Pleasure Island out, shopping in

Pleasure Island was a direct copy of the old Church Street Station complex in downtown Orlando. Disney didn't like the idea of adults leaving property every night to drink, so just like mini-golf, they co-opted the competition

I knew that they wanted to get the adults to stay on-site. But, I thought, at least at the beginning, Pleasure Island was a fairly family friendly place. However, there were still clubs which were definately adult oriented and only Over 21 to keep that crowd interested.

Pleasure Island is just one of the victims of the trend. All of Downtown Disney is seen as nothing but a shopping mall and P.I. was that odd, old little bit that didn't fit the model. That's being changed. The buildings and plots will be sold off as quickly as buyers can be found - be it McDonalds or 'T-Rex Cafe' or a Hooters.

And I just find that so sad. Nothing more to really say about that.
 
Pleasure Island, at the beginning, was somewhat geared to adults. The complex opened up around the same time as the Dolphin/Swan-Yacht/Beach Clubs complexes were opening. Those are giant convention center were expected to get most of the their money from trade shows, meetings and other gatherings of the expense report crowd. Pleasure Island was a way to tap into their evening dollars.

Videopolis East was a concession to the "family" market, and it was quickly realized that it was a giant mistake. Keeping all those teenagers locked-up turned to be impossible and security became a nightmare - it's said more Disney security personel were injured in the first year of P.I.'s operation than had been injured than in all the years since WDW had been opened, combined.

At the beginning, anyway, Disney tried to keep the place fairly calm and toned down. It was seen as very much a "Disney" place, but for adults. It didn't cater to childern and families, but it wasn't hostile to them either.

Then the financials came in.

Pleasure Island was very expensive to build (as they said, they "baxtered the budget") and extremely expensive to operate. As a middle of the road place, it wasn't generating a lot of adult traffic because, frankly, middle age suits away from the wife and kids for a couple days don't want to party around kids and the princess pack was horrified that their precious little DD's and DS's might get a whiff of that demon rum. People also found the tickets for clubs difficult to understand (do I want a 3-club night or spring for the 5-club night?). The result, it was rumored, was the complex was losing a million a day.

This being Disney under Eisner, the entire management of the Island was fired and Eisner brought in his own person to run place - his interior designer. Yes, the guy who helped pick out Eisner's office furniture was given the task of running P.I. (to be fair, the guy had an Ivy League education and, like Eisner, from one of Manhatten's mega-weathly families - becoming a Master of Captial was this guy's fate).

He took the easiest route possible to make a bar profitable - he upped the bar sales. Before booze was kepted safely in the clubs. Now P.I. was the place were models in bikinnis and tequilla shots would roller blade up and down the street. Buckets of ice and beer were positioned to block major walkways. Jello shots were served by bodybuilders in g-strings.

Profits soared. And they stayed that way as long as WDW was attracting the convention goers, the honneymooners, the big vaction crowd and other free spending markets.

But as Disney feel into the slump in early 2000, marketing made a radical shift. Instead of trying to attract new people to WDW and the people willing to spend money on a big vacation - Disney went after the repeat crowd to make them come back more often. Cheaper motel rooms, DVC and other incentives first turned the "once every three year" trip into an annual trip; then the annual trip to a couple long weekends every year. This crowd was interested in saving money, not finding new ways of spending it. The appeal of five buck beers quickly faded.

Then Disney furthered refined WDW into a "brand experience" place - instead of a general vacation destination it became All Disney Products, All The Time. The crowd that used to enjoy fine dining around World Showcase was pushed aside by Princess Dinners, people looking for golf or tennis became second class citizens to people trading pins. And adults looking for clubs and adult nighttime activies were outnumbered by people squeeling for nothing but Mickey.

That was the final straw for P.I. There was no way Disney could "brand-up" the place and keep it profitable. Booze and snow globe collectors don't mix. So Disney is abandoning the island. It will be sold off in bits as they find idiots, I mean, business people willing to pay Disney's huge rents for their crack at the tourist market.
 
