Pool "Hopping Mad" UPDATED

[ez]

Thank you for your update. I keep checking back on this post as it is a subject that interests almost all of us. You clarified a lot of details many were speculating about. It would be my guess that your bill at the pool bar might have something to do with it...maybe those were the folks who ratted you out!

 

[Dean]

LIDisneyFan, thanks for clarifying a few questions some of us had. It definitely puts the CM in a better light than we had previously assumed. I apologize for the assumption of gender on my part, no insult intended. I'd like to discuss further a couple of points in your last post.

I've reread the post on the member website and it is consistent with the previously stated policy. I don't recall it stated as a policy in the member guidebook but haven't looked.<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> News Flash

Due to the high occupancy that is expected in early April, DVC Members will not be permitted to use the pool at Disney's Yacht and Beach Club Resort on certain dates. The dates that have been identified so far are April 1-15, 2001, but additional dates may be included. Please check with the resort front desk regarding pool availability prior to going over to the resort. [/quote]I don't believe it is a true statement of policy as stated, only a specific information that relates to a specific pool, SAB. It further directs you to check with the front desk, which is the official policy as previously stated in the VM.

It sounds like you were in violation of the current policy and they nicely and quietly asked you to leave. Whether it was appropriate at that point to do so is another long discussion.

When I listed things that might have happened to cause them to single you out, it was only a partial list and in no way implying you or your family were guilty of any of those things, I was simply listing some of the things that could have lead to that point. I still suspect there must have been some reason they singled you out and I doubt it was you paying the bill, but who knows.

As to holding DVC accountable for things that were said or implied in the sales negotiations, it would be difficult to do. You'd need to be able to prove it was done either in writing, recorded or an independent witness or have the salesman admit he implied it was guaranteed or contractual. That's not to say it's impossible to do so, just difficult. I am always amazed at how gullible DVC members can be sometimes. How about buying into a "Club" which then goes bankrupt in a few years. What about promising you can exchange to anywhere in the world at any time, just look in the book. Then there are bonus weeks and cheap internal trading, but they forget to tell you it will go away when the resort starts to sell out since it's on a space available basis. Or maybe buying units that no longer exist and you have no recourse because it's outside the US. Royal Sunset in Cancun has immensely oversold and no one can get reservations. Or how about being locked up in a room for 6 hours and only being let out if you sign. I KNOW, IT'S DISNEY but the point is this is still a TIMESHARE purchase and ANY claims made by anyone that is not in writing should be discounted and even if in writing, taken with a grain of salt. Rich said that timeshares sales people were below used car salespeople and though I wouldn't put DVC people nearly that low, the principal is a sound one.

Again, I'm sorry you were singled out and asked to leave, seems a bit much. I'd love to know with reasonable certainly the reason you were. Let us know if you hear anything else that would shed more light on this subject.

Dean

 

[LIDisneyFan]

Dean,

The quote you cut specifically refers to SAB, and dates which may be added to THAT pool. It directs you to call the front desk regarding this situation, which is the closeure of the Y&B pool. It mentioneds NOWHERE about any other pool. If you still feel that is a violation of the policy, fine. I feel that I followed what I was told to do. Again, I had not yet received my issue of VM when I left on this vacation.

As expected, after speaking with the Director of Sales, I was told that anything in writing supercedes anything told verbally. Since the salesperson denies ever having said this, there is nothing he can do. Exactly as I expected, but I felt is was important to take Disney to task for misrepresenting imformation at the time of sale. Basically, you can trust nothing you were told by a salesperson at Disney. I know that to be basically true as a point of law (although verbal representations are as binding as written, they are useless to try to prove), it's just unfortunate that it applies to this experience.

I am not naive - however, when asking a specific questions, I expect an honest, direct answer. I now know that I cannot expect this, and will make any further purchases at Disney accordingly.

Think carefully before deciding where to buy your next 100 point add-on, because that property and your original one may someday not be exchangeable. It's in the contract you signed.

Now, do I think this will happen? No. But then again, I didn't think what happened to me would either.

I will not be posting further on this subject.

 

[KNWVIKING]

You made mention twice about the CM noticing your DVC bag. At a DVC resort, shouldn't that be normal ? Maybe someone else asked that,I haven't read all the post. Also, and I don't know why, I assumed you were a female too. Strange the way we make assumptions.

