Chris, I'm glad your happy, but if your were sitting with 10 airline tickets for Orlando 12/30 - 1/03/02 and found out that -oh sorry it's going to cost you 216 points per room/4 nights instead of 140, I think you would be a little disturbed. Maybe I'm the only one in this predicament. So who cares about one or two members. I would hope that I would feel badly if this happened to anyone, not just myself. Maybe most members never stay at DC hotels. But wasn't it part of the deal knowing you could if you needed to ?
Points for Disney Collection 2002
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Dean
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Hopefully you were informed when you made the reservations that the points could change, I know those that made the DCL reservations without the points table were so told. Regardless, I'm sure none of us expect this drastic a change and it is a great difficulty for some in this situation and none of us should take your problem lightly. Good luck and we'll be thinking about you.
Kem -- I feel your pain. It doesn't seem as if the possibility of drastic increases just "came" to DVC. At the time you were booking they could have given some indication, even just to say, "There's a chance the the program will be completely revamped resulting in changes to the point system."
Still waiting to see the point chart but I don't get how there's a need for big increases in some seasons and reported decreases in others. Either they need to generate more income to cover the room costs or they don't. Maybe they are doing one-for-one comparisons....what a room at BWV brings in January vs. the cost of a deluxe room in January rather than an overall pool. Who knows what they're thinking?
One thing that has confused me. Originally, I thought you weren't able to book a room at a Disney resort unless the same time was available at a DVC resort. People are talking about booking Disney resorts when the DVC is unavailable. Maybe that has something to do with the need to raise the points? They've expanded beyond just one-for-one trades.
Still waiting to see the point chart but I don't get how there's a need for big increases in some seasons and reported decreases in others. Either they need to generate more income to cover the room costs or they don't. Maybe they are doing one-for-one comparisons....what a room at BWV brings in January vs. the cost of a deluxe room in January rather than an overall pool. Who knows what they're thinking?
One thing that has confused me. Originally, I thought you weren't able to book a room at a Disney resort unless the same time was available at a DVC resort. People are talking about booking Disney resorts when the DVC is unavailable. Maybe that has something to do with the need to raise the points? They've expanded beyond just one-for-one trades.
Towncrier
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In 1997 my wife had planned to use our DVC points to get rooms at Disneyland Paris during our two week visit to friends in Antwerp. We made plans, got tickets, and called MS to find out when the point charts for DLP would be published so that we could make the appropriate reservations. Well, as it turns out, our vacation just happened to fall just ahead of Easter, so of course the points necessary to get two rooms went through the roof. My wife was in tears when she found out that all of our plans had gone to (you-know-what).
In our case there was a happy ending. Someone at MS asked us if we had an Amex card and suggested that we check for any special deals from them. It turns out that there was a promotion going on and we ended up paying just $79/night for each room, and that the promotion included park admission for our children. The vacation was wonderful. We ended up "selling" a 5 night vacation to some friends for $5/point which helped them out and totally paid for our little visit to DLP.
The moral of this story (at least for us). Don't ever use last year's point charts to plan next year's vacation. You might be sorry. For those of you who have been burned, I feel your pain.
In our case there was a happy ending. Someone at MS asked us if we had an Amex card and suggested that we check for any special deals from them. It turns out that there was a promotion going on and we ended up paying just $79/night for each room, and that the promotion included park admission for our children. The vacation was wonderful. We ended up "selling" a 5 night vacation to some friends for $5/point which helped them out and totally paid for our little visit to DLP.
The moral of this story (at least for us). Don't ever use last year's point charts to plan next year's vacation. You might be sorry. For those of you who have been burned, I feel your pain.
Dean, Pam and Towncrier, Thanks for the support!
I did expect points would increase somewhat but when your guide tells you nothing much has changed in 10 years, and then they go up 200% in one year, it is a bit of a shock. I had no intention of setting off mass hysteria. Just concern about changes in DVC privileges. Well I think I've beaten this subject to death. We'll all have plenty more to talk about when the schedule is published next week!!
In the meantime, I think I'll be looking at putting my relatives in the Swan/Dolphin if the wait list at BW doesn't clear (sure not crazy about having to come up with the cash, though!).
