Plans have been filed for DVC expansion at Caribbean Beach Resort

[lockedoutlogic]

So maybe DVC IS a go then ?

In 2012, our first of a consistent string of trips over the last 5 years. I believe, we paid, $150 / night, for a King water view at CSR, AND we got free dining. We are Canadian, so not sure if that was a Canadian Deal, we booked through CAA (AAA). When we look at what a moderate costs now, dang, glad we bought into DVC.

That doesn't make a dvc there a "good" idea...merely the advancement in a line of "bad" ideas...

What madonna ...and I...are delicately stating is that the moderates - as currently constructed - don't meet the ethos of the dvc 25 year program.

They were sold/marketed as the high rate hotels...just prepaid/financed by the core upper middle clientele.

Right or wrong...that's the tale.

That "old guard"...i would venture...doesn't want to go "down" the chart. The vast majority.

So if disney now eliminate that pricing line...it could really affect the membership going forward and could effect the amount of additional money spent...which is exactly why it was "deluxe" in the first place. It's more Than just the rooms. A lot more.

And if they continue to turn the screws on hotel price...they've will end up with "good" high price places and "bad" high price places...that's why the classes where there in the first place: to avoid this.

The hotels will begin to empty out form the bottom up as the have from the top down (which is what the DVC's conversion is trying to correct)

$700 pop, $800 Coronado, $900 poly?

Think any of those rooms will be booked?

This is complicated...and dangerous. Caribbean doesn't cut it. I'm not even sure a canal with elsa on the boat doing vaudeville will make it valid.

 

[DisFanDad]

That doesn't make a dvc there a "good" idea...merely the advancement in a line of "bad" ideas...

What madonna ...and I...are delicately stating is that the moderates - as currently constructed - don't meet the ethos of the dvc 25 year program.

They were sold/marketed as the high rate hotels...just prepaid/financed by the core upper middle clientele.

Right or wrong...that's the tale.

That "old guard"...i would venture...doesn't want to go "down" the chart. The vast majority.

So if disney now eliminate that pricing line...it could really affect the membership going forward and could effect the amount of additional money spent...which is exactly why it was "deluxe" in the first place. It's more Than just the rooms. A lot more.

And if they continue to turn the screws on hotel price...they've will end up with "good" high price places and "bad" high price places...that's why the classes where there in the first place: to avoid this.

The hotels will begin to empty out form the bottom up as the have from the top down (which is what the DVC's conversion is trying to correct)

$700 pop, $800 Coronado, $900 poly?

Think any of those rooms will be booked?

This is complicated...and dangerous. Caribbean doesn't cut it. I'm not even sure a canal with elsa on the boat doing vaudeville will make it valid.

Oh yes, I actually get this completely. Its why I suggested the only way for this to be DVC is for WDW it actually sink enough cash into this to make it a true deluxe level experience, anything else breaks the DVC model.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Oh yes, I actually get this completely. Its why I suggested the only way for this to be DVC is for WDW it actually sink enough cash into this to make it a true deluxe level experience, anything else breaks the DVC model.

Ok...i feel that.

Here's the problem: dvc doesn't go overhead heavy in construction...that's why they mooch off of old hotels/services.

This would be the first "standalone" dvc construction (at wdw...and aulani only blew the budget by a cool billion or so) since half of Boardwalk in the the early 90's...in a way...If they want to "bring it up" to that level.

That's a bit pricey.

 

[LaidBackDad]

That doesn't make a dvc there a "good" idea...merely the advancement in a line of "bad" ideas...

What madonna ...and I...are delicately stating is that the moderates - as currently constructed - don't meet the ethos of the dvc 25 year program.

They were sold/marketed as the high rate hotels...just prepaid/financed by the core upper middle clientele.

Right or wrong...that's the tale.

That "old guard"...i would venture...doesn't want to go "down" the chart. The vast majority.

So if disney now eliminate that pricing line...it could really affect the membership going forward and could effect the amount of additional money spent...which is exactly why it was "deluxe" in the first place. It's more Than just the rooms. A lot more.