 

[Werner Weiss]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>News Flash

Due to the high occupancy that is expected in early April, DVC Members will not be permitted to use the pool at Disney's Yacht and Beach Club Resort on certain dates. The dates that have been identified so far are April 1-15, 2001, but additional dates may be included. Please check with the resort front desk regarding pool availability prior to going over to the resort.[/quote]
A resonable person could read that that statement as DVC's pool policy for this season -- especially a relatively new DVC member. It's easy to read it as saying, "Pool Hopping will be restricted only at Disney's Yacht and Beach Club Resort, at least from April 1-15, 2001 -- and possibly more days, so check with the front desk if you're planning to pool hop to the Yacht and Beach Club."

Dean wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't believe it is a true statement of policy as stated, only a specific information that relates to a specific pool, SAB. It further directs you to check with the front desk, which is the official policy as previously stated in the VM.[/quote]
The statement only directs you to check with the front desk if you're "going over to the resort" -- with the resort just having been defined as "Disney's Yacht and Beach Club Resort."

In hindsight -- especially now that we know that the pool at BWV was officially restricted last week -- we all know that the statement only applies to Disney's Yacht and Beach Club Resort.

But a reasonable person could interpret the News Flash as DVC's pool hopping rules for this Spring. I'm sure LIDisneyFan wishes the wording had been less ambiguous.

Just think how much clearer it would be if the policy were stated as:<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>News Flash

Due to the high occupancy that is expected in early April, DVC Members will not be permitted to use the pool at Disney's Yacht and Beach Club Resort on certain dates. The dates that have been identified so far are April 1-15, 2001, but additional dates and additional resorts may be included. Please check with the resort front desk regarding pool availability prior to using the pool at any resort other than the DVC resort where you are staying.[/quote]
Even my edited version above is still ambiguous as to whether to call the front desk of the resort where you are staying or where you want to use the pool.

-----
Werner Weiss, Curator of Yesterland, featuring discontinued Disneyland attractions

[This message was edited by Werner Weiss on 04-16-01 at 12:48 PM.]

 

[David]

They would have had to call security to make me leave!

 

[Caskbill]

LIDisneyFan:
I too thought you were female and don't know why, maybe just following suit from other posters. But I did notice one thing in my personal interpretation of your username. In my mind, I was seeing Lil'DisneyFan somehow (which may sound somewhat feminine) as opposed to LongIslandDisneyFan which I believe is your intent. Interesting how the mind works?

My apologies for this error. (Have you since thought about adding your gender in your profile?)

There's no easy answer to what happened to you as it was just too grey of an area. You were right, and Disney was right. Under the wording of the policy as published, the rule is not clear. It should be more as Werner suggests.

And you have absolutely legitimate complaints on your other issues, and it sounds especially so with your Sales Rep.

May all your future DVC trips truly be Disney magic to be rememberd , and that this incident can be resolved fairly for you, and then finally forgotten. ( --> --> <IMG WIDTH="15" HEIGHT="15" SRC="/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif" alt="razz"> --> <IMG SRC="/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif" alt="confused"> --> --> --> )


Caskbill

 

[pax_65]

I've read through this entire thread... one thing I've noticed is a true willingness on everyone's part to follow the pool-hopping rules. In fact, most members are willing to jump through hoops to take advantage of this member privilege.

So what are the rules? They seem to keep changing. Disney needs to set the rules, stick to them, and enforce them fairly.

Then, we all need to follow them... and as I've said, I don't think that will be a problem.

Jon
Going in 3 DAYS!!!

 

[Zimbubba]

I agree with a previous poster...If asked to leave we can always say No! Also, anything a sales rep tells us does not hold up anywhere...only what is in writing.

 

[AZKathy]

I have been following this thread since the beginning and I just wanted to add that it has been a very educating thread for me and I very much appreciate all that has been said!

See, we are going in June and plan on pool hopping this time around for the first time and now will know how to do it properly without causing the embarrassment for me and my family that LIDisFan experienced!! Thanks again, fellow DVCers!

<font color=fuchsia>DVC/OKW '97</font>
<font color=fuchsia>OKW June5-8; VB June 8-11; OKW June 11-20, 2001</font>

 

[Dean]

LIDisneyFan, the policy is unclear. It was stated in a VM in 1998 and is not in our member guidelines or the POS, unfortunately. The previously written policy in the VM was not specific to SAB and directed one to call the front desk to check before heading over. I can see how someone could take what is on the Website as the policy and assume everything else was fair game. I had no intention of saying you intentionally violated the policy, only that you didn't follow it to the letter as "I" understand it.

I had this am off so I decided to call DVC MS this morning, they were as vague as the "policy" is to us. They said it's not written down for them either. I was told that it was up to the resort which could make a decision minute by minute based on pool occupancy. The lady was unaware of recent closures except SAB. My response was that if I checked and they closed it while I was enroute, that would be pretty low. The lady agreed.

