PSA, If you cannot drive in the snow and don't have to go out.............

[blanq]

I live in MN, and have driven in harsh winters for 30 years. Guess what? Sometimes, no matter how slow you go, how much distance you keep between you and other cars, and how adept you are at handling your vehicle, the snow (or ice) wins. That's just a fact.

 

[karibritt01]

Problem here in NC is the people who "know how to drive in snow." Ummm... in NC we don't get snow, we get ice. And because we only get (normally) about 1 storm a year, they do very little in the way of prepping the roads, and only scrape the interstates and major roads. But I agree... if you don't know what you're doing, then don't drive!

 

[Squirlz]

And for the aforementioned "smart" people, it is actually true.

Pssst....

Reagrdless of whether some goofs end up in ditches, 4wd definitely can help you steer better.

Please offer your explanations of how a driven versus a non-driven tire will make a vehicle change directions quicker.

Pssst...you're not going to be able to.

 

[bicker]

I guess you're going to have to get yourself a 4WD so you can come to understand what we who have one already know.

 

[Squirlz]

I guess you're going to have to get yourself a 4WD so you can come to understand what we who have one already know.

I have had an all wheel drive car for about 20 years. I'm really curious as to why people believe this fallacy. Is it just the hype from commercials? Do they know something about vehicle systems and dynamics that I don't know? That part is doubtful

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I read a study a few years ago that suggested that 4WD vehicles were actually in more accidents in bad weather than other vehicles. If that seems odd, consider the reason. The study found that 4WD vehicles were safer to operate in most conditions (ice was the equalizer), but that drivers felt safer in 4WD vehicles, so drove with less care.

The conclusion - 4WD vehicles are only safer if the driver operates the vehicle as cautiously as they would another vehicle.

Personally, I have found FWD vehicles to handle every bit as effectively in the snow as 4WDs...

 

[Shutterbug]

4WD does not help when you are driving on several year old next to bald all season tires. First off all season tires are not really made for the type of heavy snow we have had here. My front wheel drive wheel car with actual dedicated snow tires has had no problems going where it wants to go in the snow.

 

[Squirlz]

I read a study a few years ago that suggested that 4WD vehicles were actually in more accidents in bad weather than other vehicles. If that seems odd, consider the reason. The study found that 4WD vehicles were safer to operate in most conditions (ice was the equalizer), but that drivers felt safer in 4WD vehicles, so drove with less care.

The conclusion - 4WD vehicles are only safer if the driver operates the vehicle as cautiously as they would another vehicle.

Personally, I have found FWD vehicles to handle every bit as effectively in the snow as 4WDs...

Yes, that is what troubles me. People that think 4WD vehicles can somehow defy physics. It saddens me to know how many people have died thinking this because they were led to believe how "safe" SUVs or 4WD is by auto maker hype.

4WD does not help when you are driving on several year old next to bald all season tires. First off all season tires are not really made for the type of heavy snow we have had here. My front wheel drive wheel car with actual dedicated snow tires has had no problems going where it wants to go in the snow.

Exactly. The solution is the proper tire. Whether it has driving force behind it or not is of no consequence.

 

[bicker]

I read a study a few years ago that suggested that 4WD vehicles were actually in more accidents in bad weather than other vehicles.

That's a common Internet myth. Generally, 4WD make good drivers better and bad drivers worse (pretty much any significant driving technology seems to do that), so it evens out to there being no significant difference.

The conclusion - 4WD vehicles are only safer if the driver operates the vehicle as cautiously as they would another vehicle.

Yup: Smart drivers are better drivers with 4WD.

Personally, I have found FWD vehicles to handle every bit as effectively in the snow as 4WDs...

It's simply not the case. However, it should be noted that it takes a while for you to really learn how to use 4WD to your advantage. It isn't like you can step into a Subaru tomorrow and drive it so much better.

 

[luvmy3]

I found some points here relevent to whats being discussed.

http://www.4x4abc.com/jeep101/safe.html


4WD/AWD safety - Is 4WD/AWD safer on snow and ice?


I am assuming that you want 4WD/AWD for safety on snow and ice. 4WD/AWD systems provide some but not much added safety! Only the convenience, that you don't have spinning tires when starting - or the convenience to get started where a 2WD would not be able to get going. Or the convenience to get up a snowy pass without spinning tires or without mounting chains.
However, once moving the physics for all vehicles are equal. 1WD, 2WD, 4WD, 6WD etc.

All motor vehicles need traction for safe steering - 4WD/AWD does not provide extra traction for steering.

All cars need traction for safe braking - 4WD/AWD does not provide extra traction for braking.

In that sense 2WD is "safer" - it leaves you stranded early and keeps you out of trouble. The trouble only 4WD/AWD owners might get into.

