photo taking poliy?

[Geoff_M]

Whether they have the right to do so could be debated to the end of time,...

Actually, it's pretty well defined. You are correct that in many cases you can be declared as trespassing and asked to leave by police. A prime example is a school sporting events, even though it is "public property" in the area of trespassing it is legally considered "private". However, someone in a proper position of authority must declare you to be "trespassing". This normally is someone like an AD, principal, or other similar administration figure. Likewise, you can be bounced from a youth sporting facility, but it depending on their status with the property being used. If they use private land, then it's pretty clear cut... but again, it takes someone in a recognized position of authority to get involved. If they use a "public" space like park, the terms of their rental agreement would likely dictate what happens. If the league rents the park for the event, then they likely have the authority to declare someone in "trespass". But, if they are using part of the park along with other groups at the same time, then league officials likely don't have the right to ask you to leave. For example, we have a park that used to be used for both youth soccer and football leagues at the same time... as well as boaters and swimmers. In this case, the soccer league officials would likely be powerless to tell you to "get lost".

But the hypothetical was about parents confronting the photographer, and not league officials. Parents themselves can't get you kicked out. The worst they can do is complain about you to the officials. It's up to them to decide if you're worth the hassle of kicking you out.

 

[ukcatfan]

Actually, it's pretty well defined. You are correct that in many cases you can be declared as trespassing and asked to leave by police. A prime example is a school sporting events, even though it is "public property" in the area of trespassing it is legally considered "private". However, someone in a proper position of authority must declare you to be "trespassing". This normally is someone like an AD, principal, or other similar administration figure. Likewise, you can be bounced from a youth sporting facility, but it depending on their status with the property being used. If they use private land, then it's pretty clear cut... but again, it takes someone in a recognized position of authority to get involved. If they use a "public" space like park, the terms of their rental agreement would likely dictate what happens. If the league rents the park for the event, then they likely have the authority to declare someone in "trespass". But, if they are using part of the park along with other groups at the same time, then league officials likely don't have the right to ask you to leave. For example, we have a park that used to be used for both youth soccer and football leagues at the same time... as well as boaters and swimmers.

But the hypothetical was about parents confronting the photographer, and not league officials. Parents themselves can't get you kicked out. The worst they can do is complain about you to the officials. It's up to them to decide if you're worth the hassle of kicking you out.

That sounds exactly right to me. The kicker is that the executive in power can even use ridiculous concepts as the basis for trespassing. I have known many cops my whole life and they have told me that trespassing is a catch all means to remove someone from a situation without needing to prove anything. Once you have been removed what are going to do about it even if you disagree? If they were to actually want to arrest you then they would need some proof, but to just diffuse a situation and make someone leave they do not need to prove anything. Our local mall considers it trespassing if any group of more than four under 18yo kids are stopped in the corridor talking to each other. They must stay on the move or find a place to sit down if the are five or more. It does not even matter if they have been shopping. Do they enforce it often, no, but they have it documented so they can if they want to.

 

[Geoff_M]

if it's a school event an I paid, and have a ticket, trespass would be a very interesting charge

True case in point from the same photo site I mentioned earlier... A sports photographer reported that he was at a game were a photographer in the stands was kicked out by school officials and cops. During the basketball game, some of the parents noticed that a man in the stand had a camera with a telephoto lens, but he wasn't shooting pictures of the game. What he was taking photos of was the cheerleaders. And not just cheerleaders in general, but photos of the girls in "compromising" positions. Girls leaning forward, girls doing the splits, girls bending over, etc. Parents reported the guy's behavior to school officials, and they watched him, and had him booted after they confirmed the behavior. All perfectly legal, even though the guy paid his $5 (or whatever) to get in.

 

[Geoff_M]

I have known many cops my whole life and they have told me that trespassing is a catch all means to remove someone from a situation without needing to prove anything.

Yes, but if a cop is called to defuse a situation at a ball diamond about photography and finds and parent upset about a photographer taking photos of the parent's kid (perfectly legal) and the photographer is able to satisfy the cop that his actions are benign... then I don't think the cop will necessarily accuse the photographer of being the problem and kick him off the site. As Mickey88 suggested, I think it's likely that the cop might reasonably decide that the momma/papa grizzly is the one disturbing the peace.