One thing to remember is that if they firm up the policy, it might not be to the members advantage. One should never trust what one is told by a timeshare sales person if it's not in writing, Disney, Marriott or otherwise. And yes I read the entire POS before I signed.

Again sorry things didn't work out, I wouldn't let it sour you on the entire system. I remember going through a similar issue as I was told that the free passes were good the day of arival and the day of departure. Since I ended up buying resale, not much I could say but it did dampen my spirits for a time.

Dean

 

[normr]

Set up a TV channel for DVC resort info including pool hopping, that way, we can flip on the TV and check out the statuso

 

[mjackson]

Sorry about your situation. Can't believe that happened to you and your family. fight fight fight

 

[SwampFox]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If I was ever told to leave a Member resort facility listed in the purchase documents I would sue, big time, the embarrassment factor alone is too horrendous to contemplate. [/quote]

So, you feel that members are entitled to use any/all DVC resort facilities whenever they choose- even if they are not a guest staying at that resort? That's an interesting interpetation of the contract!
Good luck with your lawsuit.

 

[Joeblack]

Wow. That is a great twist to the whole story UKEagle. Very interesting point.

You quote (from the legal documents I presume): "The recreational and other commonly used facilities currently available for use through the Club will be used by Club Members, their guests, exchangers and renters"

Club Members staying on points are not mentioned although that seems to have always been the rule.

From that, I understand tha, as a DVC member I can use the pool at my home resort whether I am staying at the resort or not.

I don't have the documents at hand but, is there something that mentions using the pool in another DVC resort (Like LiDisney did?). If there is nothing..then I guess you are right..you would win a lawsuit hands down.

 

[KNWVIKING]

I think I'm going to lamenate certain pages of my contract and carry them with me from pool to pool. By the time the poor CM gets done trying to interprete them the sun will probably have gone down and I'd be long gone.

 

[Werner Weiss]

The key phrase is "for use through the Club."

"The Club" is the mechanism through which we use our deeded Ownership Interest. So we would only have access to the pools and other "recreational and other commonly used facilities" while staying on points -- just as we don't have access to condos unless we're staying on points.

Of course, UK Eagle is reading the words differently. Perhaps UK Eagle is correct and I'm mistaken. But perhaps UK Eagle is mistaken.

-----
Werner Weiss, Curator of Yesterland, featuring discontinued Disneyland attractions

 

[Jimbo]

By any interpretation, though, the two incidents posted here are disturbing. Throwing members out of the pool area of a DVC resort is a pretty extreme measure. And in both cases, the members were staying at a different DVC resort on points. It seems to me that BWV needs to review their policy on this, because it's certainly not obvious reading the rules that they had right to eject these people.

Is this one of the problems that exist when you combine a DVC resort with an existing hotel? Maybe they feel that they need to "protect" BWI guests rights.

 

[Joeblack]

UK Eagle:

I am not in the least skeptical about your your point. I am actually quite happy for such a competent and clear interpretation. Maybe most of us did not bother to go through the papers as thoroughly as you did. What you point out sounds totally right and maybe LiDisneyFan and Scarlet should sue Disney for emotional damage and not delivering on a signed contract.

A lot has been said on this debate, but not until UK Eagle's thread, have I seen any possibility of a solution. I can't wait for other people's input into this matter in view of this new interpretation.

Thanks again UK Eagle. Maybe you should start a new thread since your clarification is of outmost importance to anyone who cares about pool hopping.

 

[RobDoc]

In spite of the interpretation offered by UKEagle, here are a couple of other sections to consider. (I am NOT an attorney...nor do I play one on TV.)

From my POS (dated 7/95), Section III, 5,a.,(1),(b)- under DVC Resort Restrictions: "For specific restrictions on the use of the Vacation Homes and facilities of the DVC Resorts, Club Members should refer to the Condominium Rules and Regulations promulgated by the board of directors of each Association, ..."

From the Buena Vista Trading Company Disclosure Document for Disney Vacation Club, Section VII., 7.5 Amendment: "BVTC in its sole discretion may change the terms and conditions of this Disclosure Document and the rules and regulations set forth herein. These changes may affect a Club Member's right to use, exchange and rent the Club Member's Ownership Interest and impose obligations upon the use and enjoyment of his or her Ownership Interest and the appurtenant Club Membership. Such changes may be made by BVTC without the consent of any Club Member and may adversely affect a Club Member's rights and benefits and increase the Club Member's costs of ownership."

It sounds to me as though each resort may create it's own rules and regulations, which could even affect the use of facilities.