The problem is, that most 4WD/AWD owners think they operate a safer system. Once moving (on any slippery stuff) they drive faster than they should and not as carefully and slowly as they would in a 2WD. Much more 4WD vehicles are involved in accidents on snow and ice than 2WD.
Since snow and ice provide only marginal traction (so marginal that you need 4WD/AWD to start moving) and not enough lateral force can be created to support the tires during a turn, they slip sideways and the vehicle falls off the road. 4WD does not prevent that. 4WD is not involved in the steering part of driving.
Since snow and ice provide only marginal traction (so marginal that you need 4WD to start moving) not enough traction is available for safely stopping the car. Neither ABS nor 4WD helps you to stop the car. 4WD is not involved in the braking part of driving at all and ABS only keeps the tires from locking up. Locking or not locking has almost no influence on the stopping distance.
And by the way, when you own a part time 4WD vehicle, ABS does not even work anymore when you shift into 4WD.

Here are the things that help on snow and ice:
4WD to get going
patience
good snow tires
patience
chains are better (even on a 4WD/AWD)
patience
the wisdom to know when slippery is too slippery
patience.

One feature that really adds some safety to driving on snow and ice is ESP. A stability program available on some vehicles that counteracts loss of control. It almost completely eliminates roll overs.


Only chains will make driving on ice and snow significantly safer!

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

That's a common Internet myth...

I tried to find a link to the study, but I couldn't. It was a study, not just an opinion blog on the web. I read it in the paper, but I can't find it. It could have been the NY Times or Newsday. Not sure. It cited statistical evidence.

As I said, and as luvmy3's article suggests, 4WD vehicles are in more accidents in bad weather than 2WD vehicles. The cause sits behind the wheel. I have nothing against 4WD vehicles, but their drivers can be a menace on the roads...

 

[bicker]

Believe what you wish. If you do find the study, I'd be happy to read it.

 

[onelilspark]

I live in the snow belt Last night I was supposed to go to Church, it wasn't snowing that bad for this area, so I decided to go. For the record, I have a 4WD SUV and it does help me handle the snow better... Anyway, I turned around when I was half way there. Not because of the road conditions and my ability to handle them, but because of the way others were driving.

If it's snowing and the roads are snow covered on the highways, there's no need to go faster than 40 mph. I witnessed people in SUVs & Trucks swerving in and out of traffic (I was going with the flow of traffic) going at least 60 mph. The thing is, they might be able to stop easier with 4WD, but the people around them can't, and I think that's what casues accidents. Even with 4WD, if I were going that fast and driving that way and needed to stop suddenly, I would spin out. It's important to be aware of your car's limitations and leave enough room between you and the car in front of you so if you need to stop and start skidding, you have enough room to get your car under control...no matter what kind of car you drive.

 

[Squirlz]

I live in the snow belt Last night I was supposed to go to Church, it wasn't snowing that bad for this area, so I decided to go. For the record, I have a 4WD SUV and it does help me handle the snow better... Anyway, I turned around when I was half way there. Not because of the road conditions and my ability to handle them, but because of the way others were driving.

If it's snowing and the roads are snow covered on the highways, there's no need to go faster than 40 mph. I witnessed people in SUVs & Trucks swerving in and out of traffic (I was going with the flow of traffic) going at least 60 mph. The thing is, they might be able to stop easier with 4WD, but the people around them can't, and I think that's what casues accidents. Even with 4WD, if I were going that fast and driving that way and needed to stop suddenly, I would spin out. It's important to be aware of your car's limitations and leave enough room between you and the car in front of you so if you need to stop and start skidding, you have enough room to get your car under control...no matter what kind of car you drive.

The point that's being made here is that you can not stop easier with 4WD, nor can you steer any better. Many people think they can, but are unable to offer any real facts.

It's good that you did the sensible thing. I wish more people were aware of the limitations of their vehicles.

 

[sbell111]

Very true. Of those I've tried, in the snow, Subaru (Outback, specifically) is the best, but the BMW 4WD system isn't bad. I can't say as many good things about some of the American brands.

My Jeep has the Selec-Trac transfer case: Shift on the fly, choice of 2WD, PT 4WD, FT 4X4 low or high. I've never seen a more capable system.

I read a study a few years ago that suggested that 4WD vehicles were actually in more accidents in bad weather than other vehicles. If that seems odd, consider the reason. The study found that 4WD vehicles were safer to operate in most conditions (ice was the equalizer), but that drivers felt safer in 4WD vehicles, so drove with less care.

I think that you've arrived at an incorrect conclusion.

A few weeks ago, we got half a dozen inches of snow on a bed of ice. As is my habit, I still drove to work. I also drove my family to church and dinner and the movies. As we were out and about, I noticed that almost all of the private vehicles on the road were SUVs. (I saw three vehicles that had gotten out of control; two ditched and one was smashed into a guardrail. All three of these vehicles were cars.)