 

[ukcatfan]

Yes, but if a cop is called to defuse a situation at a ball diamond about photography and finds and parent upset about a photographer taking photos of the parent's kid (perfectly legal) and the photographer is able to satisfy the cop that his actions are benign... then I don't think the cop will necessarily accuse the photographer of being the problem and kick him off the site. As Mickey88 suggested, I think it's likely that the cop might reasonably decide that the momma/papa grizzly is the one disturbing the peace.

I bet 99 of 100 times nobody will get kicked out and they would just tell the photographer not to take pics of the kid the parents were concerned about. My whole point is that if they just inform the organizers and then act courteously to the questioning parent, there is most likely not going to be a disturbance. Communication is the key in most situations.

 

[MICKEY88]

True case in point from the same photo site I mentioned earlier... A sports photographer reported that he was at a game were a photographer in the stands was kicked out by school officials and cops. During the basketball game, some of the parents noticed that a man in the stand had a camera with a telephoto lens, but he wasn't shooting pictures of the game. What he was taking photos of was the cheerleaders. And not just cheerleaders in general, but photos of the girls in "compromising" positions. Girls leaning forward, girls doing the splits, girls bending over, etc. Parents reported the guy's behavior to school officials, and they watched him, and had him booted after they confirmed the behavior. All perfectly legal, even though the guy paid his $5 (or whatever) to get in.

How exactly did they confirm the behaviour, they can't confiscate the camera unless they have good reason to believe it was used in commision of a crime,,, which in PA downblouse or upskirt photographs would be a crime...

 

[ukcatfan]

This topic has actually jogged my memory. Taking this back directly to the topic, I have observed someone ask to take a pic of someone else's kid at Disney a couple times. One time it was my kid. We were back in the garden area in England practically all by ourselves when Alice showed up and spent about ten minutes walking around with my daughter. A woman near us told us how adorable she thought it was and asked if we minded if she took a few pics. We didn't mind and she took about three or four shots and thanked us. Another time it was someone that described himself as a blogger and asked if he could take some pics of a family meeting a character. They did not mind, he got his shots and went on his way. Again communication was good and everyone was happy if not even flattered that someone wanted their pic.

 

[ukcatfan]

How exactly did they confirm the behaviour, they can't confiscate the camera unless they have good reason to believe it was used in commision of a crime,,, which in PA downblouse or upskirt photographs would be a crime...

Just my thoughts, but if he was only pointing his camera at the cheerleaders even when the game action was away from them. Like I said before, if they are just going to remove him, they do not have to prove anything. They only need to gather proof if they are making an arrest and need evidence to prosecute. They can kick someone out for trespassing if they do not like his haircut. I have seen people kicked out of games for wearing opposing team clothes in the home section. At one game, they gave the guy a warning to go back to his side, but he came back and was taken out in cuffs. I found out later that they let him go once outside, but not before trying to give him a scare.

 

[Geoff_M]

How exactly did they confirm the behaviour, they can't confiscate the camera unless they have good reason to believe it was used in commision of a crime,,, which in PA downblouse or upskirt photographs would be a crime...

I looked for the thread in question, but the site's search tool isn't very good. I haven't found that one, but found one about a similar incident at Marshall University. In that case, a police officer confronted the shooter and asked to see what was on his card... and the guy complied. the police officer said 80% of the images he saw were close-ups of certain cheerleader body parts.

 

[MICKEY88]

I looked for the thread in question, but the site's search tool isn't very good. I haven't found that one, but found one about a similar incident at Marshall University. In that case, a police officer confronted the shooter and asked to see what was on his card... and the guy complied. the police officer said 80% of the images he saw were close-ups of certain cheerleader body parts.

on model mayhem there have been numerous threads about photographers and models being confronted for shooting lingerie in public, the general advice is either switch cards discreetly or simply format the card, the pics can always be recovered at home..