I did expect points would increase somewhat but when your guide tells you nothing much has changed in 10 years, and then they go up 200% in one year, it is a bit of a shock. I had no intention of setting off mass hysteria. Just concern about changes in DVC privileges. Well I think I've beaten this subject to death. We'll all have plenty more to talk about when the schedule is published next week!! In the meantime, I think I'll be looking at putting my relatives in the Swan/Dolphin if the wait list at BW doesn't clear (sure not crazy about having to come up with the cash, though!).There is not one bit of lost flexibility--you are still as able to turn your DVC Vacation Points into Reservation Points via a simple call to Member Services. Is it possible that they have reassesed the price they pay compounded with the funds recouped in regards to the current economy? I would hope they do, and I'm confident that they have.
You want to mention flexibility? I say bravo and thank you to DVC for opening the possibility of us locking certian rooms/views/services.
When I first looked at DVC, the point charts for Disney Exchanges limited the number of hotels beyond the current limits (no Moderates) and the exchange rates were very high. I quickly realized that DVC was DVC--and the options and perks are nice, but I was locking in four resorts. When I restarted looking, they gained two resorts (one near completion: WLV and one starting: BCV), and to boot, the Disney Exchanges had come down in cost.
And now the economy has turned south, and they cannot recoup the money for our DVC rooms as fast, and that is fine--over the next 40 years we will probably see at least 4-5 full economic cycles which will have a direct impact on those point charts. Some will lead to elimination of perks, others will lead to expanded options.
But folks--in 40 years--there might be no need for the Disney Collection as the number of DVC Resorts continues to grow much faster than the rate os stand-alone resorts.
Disney is not trying to screw DVC in any way, shape or form--it is one of the most successful businesses that the entire corporation runs--and we are their best clients.
Nick
You want to mention flexibility? I say bravo and thank you to DVC for opening the possibility of us locking certian rooms/views/services.
When I first looked at DVC, the point charts for Disney Exchanges limited the number of hotels beyond the current limits (no Moderates) and the exchange rates were very high. I quickly realized that DVC was DVC--and the options and perks are nice, but I was locking in four resorts. When I restarted looking, they gained two resorts (one near completion: WLV and one starting: BCV), and to boot, the Disney Exchanges had come down in cost.
And now the economy has turned south, and they cannot recoup the money for our DVC rooms as fast, and that is fine--over the next 40 years we will probably see at least 4-5 full economic cycles which will have a direct impact on those point charts. Some will lead to elimination of perks, others will lead to expanded options.
But folks--in 40 years--there might be no need for the Disney Collection as the number of DVC Resorts continues to grow much faster than the rate os stand-alone resorts.
Disney is not trying to screw DVC in any way, shape or form--it is one of the most successful businesses that the entire corporation runs--and we are their best clients.
Nick
prplcrzy
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For those of you who are upset I am very sorry, and for those of you who made reservations and the point values increased I am also sorry.
I hate to rain on the parade, but I had my member stuff handy because I wasn't sure what everyone was getting so upset about and still don't.
I read the member benefits guidebook before I purchased and weighed the things that said they were optional and asked if I could live without it if I purchased DVC. I said yes to the stuff and that's why I bought.
I am sorry if you didn't read the materials before purchasing but here is a quote from the guidebook-
" The collection is being solely offered by DVD and intender for incidental use by DVC Members and their guests. Participation in the Collection by a DVC Member is voluntary. Subject to paragraph 12 below, DVD reserves the right to limit or eliminate, in its sole discretion and without further notice to DVC members, the ability of a DVC Member to exchange the use of DVC Accommodations for Disney Collection Accommodations."
That is the first paragraph under policies and guidelines.
The last paragraph is this-
" The collection is offered as an alternative to staying at a DVC Resort, but is not necessarily a discount program. In no event shall the value of the collection be deemed to exceed an amount equal to one dollar.
It seems to me the program is getting too popular, and instead of taking it away they have increased the point usage to make it unattractive.