This morning as I drove to work on dry roads, I noted that the majority of vehicles on the interstate were cars.

The conclusion that this leads me to is that people are more likely to drive SUVs if they go out on snowy days. I therefore hypothesize that a higher percentage of vehicles driving in bad weather are 4WD. Therefore, the very fact that more 4WDs have accidents on bad weather is a likely a result of a much greater percentage of 4WDs being on the road during this weather, not a testiment for or against the capability of these vehicles.

The conclusion - 4WD vehicles are only safer if the driver operates the vehicle as cautiously as they would another vehicle.

No one has made any statement contrary to this.

Personally, I have found FWD vehicles to handle every bit as effectively in the snow as 4WDs...

Really? I can drive through nine inches of snow. More if it's packed.

I found some points here relevent to whats being discussed.

http://www.4x4abc.com/jeep101/safe.html


4WD/AWD safety - Is 4WD/AWD safer on snow and ice?


I am assuming that you want 4WD/AWD for safety on snow and ice. 4WD/AWD systems provide some but not much added safety! Only the convenience, that you don't have spinning tires when starting - or the convenience to get started where a 2WD would not be able to get going. Or the convenience to get up a snowy pass without spinning tires or without mounting chains.
However, once moving the physics for all vehicles are equal. 1WD, 2WD, 4WD, 6WD etc.

All motor vehicles need traction for safe steering - 4WD/AWD does not provide extra traction for steering.

All cars need traction for safe braking - 4WD/AWD does not provide extra traction for braking.

In that sense 2WD is "safer" - it leaves you stranded early and keeps you out of trouble. The trouble only 4WD/AWD owners might get into.

The problem is, that most 4WD/AWD owners think they operate a safer system. Once moving (on any slippery stuff) they drive faster than they should and not as carefully and slowly as they would in a 2WD. Much more 4WD vehicles are involved in accidents on snow and ice than 2WD.
Since snow and ice provide only marginal traction (so marginal that you need 4WD/AWD to start moving) and not enough lateral force can be created to support the tires during a turn, they slip sideways and the vehicle falls off the road. 4WD does not prevent that. 4WD is not involved in the steering part of driving.
Since snow and ice provide only marginal traction (so marginal that you need 4WD to start moving) not enough traction is available for safely stopping the car. Neither ABS nor 4WD helps you to stop the car. 4WD is not involved in the braking part of driving at all and ABS only keeps the tires from locking up. Locking or not locking has almost no influence on the stopping distance.

Your entire argument is based on the premise that 'perfect' ice is being driven upon (so marginal that you need 4WD to start moving) and that 4WD drivers always drive too fast.

The simple fact is this: When I reasonable drive my Jeep in the ice and snow, I maintain control and my wheels never spin. They don't spin or slide when going around a corner, even if it is downhill. They don't spin when going uphill, even when making a sharp turn at the top of a steep hill. Most 2WD vehicles cannot accomplish this.

My 4X4 also has the ability to 'creep'. I can put the vehicle into 4WD low and slowly decend or ascend that icy hill that a 2WD car cannot hope to travel.

And by the way, when you own a part time 4WD vehicle, ABS does not even work anymore when you shift into 4WD.

This is simply untrue.

If I mash my brakes on a slippy surface, I can feel the ABS working. This is true whether I am in 2WD, PT 4WD, FT 4WD low, or FT 4WD high. (I've never tried it with the transfer case in neutral, but I have no reason to believe that teh ABS wouldn't work then also.) You see, the ABS system has no way of knowing whether the transfer case is in 4WD. It's only job is to stop the wheels from locking up. It could care less if that wheel is currently a 'drive' wheel, or not.

Only chains will make driving on ice and snow significantly safer!

For some reason, you keep posting 'ice and snow' as if they are the same beast. Ice is slippy. Snow, on the other hand, can provide considerable traction.

 

[sbell111]

The point that's being made here is that you can not stop easier with 4WD, nor can you steer any better. Many people think they can, but are unable to offer any real facts.

It's good that you did the sensible thing. I wish more people were aware of the limitations of their vehicles.

I wish that people wouldn't post blanket statements.

The truth is, a good 4WD system can allow you to slow the vehicle in a safer and more controlled manner, all things being equal. Further, a good 4WD system (which includes proper tires) can help you make safer turns on ice and snow.

The 'facts' that I offer is personal experience driving both 2WD and 4wd vehicles in various inclement weather.

(I will add that a good 4WD system doubles the traction of a 2WD system. Therefore, it must be safer, even if it is only marginally safer as the roads get more and more slippy.)

 

[luvmy3]

My Jeep has the Selec-Trac transfer case: Shift on the fly, choice of 2WD, PT 4WD, FT 4X4 low or high. I've never seen a more capable system.