Disney is all about the money these days, .

Basicly thats what a buisness is all about.it was that whent walt set it up.if they didnt make money they would have to shut the parks down
Paulh
 

Basicly thats what a buisness is all about.it was that whent walt set it up.if they didnt make money they would have to shut the parks down
Paulh

There is a world of difference between Disney today being all about the money, "We will not be distracted from what has been and must remain our sole focus - delivering growth and shareholder value" (Michael Eisner), and "Disneyland is a work of love. We didn't go into Disneyland just with the idea of making money" (Walt Disney).
 
There is a world of difference between Disney today being all about the money, "We will not be distracted from what has been and must remain our sole focus - delivering growth and shareholder value" (Michael Eisner), and "Disneyland is a work of love. We didn't go into Disneyland just with the idea of making money" (Walt Disney).

Well .. I'm not up on the history on this point .. but that's the kind of thing that happens when you take a company public.

The markets these days (as is frequently noted on these very boards) are very unforgiving. The slightest sign of weakness is an order to 'sell sell sell'... and in the end that directly affects share price, market cap, credit rating, ability to raise capital, interest rates paid on debt.... and all those things affect your eventual profitability .. it's a vicious cycle.

Walt was a fine guy (publicly anyway) .. he espoused some excellent core business values that the current management team could definitely take some cues from .. but eulogies and homilies aside.. he'd be shredded in today's business world IMHO.

K
 
he'd be shredded in today's business world IMHO.
This is probably the most bogus, ill-informed and incorrect statement that continually gets made on these boards. Ignorance seems to be harder to stomp out than the common cold.

Stop with the foolishness and get back to an intelligent discussion. Victimization and “poor put-upon Disney can only afford Dino-Rama” works with stupid fanbois, but it doesn’t work in adult conversation.


The heart of the matter is increasing turnstile click across the entire property, not just one gate verses another. Corporate is convinced, and with pretty good justification, that they’ve basically hit the limit on the number of people who will go to WDW. There is a limited market for theme parks, a limited market for the Disney Brand Experience.

The idea behind Animal Kingdom was to both get more people to come and to get people to stay longer. The problem with the park is that Disney in AK overwhelmed the nature element (and turned off people looking for zoos or nature parks) and the Disney crowd had hit the limit on the number of days they can afford on property.

Until a way can be found around those two issues – either finding a way to appeal to the non-Brand crowd or upscaling the Disney audience to afford more days – attendance is basically stuck where it is. So far Disney has shown little ability or desire to attempt either goal (beside taking some snooty art photos for upscale glamour magazines).

The other issue is capital investment. Disney hates spending money on the parks. You get a much faster return from another year of Zack and Cody than building stuff. That’s why you won’t see a evening parks or mini parks. Too much capital for a twenty year payback.

Instead, you’ll see a continuation of revenue enhancement activities. New ways to make people pay for the same park over and over again (‘Pirates and Princess Party), sharp pencil carnival gimmicks inside the parks (on-ride photos, holiday pricing), and the expansion of add-ons (Fantasmic! Dinner plans).
 
This is probably the most bogus, ill-informed and incorrect statement that continually gets made on these boards. Ignorance seems to be harder to stomp out than the common cold. Stop with the foolishness and get back to an intelligent discussion.

Another Voice, I enjoy your posts and you appear to be well-informed if not well-connected with Disney World. But I think it's improper for you to slam other posters just because they voice an opinion you disagree with. You present your "opinions" as facts. But unless you can state the basis of your "opinions" as actually being facts, we should accept them as your opinion. And someone else's opinion is just as valid as your opinion. It's hard to have "an intelligent discussion" if you're the only one who can be right.

BobK/Orlando
 
It's always been touted "as a fact" today's business climate is so rough, that Wall Street is so driven, that the world is so eager to devore fluffy bunnies that Walt would have been grounded into hamburger.

That's a complete lie.

Business has changed, but it's certainly not the case The Great Depression was an easy time to start a movie studio in a garage, that World War Two really was a boon for expanding markets, and that getting capital from a bank was a simple matter of filling out a deposit slip.