And if they continue to turn the screws on hotel price...they've will end up with "good" high price places and "bad" high price places...that's why the classes where there in the first place: to avoid this.

The hotels will begin to empty out form the bottom up as the have from the top down (which is what the DVC's conversion is trying to correct)

$700 pop, $800 Coronado, $900 poly?

Think any of those rooms will be booked?

This is complicated...and dangerous. Caribbean doesn't cut it. I'm not even sure a canal with elsa on the boat doing vaudeville will make it valid.

There are a number of problems in this position:

The first of which is this whole deluxe / mod. / value classification system. I don't even know what they really mean. Disney doesn't even give any definition. The most basic deliminator is price. Other than that, what amenities make one resort better than another? Are SSR and OKW really deluxe? I would argue that brand new tower rooms and immediate park access make a CBR DVC a lot more "deluxe" than those 2 ever were. What about Aulani, HH, and VB? What about AKL and WL. A lot of people consider those sub-deluxe? Point is, there is already a sort of tier system within the DVC system, it just isn't named and it is broken down by points per night (price) already. The real question is where will this CBR DVR fit on the point scale. My guess is they are going to add enough amenities to charge more than BC. CBR DVC will be the new "deluxe" resort in the Epcot area. Guest won't even think about the plebs next door in the now highly popular and expensive moderate rooms. Maybe CBR even gets reclassified as a "deluxe resort" as it's layout isn't all that dissimilar to OKW and its location is a lot better if it gets better access to the parks. I just don't see it as a huge downgrade especially if it gets the expected new amenities.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Values: only exterior entry, basic pool design with non water based theming (nonfunctional), no pool slides, integrated front desk, bell (no true), guest services, no table service restaurants, no direct access to guest areas, no spa facilities, no hot tubs, transportation by bus only, integrated gift shop/quickserve in central area. Pizza delivery only. One pool bar. No onsite recreation (marinas, basketball courts, etc)

Moderate: exterior entry, bell services, larger layouts/designs, limited table service restaurants, multiple bars, one hot tub (generally) per hotel, more themed pools with slide at main, typically more quiet pools, pizza deliver, some recreation available onsite, some limited expanded transportation (boat access via port) - but no direct access to guest areas otherwise, limited spa or business/convention services. Small workout room. Theming generally better quality (the neon cutouts at values aren't unintentional) than values.

"Home away from home": i.e Saratoga and old key west. Phase out subcategory that generally aligns with deluxe.

Deluxe: uniform, higher quality theming/details, large theme pool areas with recreation and/or food service, all interior entry rooms, valet parking, wedding planners/convention centers onsite, direct access to guest areas not by bus (monorail, boat, walking path)...akl a logistical exception, a frikkkn zoo at one, spa spa services available, multiple table service options, more/better lounges and bars, room service (24 hour at convention hotels), "concierge" (a joke but whatever), private tours and activities available, childcare centers, usually a full health club, more specialty shopping, hair/beauty available at some, multiple hot tubs, community halls at DVC's (so all of them now basically), large lobby/concourse areas, character dining onsite, signature dining onsite (all except poly where you can walk to 3 and have the luau available)

Just to name a few...

Now...do I think all that stuff is worth 2 or 3 times the price? No...but that is the structure and it's been that way with little variation since Caribbean and the grand Floridian opened in October of '88...and they have stuck to it.

Only difference is the disparity in pricing is much higher because they have raise them at a ridiculous rate. Part of that is to DETERMINE THE PRICING OF DVC. That key here.