I think that you've arrived at an incorrect conclusion.

A few weeks ago, we got half a dozen inches of snow on a bed of ice. As is my habit, I still drove to work. I also drove my family to church and dinner and the movies. As we were out and about, I noticed that almost all of the private vehicles on the road were SUVs. (I saw three vehicles that had gotten out of control; two ditched and one was smashed into a guardrail. All three of these vehicles were cars.)

This morning as I drove to work on dry roads, I noted that the majority of vehicles on the interstate were cars.

The conclusion that this leads me to is that people are more likely to drive SUVs if they go out on snowy days. I therefore hypothesize that a higher percentage of vehicles driving in bad weather are 4WD. Therefore, the very fact that more 4WDs have accidents on bad weather is a likely a result of a much greater percentage of 4WDs being on the road during this weather, not a testiment for or against the capability of these vehicles.
No one has made any statement contrary to this.
Really? I can drive through nine inches of snow. More if it's packed.
Your entire argument is based on the premise that 'perfect' ice is being driven upon (so marginal that you need 4WD to start moving) and that 4WD drivers always drive too fast.

The simple fact is this: When I reasonable drive my Jeep in the ice and snow, I maintain control and my wheels never spin. They don't spin or slide when going around a corner, even if it is downhill. They don't spin when going uphill, even when making a sharp turn at the top of a steep hill. Most 2WD vehicles cannot accomplish this.

My 4X4 also has the ability to 'creep'. I can put the vehicle into 4WD low and slowly decend or ascend that icy hill that a 2WD car cannot hope to travel.
This is simply untrue.

If I mash my brakes on a slippy surface, I can feel the ABS working. This is true whether I am in 2WD, PT 4WD, FT 4WD low, or FT 4WD high. (I've never tried it with the transfer case in neutral, but I have no reason to believe that teh ABS wouldn't work then also.) You see, the ABS system has no way of knowing whether the transfer case is in 4WD. It's only job is to stop the wheels from locking up. It could care less if that wheel is currently a 'drive' wheel, or not.

For some reason, you keep posting 'ice and snow' as if they are the same beast. Ice is slippy. Snow, on the other hand, can provide considerable traction.

Uuumm, you do realize that I didn't write that article right? And I'm not arguing anythig, I just found the article and thought it pertained to what was being discussed here, those aren't my words in it. Like I said before, I don't believe its the car that matters, its the driver knowing how their car handles in the snow, whether its a 4WD, front wheel drive, ABS or no ABS etc etc.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I wish that people wouldn't post blanket statements.

The truth is, a good 4WD system can allow you to slow the vehicle in a safer and more controlled manner, all things being equal. Further, a good 4WD system (which includes proper tires) can help you make safer turns on ice and snow.

The 'facts' that I offer is personal experience driving both 2WD and 4wd vehicles in various inclement weather.

Well, your facts are really your personal experiences. I have also driven both and found FWD vehicles to turn and stop just as effectively. 4WDs take off from a start more effectively. When people say 2WD, they may be comparing a rear wheel drive vehicle, and they are almost useless in the snow.

Also, 4WDs usually have a higher wheel base. This makes they more dangerous in turns (higher center of gravity), but it gives them better clearance in deep snow.

At any rate, I tried to find the supporting study again and came up empty, so I can't prove anything. So my opinion carries no more weight than yours.

 

[sbell111]

Also, 4WDs usually have a higher wheel base. This makes they more dangerous in turns (higher center of gravity), but it gives them better clearance in deep snow.

The tippability of most SUVs is generally overatated by most people. Further, you are not going to be driving such a vehicle on ice at the speeds necessary for it to tip. Finally, if you were driving such a vehicle at that speed on ice, it still wouldn't tip because it would be sliding rather than sharply turning as would be necessary to flip.

(In my previous Grand Cherokee, I cut very sharply (as sharp as I could) at interstate speed (twice) in dry conditions on a dry road without it flipping.)

Uuumm, you do realize that I didn't write that article right? And I'm not arguing anythig, I just found the article and thought it pertained to what was being discussed here, those aren't my words in it. Like I said before, I don't believe its the car that matters, its the driver knowing how their car handles in the snow, whether its a 4WD, front wheel drive, ABS or no ABS etc etc.

Regardless of who wrote the article, it had clear logical and factual problems.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

The tippability of most SUVs is generally overatated by most people. Further, you are not going to be driving such a vehicle on ice at the speeds necessary for it to tip. Finally, if you were driving such a vehicle at that speed on ice, it still wouldn't tip because it would be sliding rather than sharply turning as would be necessary to flip.

(In my previous Grand Cherokee, I cut very sharply (as sharp as I could) at interstate speed (twice) in dry conditions on a dry road without it flipping.0Regardless of who wrote the article, it had clear logical and factual problems.

LOL - you love your SUV, don't you...