 

[dburg30]

You guys just go on and discuss this amongst yourselves........ Yea, while still pertains to the OP has kinda strayed a bit off center

The bottom line for me is my instinct. Like I said this has happened to us a number of times (which is why I can assure you that it is standard operating procedure at Disney). I know I sort of ask for it because of the costumes I bring for my daughter. But I will continue to trust my instincts. 9 times out of 10 it has been fine. This last time it wasn't. If it makes me uncomfortable, there is a chance it probably made my daughter uncomfortable.
So are you saying the person was a convicted sexual predator or something like that? I'm not sure what the 10th person did, other then 'look' or act a certain way?
This isn't about who has the bigger muscles and legal technicalities. This IS very much about common courtesy.
It's about both. It's about some of us making sure 'your side' understand that we arent doing anything illegal on 'our side'. Yes, politeness needs to be there for BOTH sides. And I put the ' ' around them so you understand I'm talking more about folks with the same thoughts as you, not YOU personally
How about a quick "Is this OK with you?" to the parent (if you're close enough for it to be an issue, you'll be close enough to ask....).

Honestly, and I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, but if I happen to see a picture that I think is nice and it doesnt include my family, I dont have time to ask.

 

[Geoff_M]

The bottom line for me is my instinct. Like I said this has happened to us a number of times (which is why I can assure you that it is standard operating procedure at Disney). I know I sort of ask for it because of the costumes I bring for my daughter.

I sorta blew by these comments last night because we got off on the sports tangent. I have to say that those are some very, very, nice character costumes that you've made and taken your daughter to Disney in... a lot of work, and a lot of detail. My mom has her Masters Degree in Textiles and used to do a lot of sewing, so I know the hours you've put into them. That said, you acknowledge that costumes draw a lot of attention from other guests. You're in a park with many thousands of other people, a high percentage of them carrying cameras. You can bet that a lot of them are going to see an out-of-the-ordinary dressed cute girl (often times a "mini-me") posing alongside a Disney character, and want to get a photo of the scene themselves. It's one thing if a person is invading your personal space or banging shoulders with you, but I think it's asking a lot for everyone within a given radius that wants such a photo to engage in permission seeking from you before doing so.

But I will continue to trust my instincts. 9 times out of 10 it has been fine. This last time it wasn't. If it makes me uncomfortable, there is a chance it probably made my daughter uncomfortable.

If she feels uncomfortable at all, perhaps it's because she's picking up visual clues from you and your discomfort with the situation.

As for your instinct, I can't help but point out a major disconnect in the logic of trying to protect your daughter's image from being misappropriated for less than honorable purposes. You mentioned the costumes and I wasn't sure if that was a large penguin next to a CM Mary Poppins, or it was your daughter in your avatar. I then noticed your Flikr link in your signature. I followed the link, and lo and behold there are many dozens of photos of your daughter, in the costumes, posing with Disney characters. These photos are available for anonymous downloading by anyone on the Internet. What do your instincts tell you about some of the millions of people that surf Flikr as opposed to the hundreds of park goers that may see your daughter with the characters while you're in the park in a given day? You've even helped out and tagged the photos. I did a test search on Disneyland princess names and found your daughter's photos within the first few pages. If you're really that concerned about the misappropriation of your daughter's photos, doesn't it seem like you're guarding the front door while leaving the side door wide open? Honestly.

 

[mom2rtk]

I sorta blew by these comments last night because we got off on the sports tangent. I have to say that those are some very, very, nice character costumes that you've made and taken your daughter to Disney in... a lot of work, and a lot of detail. My mom has her Masters Degree in Textiles and used to do a lot of sewing, so I know the hours you've put into them. That said, you acknowledge that costumes draw a lot of attention from other guests. You're in a park with many thousands of other people, a high percentage of them carrying cameras. You can bet that a lot of them are going to see an out-of-the-ordinary dressed cute girl (often times a "mini-me") posing alongside a Disney character, and want to get a photo of the scene themselves. It's one thing if a person is invading your personal space or banging shoulders with you, but I think it's asking a lot for everyone within a given radius that wants such a photo to engage in permission seeking from you before doing so.