I'll throw my fun fact here: 2002 cheapest rack at wildwness lodge: $119
2015: $350

 

[lockedoutlogic]

There are a number of problems in this position:

The first of which is this whole deluxe / mod. / value classification system. I don't even know what they really mean. Disney doesn't even give any definition. The most basic deliminator is price. Other than that, what amenities make one resort better than another? Are SSR and OKW really deluxe? I would argue that brand new tower rooms and immediate park access make a CBR DVC a lot more "deluxe" than those 2 ever were. What about Aulani, HH, and VB? What about AKL and WL. A lot of people consider those sub-deluxe? Point is, there is already a sort of tier system within the DVC system, it just isn't named and it is broken down by points per night (price) already. The real question is where will this CBR DVR fit on the point scale. My guess is they are going to add enough amenities to charge more than BC. CBR DVC will be the new "deluxe" resort in the Epcot area. Guest won't even think about the plebs next door in the now highly popular and expensive moderate rooms. Maybe CBR even gets reclassified as a "deluxe resort" as it's layout isn't all that dissimilar to OKW and its location is a lot better if it gets better access to the parks. I just don't see it as a huge downgrade especially if it gets the expected new amenities.

Wow...I've never seen anyone with such a low opinion of beach club/high opinon of the Caribbean property before...

I'll consider your points...but you got me head scratching here...

 

[LaidBackDad]

Wow...I've never seen anyone with such a low opinion of beach club/high opinon of the Caribbean property before...

I'll consider your points...but you got me head scratching here...

On the contrary, I love BC and I realize CBR has it's drawbacks currently; but, that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about a future CBR DVC. I'm just saying a brand new tower room with views of Illuminations and / or Star Wars fireworks is bound to cost a few more points than the one at the 20 year old BC.

 

[Sweettears]

Unfortunately in the absence of additional information the true intention probably won't be known for some time.

My last thought is upscale (deluxe lite?) with views and amenities. I.e. Restaurant,pools etc... This assumes no park access.

However I can see the DVC angle as well but I think that's will require park access. Perhaps with the semi announced major changes to Epcot it might include restructuring the off stage areas to allow for the access.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Everybody is so enamoured with views...

I got some Florida swampland to sell you...

What happens on the back side that looks out on I-4?
(To be fair...if you had a telecope you could see vista way and then you'd really get a night time show )

...nobody wants to address the fact they don't build expensive amenities with dvc, huh?

Not Relevant?

 

[rteetz]

Everybody is so enamoured with views...

I got some Florida swampland to sell you...

What happens on the back side that looks out on I-4?
(To be fair...if you had a telecope you could see vista way and then you'd really get a night time show )

...nobody wants to address the fact they don't build expensive amenities with dvc, huh?

Not Relevant?

I don't think they do build more amenities other than a pool because Disney thinks the amenities already at the resorts are good enough.

If CBR is DVC I think work will be done to improve resort amenities at least for DVC people.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I don't think they do build more amenities other than a pool because Disney thinks the amenities already at the resorts are good enough.

If CBR is DVC I think work will be done to improve resort amenities at least for DVC people.

That would represent a "statistical anomaly" then...

Talking hundreds of new fulltime employees...but health insurance is gonna be outlawed any day now...so there's some cost savings

 

[Sweettears]

Everybody is so enamoured with views...

I got some Florida swampland to sell you...

What happens on the back side that looks out on I-4?
(To be fair...if you had a telecope you could see vista way and then you'd really get a night time show )

...nobody wants to address the fact they don't build expensive amenities with dvc, huh?

Not Relevant?

Absolutely relevant. That's why I keep saying it won't be DVC. Can't create the value at CBR.

 

[Missyrose]

An interesting thought one of the sources threw out there as being likely is this will be treated like WL in that you have the main resort and Boulder Creek villas but then you also have the separate Copper Creek Villas. This would be similar to that in you have the regular resort but then separate villas as if it were its own resort. They might share some amenities but they would be sold as separate in theory.

But does that really mean anything beyond the unit that's on the contract? Technically Jambo and Kidani are separate, so are SSR and the treehouses. But those (and presumably VWL once CC comes online), the home-resort is still just one resort for DVC purposes and they all share amenities.

