign port” is defined as "any port in North America, Central America, the Bermuda Islands, or the West Indies (including the Bahama Islands, but not including the Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao)." 19 CFR § 4.80a(a)(2).
http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pvsa_icp_3.pdf

So, any port that is not as specified above is a distant foreign port.

 

[Malefigrunt]

There's a reason why those Hawaiian cruises were making stops in Ensenada ... it was to get around some of the laws.

It's ridiculous that Vancouver isn't considered a foreign port. It's still a different country. I think Disney just doesn't want to fight it, which is a shame.

They weren't getting around the laws; they were complying. The inaugural Hawaiian cruises were round trip from Los Angeles which involves different laws than a one-way cruise from one U.S. port to another.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

There's a reason why those Hawaiian cruises were making stops in Ensenada ... it was to get around some of the laws.

It's ridiculous that Vancouver isn't considered a foreign port. It's still a different country. I think Disney just doesn't want to fight it, which is a shame.

I think Vancouver is considered a foreign port. Just not a distant one. Like Ensenada. There are many Alaska cruises that stop at Vancouver or Victoria as their foreign port stop with no problem.

I think that the US official wasn't paying attention to the fact that the original back to back TO BACK cruises being asked about would begin in a foreign port and end in a US port.

Or DCL asked the wrong question - possibly "would a back to back Hawaii/Vancouver cruise and Vancouver/San Diego cruise be allowed?" instead of "would the 3 cruises Vancouver/Hawaii; Hawaii/Vancouver; Vancouver/San Diego be allowed?"

I realize DCL is on a steep learning curve right now, but I wish they'd get all their ducks in a row. There are many cruiselines that have worked out all these issues with the PVSA in the past. Heaven forbid they should get some input from any of them.

 

[luv2sleep]

Ah. Got it.

 

[dmunsil]

My understanding is that the Customs treatment of multi-segment trips is that the entire trip cannot violate the PVSA, and no sub-segment or contiguous combination of sub-segments can violate the PVSA.

So if you have a trip with segments A, B, and C, each of which are compliant, and ABC (treated as one trip) is compliant, it still may be a problem if AB or BC aren't compliant, which is the case here.

 

[cgolf]

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[NancyIL]

As information, I had booked the Wonder from Vancouver to Honolulu, then back to Vancouver, then to San Diego thinking this met all the provisions of the PVSA act of 1886. Disney booked the cruise, also thinking it met all the requirements. But they contacted Customs which ruled it was an illegal cruise in violation of PVSA. I read the act and it does not violate it. But I guess better to find out now then to be denied boarding. I had to cancel the Vancouver to San Diego portion of the trip!

You can book Vancover to Honolulu to Vancouver to San Diego, as that's a Vancouver to San Diego sailing in the eyes of the PVSA. What you can't do is book Honolulu to Vancouver to San Diego, as that's a Honolulu to San Diego sailing. Now DCL is going overboard the other direction to say you can't book this!

 

[DahliaRW]

We need someone with deep pockets to sue the Government over this one, it is a joke. You should be able to travel as you wish as long as you are a citizen in good standing. Different trips, who cares if it is the same ship, that is a bummer. Ultimately what is the point of the rule anyways, is it supposed to prevent something?

cgolf

It's an old law that was supposed to protect US shipping interests/ships and US jobs. But the result in the cruise industry is that everyone just does cruises that avoid the issue. There is ONE US flagged cruise ship.

It also does protect smaller ferry type routes, though there are exceptions made for Canadian run ferries up in Alaska, which makes sense.

 

[mmouse37]

My understanding is that the Customs treatment of multi-segment trips is that the entire trip cannot violate the PVSA, and no sub-segment or contiguous combination of sub-segments can violate the PVSA.

So if you have a trip with segments A, B, and C, each of which are compliant, and ABC (treated as one trip) is compliant, it still may be a problem if AB or BC aren't compliant, which is the case here.

This makes sense.

MJ

 

[mocodis]

we currently have the B2B, Hawaii to Vancouver to San Diego. I understand not allowed. Just talked with a supervisor. I thought the B2B2B would be legal. Vancouver to Hawaii to Vancouver to San Diego, it starts in Vancouver and ends in San Diego. DCL Supervisor told me cannot do it. I do not understand why. it starts in a foreign port and ends in a US port.