If she feels uncomfortable at all, perhaps it's because she's picking up visual clues from you and your discomfort with the situation.

As for your instinct, I can't help but point out a major disconnect in the logic of trying to protect your daughter's image from being misappropriated for less than honorable purposes. You mentioned the costumes and I wasn't sure if that was a large penguin next to a CM Mary Poppins, or it was your daughter in your avatar. I then noticed your Flikr link in your signature. I followed the link, and lo and behold there are many dozens of photos of your daughter, in the costumes, posing with Disney characters. These photos are available for anonymous downloading by anyone on the Internet. What do your instincts tell you about some of the millions of people that surf Flikr as opposed to the hundreds of park goers that may see your daughter with the characters while you're in the park in a given day? You've even helped out and tagged the photos. I did a test search on Disneyland princess names and found your daughter's photos within the first few pages. If you're really that concerned about the misappropriation of your daughter's photos, doesn't it seem like you're guarding the front door while leaving the side door wide open? Honestly.

I never said anything about the images being misappropriated. I do know we're already "out there" with the images so it's a moot point. And like I said, I "get" that we're asking for it. Heck, my daughter enjoys the attention. We love the costume play, and the special interactions it gets us with the characters. I love the special pictures I get to bring home and scrapbook.

My daughter LOVED the time the Brazilian tour group asked to pose with her. And she loves to pose with other patrons. She also gets a big kick out of it when the CM's pull out their own camera and ASK politely if they can take her photo.

I think I'm just offended by the presumptuousness of some people. Like I said, a little common courtesy goes a long way. Don't get so close that I have to trip over YOU to get MY pictures.

Once you take me out of the equation though (given that we all agree we sort of ask for it) I still think taking pictures of other peoples' kids in a one on one with the characters is really not right (even though it may be legal), and is slightly intrusive. Which is why this is the ONE setting where CM's will ask you not to do it.

 

[Geoff_M]

I never said anything about the images being misappropriated.

Then what was your concern about the shooter in this case:

The bottom line for me is my instinct. ... But I will continue to trust my instincts. 9 times out of 10 it has been fine. This last time it wasn't.

You make it sound like the 10th shooter presents a threat to your daughter and your mother senses went tingly on you. If you were just saying "Hey, do you mind?!?!" when he got in front of you, that doesn't require instinct to want the guy to get out of the way. That's why I thought you were talking about nefarious characters and wanting people to ask for your approval before taking a photo.

Once you take me out of the equation though (given that we all agree we sort of ask for it) I still think taking pictures of other peoples' kids in a one on one with the characters is really not right (even though it may be legal), and is slightly intrusive.

Fair enough, I just don't understand how people can look at a character meet-n-greet out in the open in the middle of a Disney park and see some sort of expectation of privacy, or even semi-privacy, that can be intruded on by also taking a photo of it. I come home with hundreds of strangers' in my photos from each Disney trip.. some times prominently displayed, sometimes not. To me they're just "scenery". My family and I are no doubt "scenery" in some of the photos of people on the DIS.

 

[mom2rtk]

Then what was your concern about the shooter in this case:You make it sound like the 10th shooter presents a threat to your daughter and your mother senses went tingly on you. If you were just saying "Hey, do you mind?!?!" when he got in front of you, that doesn't require instinct to want the guy to get out of the way. That's why I thought you were talking about nefarious characters and wanting people to ask for your approval before taking a photo.

Well, I think it was a little of both. I didn't think that guy was a pervert or anything. But having someone crowd in THAT close was uncomfortable on many levels, and mostly just incredibly rude. I would expect anyone THAT close to ask permission, just as the CM's do. Someone walking by, I wouldn't expect to ask. Although as I said, taking us out of the equation since we are "out there", I do feel differently about it. And it depends on the location too. Out in the middle of the park with thousands of people around is one thing. Back behind a wall in Princess Fantasy Faire (similar to the Judge's Tent in Toon town) I would expect something different.

Fair enough, I just don't understand how people can look at a character meet-n-greet out in the open in the middle of a Disney park and see some sort of expectation of privacy, or even semi-privacy, that can be intruded on by also taking a photo of it. I come home with hundreds of strangers' in my photos from each Disney trip.. some times prominently displayed, sometimes not. To me they're just "scenery". My family and I are no doubt "scenery" in some of the photos of people on the DIS.