 

[rteetz]

But does that really mean anything beyond the unit that's on the contract? Technically Jambo and Kidani are separate, so are SSR and the treehouses. But those (and presumably VWL once CC comes online), the home-resort is still just one resort for DVC purposes and they all share amenities.

I'm thinking more along the lines that the resort stays it's moderator level but the new build is considered deluxe. That's different than any other DVC we currently have.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm thinking more along the lines that the resort stays it's moderator level but the new build is considered deluxe. That's different than any other DVC we currently have.

How they gonna pull that off?

That's the #1 question when it comes to this...and that's so problematic that you can never get to the #2 question...

 

[Madonna3]

PS didn't mean "missed the point completely" to sound harsh. I understood what you were saying.

No harm. I didn't take it wrong.

 

[LaidBackDad]

I'm thinking more along the lines that the resort stays it's moderator level but the new build is considered deluxe. That's different than any other DVC we currently have.

I'm just going off of @lockedoutlogics definitions of what a "deluxe resort" offers; if the new addition offers a better hot tub and maybe spa / wedding services then technically CBR would meet that definition of a deluxe resort. I actually agree with what you are saying. It would be hard to justify deluxe rates for the current rooms at CBR even with park access. I keep harping on the location of CBR, it can't be ignored. The only reason CBR isn't considered a deluxe now is because of the poor park access which is easily and cheaply fixed. No way in today's Disney they build anything less than deluxe accommodations in such a premium location. Hate to say it, but that basically rules out anything but DVC. DVC builds amenities with their resorts all the time. The stand alone DVC's like Aulani have all of their own amenities. No reason they wouldn't add them at CBR.

 

[dlavender]

What happens on the back side that looks out on I-4?
(To be fair...if you had a telecope you could see vista way and then you'd really get a night time show )

That's a great point.

Can't sell it as "not really deluxe but we are gonna call it that since you have a view of the backside of the International Gateway, but half of you don't".......

The only idea that makes sense is what was brought up here, that if this is going to be DVC, they will have to build a whole new resort and separate from CBR.

The flip to that, can they really still do that with bus as the only transportation option? They do it at OKW and SSR I suppose, but at least they have a ride or walk to the TRex restaurant.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm just going off of @lockedoutlogics definitions of what a "deluxe resort" offers; if the new addition offers a better hot tub and maybe spa / wedding services then technically CBR would meet that definition of a deluxe resort. I actually agree with what you are saying. It would be hard to justify deluxe rates for the current rooms at CBR even with park access. I keep harping on the location of CBR, it can't be ignored. The only reason CBR isn't considered a deluxe now is because of the poor park access which is easily and cheaply fixed. No way in today's Disney they build anything less than deluxe accommodations in such a premium location. Hate to say it, but that basically rules out anything but DVC. DVC builds amenities with their resorts all the time. The stand alone DVC's like Aulani have all of their own amenities. No reason they wouldn't add them at CBR.

Nah...you misfired on this one...especially the line above.

Caribbean is nowhere close to as nice as any of the deluxes...not only the visual look, but the feel/experience.

It is the worst overall quality of the 4 moderates...so where are you basing your assumptions in?

It's not close...at all. Trust me...I know Caribbean, grand Floridian, and yacht club like the back of my hand (hint)...this isn't debatable.

And I know the "great location" is big to you...but I can't say this anymore clearly: logistically it is not a great location without massive, expensive infrastructure and ground work that does not fit the dvc operation currently.

You skimmed the list and saw the "differences" on the categories...but are not there currently to experience. It's really pronounced...it hits you the minute you get off the bus/car.

This is not a "minor" thing.

I'd like to see what happens...if they build a Bay lake tower type "meh" add on and tout views of their 20 year old fireworks at Epcot...

I'd watch for a few months before dumping my dvc...at least...

 

[sachilles]

Devil's advocate.

What prevents Disney from using this property to debut a new fractional ownership model separate from DVC? One better positioned to grab the market below what is currently offered by DVC.

They can't change any previous agreements, but they are not required to make new properties fit in to the current model.