They are actually doing the right thing and everyone is ready to sell off their memberships. This is a signal that while maybe not a lot of members are using it, more that anticipated in the cost models are. Be glad they didn't take it away all together.
It was never meant to be a value, just an option.
If you spent more than $10,000 without reading the fine print, I am sorry about that but you shouldn't take it out on them. They are not trying to screw you, it seems that just the opposite is happening and everyone is ready to burn the mouse at the stake for being a heritic. They obviously thought this could happen, and when it did they will raise the point values until it either meet the cost model or they will discontinue it.
This is a business, and like any other it is in business to make money.
I hate to rain on the parade, but I had my member stuff handy because I wasn't sure what everyone was getting so upset about and still don't.
I read the member benefits guidebook before I purchased and weighed the things that said they were optional and asked if I could live without it if I purchased DVC. I said yes to the stuff and that's why I bought.
I am sorry if you didn't read the materials before purchasing but here is a quote from the guidebook-
" The collection is being solely offered by DVD and intender for incidental use by DVC Members and their guests. Participation in the Collection by a DVC Member is voluntary. Subject to paragraph 12 below, DVD reserves the right to limit or eliminate, in its sole discretion and without further notice to DVC members, the ability of a DVC Member to exchange the use of DVC Accommodations for Disney Collection Accommodations."
That is the first paragraph under policies and guidelines.
The last paragraph is this-
" The collection is offered as an alternative to staying at a DVC Resort, but is not necessarily a discount program. In no event shall the value of the collection be deemed to exceed an amount equal to one dollar.
It seems to me the program is getting too popular, and instead of taking it away they have increased the point usage to make it unattractive.
They are actually doing the right thing and everyone is ready to sell off their memberships. This is a signal that while maybe not a lot of members are using it, more that anticipated in the cost models are. Be glad they didn't take it away all together.
It was never meant to be a value, just an option.
If you spent more than $10,000 without reading the fine print, I am sorry about that but you shouldn't take it out on them. They are not trying to screw you, it seems that just the opposite is happening and everyone is ready to burn the mouse at the stake for being a heritic. They obviously thought this could happen, and when it did they will raise the point values until it either meet the cost model or they will discontinue it.
This is a business, and like any other it is in business to make money.
Dean
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I agree with your post although I've always contended and told Matt Gibbs this directly, "offering options without value is insulting and unreasonable" and that's the way I've always looked at the CC, DCL, DC, etc. There are exceptions like certian holidays, points you'll use or lose, and the DCL in certain situations.
Disney Adventurer
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I'm jumping in here a little late but if the concern from Disney was members renting points, there's other ways to stop/limit that. As a current member of RCI, if I were to give my exchange to a friend, they require a Guest Certificate for $49. Disney could do the same thing. Require ID of members at check in. If the member wants to sell points Disney could then charge a "surcharge" for non-DVC members staying on DVC points at DC resorts. This would reduce the points selling to DC resorts, but if a DVC member wants to stay, then no surcharge. I think Disney is well aware of all there options; therefor, I believe they want to reduce all DVC points stays at DC resorts, no just stop point selling.
Dean
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Legally they can't do any of that. Disney can't prevent you from renting what you own as long as the area is not zoned in a way to prevent rentals. Obviously WDW won't do that, they have a few rooms to rent. Just like RCI doesn't get involved if you rent out the week you own. Whether they could block non home resort rentals might be a different matter but they'd have to change the POS.
prplcrzy
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I really don't think rentals are the issue here, I think that 60,000 members is the issue and more once the other resorts come on line for sales. I really think they are trying to slow down the DVC usage of the other hotels.
Dean, I think that the reason that these options have no value is to prevent a lawsuit if things like this happen or it is taken away. It is a shame they have no value but again if you read the guidebook, the language states that much and this could have been foreseen. I expected something like this when I bought, I never expected that it would cause a panic and upset so many people so much.
Personally this whole thread doesn't even bother me since I still don't understand why anyone would want to use their points to stay in one of the regular hotels when you can stay in the DVC units. I would only use the other hotels as a booking for a use it or lose it situation. I'll probably never have one of those.