In fact, today's capital sources - from venture captalists to junk bonds to hedge funds to international money markets - would have seem like impossible dream to anyone in the 1950s. Stock holders are infinetly more forgiving than Bank of America's board of directors were (for which Michael Eisner and the last ten years of his tenure will be forever grateful for).

This is not an opinion, it's simple history. It's never been easy to start a business, it's never been easy to grow a business, it's never been easy to sustain a business.

But there's this myth out in fanhood that somehow Walt had it really easy and therefore we can't hold today's company to the same standard.

That's utter and complete Billabong Sausages.

Walt got where he did because he created films people wanted to see and places people wanted to visit. Disneyland could have been as huge a flop as California Adventure is - had Disney not spent the talent, energy and imagination to make the place "magical" instead of relying on cheap marketing phrases like DCA did.

Disney's success has nothing to do with easy money - it was a gift of showmanship combined with talent to pull it off and a deep understanding what people wanted. Today's Disney, for all it's money, doesn't seem to have those qualities. And that - not the stock market - is why things are different.

Disney's current failures have nothing to do with a shortage of funds. If Disney can waste hundreds of millions of dollars on Internet fiascos, plane leases and mega-flop movies without Wall Street even saying a solitary bad word - then certainly they could have dropped an additional $20 million and given WDW a real Winnie the Pooh attraction instead of the parking lot carny version we got.

Today's Disney remarks off-handledy that they have to spend one billion dollars just to begin to fix California Adventure and Wall Street writes that off as nothing. Can you imagine what would have happened to Walt if he went back to Bank of America's board and said "sure, Disneyland has attracted less than 20% of the people we anticpated over the last five years, but just give me more money than I spent originally and things will be fine"?

Granted, among fans of a company it's very tempting (if not a requirement) to ignore what really happens so that today seems all warm and fuzzy. You can't convinence a Brintey fan that's she's a complete loon, you won't get a Disney fanboi or fanprincess to say Monsters Inc. Laugh Floor is pretty sad for a company that at one time created 'The Haunted Mansion'.

There are plenty of fan sites on the Internet were the past is forgotten and today is all joy and rainbows. The DIS Boards is one of the few that (sometimes) grows beyond that into true, adult conversation. We were talking about the real reasons why a fifth theme park won't happen. It has nothing to do with Walt easy, carefree life or the evil financial analyst devils that crush all of Bob Iger's dreams. Instead there are real business decisions made by real people. That's what we should be talking about, not spreading falsehoods about times past.
 
It's hard to have "an intelligent discussion" if you're the only one who can be right.

It's taken me 24 months of beating the same dead-cat (rat? mouse?) to come to the same conclusion.

Adult conversations rarely involve name-calling or put downs. That seems to the trend on this board... Unless you agree with some folk, you're just flat out wrong.

You can have your opinion on Walt Disney's business skills and I can have mine. The skills required to do what he did when he did it.. in my opinion are very different from those to do what needs to be done TODAY. Showmanship is sorely missing from some aspects of the Walt Disney Company today in my opinion.. But on this board.. it's missing from ALL aspects of the company.. all hope is lost..

The other side of the arguments here appear to be something like "everything is terrible" .. and if anyone DARES point out that not "EVERYTHING" is terrible you label them a fanboi to further discredit any meaningful discussion.

I appreciate your posts A/V - REALLY I do.. you frequently have an insight and perspective that is a pleasure to read (even if I don't completely agree with every point , everytime) .. and I enjoy meaningful conversation back and forth

But it's impossible to have that adult conversation on this board without being called names and put down.. makes it hard not to get personal in return.

There is no back and forth in these discussions, therefore they are not meaningful, but just spiteful and mean.

Forget it - y'all can fight amongst yourselves. Pat yourself on the back, you've beaten another 'fanboi' into staying away from your threads!

Knox
 
Just because an opinion exists does not make it valid.