I just want to go on record saying that following this parade, I had every camera in the park confiscated!

[/url] Grand Marshalls Stars and Cars by mom2rtk, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[WDWFigment]

Well, I think it was a little of both. I didn't think that guy was a pervert or anything. But having someone crowd in THAT close was uncomfortable on many levels, and mostly just incredibly rude. I would expect anyone THAT close to ask permission, just as the CM's do. Someone walking by, I wouldn't expect to ask. Although as I said, taking us out of the equation since we are "out there", I do feel differently about it. And it depends on the location too. Out in the middle of the park with thousands of people around is one thing. Back behind a wall in Princess Fantasy Faire (similar to the Judge's Tent in Toon town) I would expect something different.






I just want to go on record saying that following this parade, I had every camera in the park confiscated!

[/url] Grand Marshalls Stars and Cars by mom2rtk, on Flickr[/IMG]

Your last comment about 'having every camera in the park confiscated' sort of goes to my thoughts on this. I am supposed to be working on a project at work right now, so I will just copy and paste our experience from my TR rather than retype it so it's completely relevant:

As we were heading towards the front, we saw Princess Tiana for the very first time ever. Seeing the insanely long line for her, we knew there was no way we’d be able to get our picture with her. Still, we wanted to get a couple of pictures of just her. As I started to take a picture, a woman moved in front of my camera. Now, what follows here is, I’m sure, going to be a divisive subject, but please bear in mind that I myself am not even sure how I feel about it. I am just soliciting feedback.

I moved and started to take another picture, when a woman positioned on the other side of the exit gate said, “excuse me, I don’t want you taking pictures of my son.” I responded that we weren’t taking pictures of her son, just the character. She said, “don’t take them while my son is there.” Not wanting any issues, we waited until she left (and to her credit, she thanked us) to take the pictures. Now, I don’t completely understand the cause for concern here, but I realize there is cause, and it’s not just limited to her. I’ve been told the same thing by Cast Members before (I must look like a creep, huh?), so I imagine there have been complaints by other parents in the past to occasion Cast Members saying this type of thing.

That said, and while I respect concerns about a child’s safety, I don’t really think this is realistic. Well, perhaps I should put that differently as I realize people can do inappropriate things with pictures: I think taking your kids to WDW is very inconsistent with having concerns of people taking pictures of your children. If you really have that concern, taking kids to WDW is a terrible idea since you can’t control every picture taken in the parks. While this mother could prevent us from taking pictures of her kid when we approached the gate and made it patently obvious that we were taking pictures, there is no way she could prevent all pictures of her kid from being taken, especially any intentionally taken in a clandestine manner. In fact, I’m sure many pictures were taken of her son that trip inadvertently, just where he happened to walk into the background of a shot someone else happened to be taking. Don’t get me wrong, I think the potential kinds of abuses people could make with pictures of children are abhorrent, but short of never letting your children go out in public, it’s not at all preventable; since it doesn’t directly cause harm to the kids, maybe it’s not worth effort as a parent to protect-against. Does what I’m writing here make sense, or is this unreasonable on my part? Am I just bitter because I had to wait to take my picture. I really don’t think so, but I’m also not a parent, so perhaps I’m only seeing this from my perspective. I really am not sure of what to think.

 

[Poohbear5]

Oh my goodness!! In raising three kids including very identical twins, I've had many strangers start up conversations. It would never have occurred to me to "get freaked out" if they were photographing a character or landmark with my kids in the photo!

Is there a big chance the average tourist at Disney is going to use my kids' photo for evil doings??

Yes, we need to caution our kids against bad guys and train them appropriately to deal with situations (always stay with a buddy, what to do and where to seek help if something doesn't feel right..).

But flipping out over another tourist getting your child in a photo is going to make for one uptight, distrustful kid!
We're on vacation people! Relax! Go with the flow!

 

[MOmousefan]

I guess the "Is This You" thread might make some people mad.