Dean, I think that the reason that these options have no value is to prevent a lawsuit if things like this happen or it is taken away. It is a shame they have no value but again if you read the guidebook, the language states that much and this could have been foreseen. I expected something like this when I bought, I never expected that it would cause a panic and upset so many people so much.
Personally this whole thread doesn't even bother me since I still don't understand why anyone would want to use their points to stay in one of the regular hotels when you can stay in the DVC units. I would only use the other hotels as a booking for a use it or lose it situation. I'll probably never have one of those.
prplecrazy: like you I carefully read each document, but the pollyanna in me had the naive notion that Disney was a company that played fair. Sure, I knew they could take it away or change it, but surely not without a lot of advance notice or some gradual increases and some justification. All of sudden , Poof, 200% increase Jan 1 and 2. What were they thinking? It certainly is a politically unsavvy move to abruptly change a benefit without
explanation or plenty of notice. Yes, legally they protected themselves, but verbally they were telling a much different story when I bought! I would rather use my points at BWV, but at 10 1/2 months they were already gone, so DC was my back up plan in case WL didn't come through.
explanation or plenty of notice. Yes, legally they protected themselves, but verbally they were telling a much different story when I bought! I would rather use my points at BWV, but at 10 1/2 months they were already gone, so DC was my back up plan in case WL didn't come through.
Johnnie Fedora
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I have read the majority of this thread (thanks, 50 pages really gave me reading for the train home), and still have a hard time understanding why DVC pays rack rate for the rooms of the DC collection. Really, does it cost Disney $350.00/night for staffing and all the ammenities to house a family for 20hours at a deluxe resort?? I would venture a guess that Disney makes a tidy $$$$ sum on their hotels, even with this years discounts.
I certainly don't understand the ins and outs of these corporate affiliations etc. But, if DVC is truly its own entity, then shouldn't it be able to negotiate better than rack rate for it's members???
I do agree with the majority who feel that variety was/and is a major selling feature of DVC. It is heavily promoted on the video and in the book. I don't think I would be using DC much, maybe a night or two. Having it as a "reasonable exchange" was an attraction, and part of the reason we planned on buying extra points. Currently, we're sitting on a 50 pt add-on, and eagerly awaiting BCV......Gonna have to think this through a little more!?!?!? I was originally against buying DVC several years ago, but rethought it, and purchased this year based on the many options available in the DVC program. I don't regret it, as I love the VWL, but large increases in point costs will definetly alter the total number of DVC points we will be adding on.
Maybe this is just the bad news first and DVC will have some good news too (Sorry, just being a little shall we say....Polyanna). Personally, this DC point thing would be OK with me if members were offered a "peace offering perk" (are you out there Mickey????). Might I suggest 35-40% off annual park passes!!!
I certainly don't understand the ins and outs of these corporate affiliations etc. But, if DVC is truly its own entity, then shouldn't it be able to negotiate better than rack rate for it's members???
I do agree with the majority who feel that variety was/and is a major selling feature of DVC. It is heavily promoted on the video and in the book. I don't think I would be using DC much, maybe a night or two. Having it as a "reasonable exchange" was an attraction, and part of the reason we planned on buying extra points. Currently, we're sitting on a 50 pt add-on, and eagerly awaiting BCV......Gonna have to think this through a little more!?!?!? I was originally against buying DVC several years ago, but rethought it, and purchased this year based on the many options available in the DVC program. I don't regret it, as I love the VWL, but large increases in point costs will definetly alter the total number of DVC points we will be adding on.
Maybe this is just the bad news first and DVC will have some good news too (Sorry, just being a little shall we say....Polyanna). Personally, this DC point thing would be OK with me if members were offered a "peace offering perk" (are you out there Mickey????). Might I suggest 35-40% off annual park passes!!!
prplcrzy
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Kem,
I don't know who your guide is, but it sounds like you should be mad at them. I was told that the points on the DVC resorts could never change but that they could be used in other places. I was also told that this could change nut currently these are the places that they could be used. My guide didn't make it sound like it was a sure thing, but she didn't sound the alarm bell either.