If you have a different view of Walt's business skill, or can show that building a theme park in dramatically more difficult today than fifty years ago - then please state them. That forms the basis of a discussion.

But to demand that everyone not challenge your opinion or agrees that your assertions are just as valid as anything else - simply because that's what you believe - is exactly the same thing you are slamming others for. It really is "my way or the highway" - choosing to run away rather than defending what you say.

If I'm wrong, tell me how I am wrong. I didn't come to these conclusions overnight, nor are they fixed in stone.
 
One problem with taking away the clubs from PI is that PI has pretty much destroyed most of the privately owned clubs in Orlando. It was too much to compete with Disney as the concept and price of PI is very appealing.

I used to have an annual pass to PI so I could attend AC. The regulars got all snarky about the change in rules and I realized what a bunch of babies they were. I had seen the show too many times at that point. I ended up not renewing due to all of these factors.

I think Disney should have stuck to keeping a couple of the dance clubs 21 and up but allow minors to go dance in some of them as done in the past.
 
One problem with taking away the clubs from PI is that PI has pretty much destroyed most of the privately owned clubs in Orlando. It was too much to compete with Disney as the concept and price of PI is very appealing.

PI did probably put a lot of clubs out of business; I think it's undisputed that they put Church Street Station out of business. But Orlando is considerably bigger now and downtown has an incredible array of clubs that are thriving.
I think there are at least 2-3 new clubs in the I-Drive area that can siphon off guests on some nights. (Destiny is incredible!) For some PI is just too far away and the PI entry fee is steep by anyone's standards. The continued reduction in the number of clubs included in the ticket price doesn't help either.

I think Disney should have stuck to keeping a couple of the dance clubs 21 and up but allow minors to go dance in some of them as done in the past.

I respectfully disagree with this. Clearly the clubs that allowed 18-20 was attracting too many teens just hanging around and that was scaring away other guests. With the island open now to pedestrian traffic (and unlikely to ever go back to being a closed island) they can't have people hanging around. Shop in the stores and restaurants (with more coming) but otherwise please move along.

BobK/Orlando
 
I have been to clubs in Atlanta that cost me as much as PI does so while it is over priced it is still a somewhat better deal than one club for that price. I guess it all depends on what you are used to and so forth.

I am glad to hear we are getting some real clubs again in Downtown Orlando. It is one of the things Orlando needs. I have not been to a club down there in a while.

As for teens at the clubs, Disney is Disney and it caters to families. So yes it proposes a problem but if the parents are expected to stay with their kids at all times perhaps it would not be as much trouble.
 
Rumor heard last night at PI was that the site of Rock'n'Roll Beach club was going to possibly be the future site of a Lucky Strike Bowling alley. Lucky Strike is a combination bowling alley, lounge, restaurant and art gallery, per their website: http://www.bowlluckystrike.com/

Tampa's Channelside entertainment area has a similar bowling operation but it's called Splitsville, not Lucky Strike. I could see locals doing an outing to one of these luxury bowling alleys but would tourists really want to go bowling on their holiday?

I want to stress this was just a rumor like all the others. We'll see.

BobK/Orlando
 
Hard to say. I know they play mini-golf, so maybe bowling isn't much of a jump. Would be a rainy day haven, if nothing else.
 
it seems strange to me that the only other place that doesn't close it's doors after 10 are the two clubs at boardwalk. i know disney is for families but if you continue to close venues that adults like,( and they are the ones with the money after all.) why would anyone want to return? I would think especially with dvc they would be clamouring for something adult oriented. again disney is being shortsided, you need more than restaurants in order to please adults. and tearing down the building will cost almost as much as it would to fix the roof.
 
in all honesty to us from the uk PI has allways been a disapointment.Most of our major towns have clubs and bars drink,til 4am and 18+.there is a lot of disapointment when we go over there to PI.even our local high street has more bars,pubs and resturernts abiet not on disneys scale,but then again PI is not what we go to disney for.if it was we would go bedindorm, Ibiza or the greek islands and party 24/7
Paulh
 


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