 

[luv2sleep]

we currently have the B2B, Hawaii to Vancouver to San Diego. I understand not allowed. Just talked with a supervisor. I thought the B2B2B would be legal. Vancouver to Hawaii to Vancouver to San Diego, it starts in Vancouver and ends in San Diego. DCL Supervisor told me cannot do it. I do not understand why. it starts in a foreign port and ends in a US port.

This was posted earlier to explain she Vancouver wouldn't be considered a distant foreign port:

A “nearby foreign port” is defined as "any port in North America, Central America, the Bermuda Islands, or the West Indies (including the Bahama Islands, but not including the Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao)." 19 CFR § 4.80a(a)(2).

http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pvsa_icp_3.pdf So, any port that is not as specified above is a distant foreign port.

 

[MakiraMarlena]

this post explains why it is not legal. Italics mine

My understanding is that the Customs treatment of multi-segment trips is that the entire trip cannot violate the PVSA, and no sub-segment or contiguous combination of sub-segments can violate the PVSA.So if you have a trip with segments A, B, and C, each of which are compliant, and ABC (treated as one trip) is compliant, it still may be a problem if AB or BC aren't compliant, which is the case here.

 

[NancyIL]

This was posted earlier to explain she Vancouver wouldn't be considered a distant foreign port:

A sailing between Vancouver and San Diego doesn't require any foreign ports. I think DCL is being overly cautious, because what matters is where you embark and where you permanently disembark. I don't agree that if any 2 segments of a b2b2b violate the PVSA - then the whole violates the PVSA. I'd like to see that in writing.

 

[ilovetexas]

A sailing between Vancouver and San Diego doesn't require any foreign ports. I think DCL is being overly cautious, because what matters is where you embark and where you permanently disembark. I don't agree that if any 2 segments of a b2b2b violate the PVSA - then the whole violates the PVSA. I'd like to see that in writing.

I agree with you. If Vancouver to San Diego violated the PVSA (regardless of what was between the two), the entire Alaska season would have to be scrapped for most lines. Most typically sail between Vancouver and Anchorage, which is no different than Vancouver to San Diego for the purposes of this discussion.

 

[luv2sleep]

A sailing between Vancouver and San Diego doesn't require any foreign ports. I think DCL is being overly cautious, because what matters is where you embark and where you permanently disembark. I don't agree that if any 2 segments of a b2b2b violate the PVSA - then the whole violates the PVSA. I'd like to see that in writing.

Oh well then I'm confused by all that has been written here about this.

 

[KalamityJane]

I agree with you. If Vancouver to San Diego violated the PVSA (regardless of what was between the two), the entire Alaska season would have to be scrapped for most lines. Most typically sail between Vancouver and Anchorage, which is no different than Vancouver to San Diego for the purposes of this discussion.

It's not the Vancouver to San Diego part that is the problem. It is the Hawaii to San Diego. It only applies to the beginning and ending ports and not the in between stops. Disney (from what I understand) only cruises from Vancouver round trip to Alaska, correct? So it's not starting in a US port.

The PVSA essentially says - No foreign vessels shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 (now $300) for each passenger so transported and landed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886

So Vanc to SD is fine, (not US to US) Hawaii to Vanc (not US to US) is fine but Hawaii to SD is not fine because they are both US ports. That's likely why Disney is based out of Vancouver for the Alaska cruises.

 

[cgolf]

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[NancyIL]

Oh well then I'm confused by all that has been written here about this.

To sail between a US port and a foreign port (Hawaii - Vancouver or San Diego - Vancouver) - you don't need to stop at a foreign port.

To sail from one US port to the same US port (i.e., closed loop cruise) - you just need to stop at any foreign port - unless it's a cruise to nowhere. The roundtrop cruise from LA to Hawaii with a foreign port stop in Ensenada, Mexico is an example.

To sail from one US port to a different US port, you need to stop at a distant foreign port. Panama Canal cruises qualify because they stop in Cartagena, Colombia (South America) or one of the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao).

The OP wants to embark in Vancouver and ultimately disembark in San Diego after a b2b2b. DCL is saying the OP can't do that, as it violates the PVSA. I downloaded this pdf from U.S Customs and Border Protection, and see nothing to indicate that the b2b2b beginning in Vancouver and ending in San Diego would violate the PVSA: http://www.cbp.gov/document/publications/passenger-vessel-services-act