These are sales people, it is their job to make it sound good, not warn you of the pitfalls. That is why they have the guidebooks for when you purchase.
I don't agree they are playing unfair since they disclosed this in the guidebook, but I most certainly agree this was not the smartest move they could have made and it is a poor way of doing it.
The Boardwalk seems to be the most popular DVC resort out there and OKW seems to have no trouble booking within the seven month window. It just depends on where you want to stay and if you want to stay at the Boardwalk, you need to plan way ahead because of it's popularity.
I would call my guide and give them an earful if you were lead to believe something that is not true.
Good luck!
I don't know who your guide is, but it sounds like you should be mad at them. I was told that the points on the DVC resorts could never change but that they could be used in other places. I was also told that this could change nut currently these are the places that they could be used. My guide didn't make it sound like it was a sure thing, but she didn't sound the alarm bell either.
These are sales people, it is their job to make it sound good, not warn you of the pitfalls. That is why they have the guidebooks for when you purchase.
I don't agree they are playing unfair since they disclosed this in the guidebook, but I most certainly agree this was not the smartest move they could have made and it is a poor way of doing it.
The Boardwalk seems to be the most popular DVC resort out there and OKW seems to have no trouble booking within the seven month window. It just depends on where you want to stay and if you want to stay at the Boardwalk, you need to plan way ahead because of it's popularity.
I would call my guide and give them an earful if you were lead to believe something that is not true.
Good luck!
Several pages ago someone noted that Disney "values" points at $5 per point. I'd like to point out this is where they will "buy " points and therefore that is a level at which they deem they can make a "reasonable" opperating profit on those points. Not what they think is "fair value"
Like many people I wouldn't use the WDW hotels out of choice BUT due to the set up of the system and the flexibility inherant in that system there is a possibility that at some time I would HAVE to use the hotel options to use my points if I didn't want to sell the points on. We're all in the same boat on this , so take off the rose tinted specs people. There is no point in sitting back and saying " well I always book 11 months out and I read the booklet so it doesn't effect me" It is perfectly possible that ( particularly if you own at a smaller resort) one year ( due to work family or health commitments ) you couldn't book exactly 11 months in advance and find that your resort has no space. Wait till the 7 month window and find again that ALL the other resorts are full. Where is your out? To use ALL your annual allotment on a three night stay at one of the WDW hotels? IMHO that isn't helpful or really a serious option.
Due to the way DVC is set up i.e a FLEXIBLE points system that opperates SUBJECT TO AVAILABILITY IMHO the opperating company is HONOUR BOUND to allow for that fact there is the POSSIBILITY that a large enough percentage of the owners will want to take their vacation at the same/similar times. Obviously it is impossible for the opperating company to GUARANTEE EXACTLY what that "bail out" system is for the duration of 50 years but in order to sell a workable system you have to understand you are DUTY BOUND to offer a realistic alternative. Having hotel rooms available at 6,7 or 8 times the "cost" of what you're selling is not a realistic out for the people you are selling to.
I will accept that NONe of that is legally enforcable because of the way DVC contracts were drawn BUT Disney sold on its name, traded on it's name, used it's name. Not the name being a byword in entertainment giant but on Disney being a byword for Quality, service and a company that you can TRUST in. IF Disney wishes to continue selling DVC it should realise that moving the goalposts in such a manner is going to damage it's credibility, tarish it's name (which is the biggest selling point it has) and ultimately it hurts it's ability to sell at the best price.
IMHO it's bad business not to honour your commitments when you plan to sell on trust in your name. Without doubt Disney is not treating it's current owners with the respect ( informing them ahead of time) nor is it treating them fairly ( removing benefits without replacing them with an arguably similar benefit) It could be very easily viewed that Disney's attitude is " we have your money so we don't give a &#** about how you feel". If they don't care enough about how that appears to their current owners, they should care about how it looks to their future owners, or are they THAT ARROGANT ??
Like many people I wouldn't use the WDW hotels out of choice BUT due to the set up of the system and the flexibility inherant in that system there is a possibility that at some time I would HAVE to use the hotel options to use my points if I didn't want to sell the points on. We're all in the same boat on this , so take off the rose tinted specs people. There is no point in sitting back and saying " well I always book 11 months out and I read the booklet so it doesn't effect me" It is perfectly possible that ( particularly if you own at a smaller resort) one year ( due to work family or health commitments ) you couldn't book exactly 11 months in advance and find that your resort has no space. Wait till the 7 month window and find again that ALL the other resorts are full. Where is your out? To use ALL your annual allotment on a three night stay at one of the WDW hotels? IMHO that isn't helpful or really a serious option.
Due to the way DVC is set up i.e a FLEXIBLE points system that opperates SUBJECT TO AVAILABILITY IMHO the opperating company is HONOUR BOUND to allow for that fact there is the POSSIBILITY that a large enough percentage of the owners will want to take their vacation at the same/similar times. Obviously it is impossible for the opperating company to GUARANTEE EXACTLY what that "bail out" system is for the duration of 50 years but in order to sell a workable system you have to understand you are DUTY BOUND to offer a realistic alternative. Having hotel rooms available at 6,7 or 8 times the "cost" of what you're selling is not a realistic out for the people you are selling to.
I will accept that NONe of that is legally enforcable because of the way DVC contracts were drawn BUT Disney sold on its name, traded on it's name, used it's name. Not the name being a byword in entertainment giant but on Disney being a byword for Quality, service and a company that you can TRUST in. IF Disney wishes to continue selling DVC it should realise that moving the goalposts in such a manner is going to damage it's credibility, tarish it's name (which is the biggest selling point it has) and ultimately it hurts it's ability to sell at the best price.
IMHO it's bad business not to honour your commitments when you plan to sell on trust in your name. Without doubt Disney is not treating it's current owners with the respect ( informing them ahead of time) nor is it treating them fairly ( removing benefits without replacing them with an arguably similar benefit) It could be very easily viewed that Disney's attitude is " we have your money so we don't give a &#** about how you feel". If they don't care enough about how that appears to their current owners, they should care about how it looks to their future owners, or are they THAT ARROGANT ??
Dean
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We are in agreement.
I too agree and asked this question of Matt Gibbs. He gave me the impression that since they were contracting for the entire year and the fact that the other side knew it was a captive audience, they were stuck. I told him I expected a better negotiated rate but obviously my words had the opposite affect.
Vernon, maybe we're saying the same thing. It's been a couple of years (maybe 3) since I made direct financial evaluations of the CC and Cruise options and this was before DCL. At that time I looked at about 4 or 5 CC options and the Alaskan and Caribbean Cruise options. I took the advertised prices for the CC resorts I could find, not the rack rates, and looked at the standard discounted fares for Holland America and Princess and in every case the value per point was almost exactly $5 pp. Of course you'll find a holiday or other time of the year that's not blacked out and you can't find specials and that will provide a different analysis. The DCL appears to be a special situation in some instances more than others, but it's because the prices are so high compared to the industry, not because it's such a good overall value.
Doctor P
<font color=navy><font color=navy>Chocolate covere
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As others have said, I am waiting to see the entire points schedule before I make a final judgement. The Disney resort seasons do not match up perfectly with the DVC seasons. In fact, the dates of the Disney resort seasons have tended to vary quite a bit around the holidays each year. Though the rate of increase would still be relatively high, a BCV villa room going from 48 pts. to 60 pts. (under the assumption that the holiday period has just been extended to include through the weekend after New Years), would be a 20-25% rate of increase (there are actually two acceptable ways to calculate the rate of increase in a price). Given that the point prices have not increased, according to an earlier post, since at least 1999 the annual rate of increase is more like 7-8%. I certainly would not have wanted to be in the position of my fellow DVC'ers who had the point price increase sprung for their upcoming trip without anticipating such a large increase, but I also am not yet convinced that the sky is falling (it might be, but I want to have more facts before I start worrying). We had a thread a little while ago about the drastic increases point prices for DCL cruises that, frankly, turned out to be a bit of much ado about nothing once all the facts were in. Being a Pollyanna, I think it is nice that those who want access to the concierge levels of the deluxe resorts may now assure themselves such access with their points.
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