Pete's Comments about Tunisia

[*NikkiBell*]

I found the commentary on this country very interesting. I know little about it and looked a few things up as I was appalled that Yvette and other women had to change to visit the area. Of course, Wikipedia is not the most credible source, but I found this information wild...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia

Human Rights

The parliament has repeatedly passed laws that make Tunisia appear democratic to outsiders. Since 1987 Tunisia has formally reformed its political system several times, abolishing life presidency and opening up the parliament to opposition parties. The President's official speeches are full of references to the importance of democracy and freedom of speech.[50] According to Amnesty International, however, "the Tunisian government is misleading the world as it conveys a positive image of the human rights situation in the country while abuses by its security forces continue unabated and are committed with impunity".[51] The result is a sense of depression among the thinking classes and Tunisians abroad.[52][53] The regime has been growing increasingly repressive even after the complete defeat of Islamist extremists in the early 90's.[54][55]

Censorship in Tunisia is severe. In practice no public criticism of the regime is tolerated and all direct protest is severely suppressed and does not get reported in the media as was the case with the public demonstrations against nepotism and corruption in 'Redayef' near the city of Gafsa, in the country's south, in 2008.[7][56] Self-censorship is widespread with people fearing the police which is present everywhere and frequently stops and searches individuals and vehicles - often demanding small amounts of bribe money to make up for their meagre salaries. There is a much encouraged and apparently organised personality cult. Daily newspapers run eulogistic articles praising the President whose picture graces the first page on a daily basis, often alongside similar articles and pictures of his wife, Leila.[57] Large pictures of President Ben Ali and 'spontaneously' erected banners praising him are found on all public buildings and majors streets.[58][59][60][61][62] The country's latest built airport was also named after President Ben Ali.[63]

Internet censorship is severe with banned sites including YouTube. Reporters without borders includes Tunisia in the country list of 'Enemies of the Internet' together with North Korea, Saudi Arabia and Turkmenistan.[64][65] In January 2010 US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton mentioned Tunisia and China as the two countries with the greatest internet censorship.[66] Nevertheless the internet has witnessed a considerable development with more than 1.1 million users and hundreds of internet cafes, known as ‘publinet.’ This is primarily related to the widespread unemployment and lack of democracy and opportunities resulting in millions of bored unemployed graduates.[67] Hundreds of thousands of young men avoid compulsory conscription and live with the constant fear of arrest although it appears that the police only go after them in certain times of the year only (the 'raffle') and often let them go if a sufficient bribe is paid.[68] Thousands of unemployed young men attempt illegal immigration to Europe by sea and often die in the process. Accusations have been made the regime has become a kleptocracy with corrupt members of the Trabelsi family, most notably in the cases of Imed Trabelsi and Belhassen Trabelsi, controlling much of the business sector in the country.[69] In its January/February 2008 issue, the Foreign Policy Magazine reported that Tunisia's First Lady had been using the 737 Boeing Business Jet[70] of the government to make "unofficial visits" to European Fashion Capitals, such as Milan, Paris and Geneva. The report mentioned that the trips are not on the official travel itinerary. Bloggers tracked the official airplane on spotting webpages as Airliners.net. The first lady has been described as a shopaholic.[71][72] Recently Tunisia refused a French request for the extradition of two of the President's nephews, from Leila's side, who are accused by the French State prosecutor of having stolen two mega-yachts from a French marina.[73] Rumours have been circulating that Ben Ali's son-in-law Sakher al-Materi (the husband of Zine and Leila's daughter Nessrine) is being primed to eventually take over the country. As of October 2009, he has used family privileges and connections to create a place for himself in the country's economy, and is making his political debut.[74]

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

So the real question is why does DCL even stop here on the Med cruises? I'd be boycotting.
Not that I could afford to go anyway.

 

[FireDancer]

I haven't listened to the podcast yet but know a bit about Tunisia. Tunisia, as far as web censorship goes, is right up there with Iran and China in their restrictive nature. Their government is also very intertwined with their religion and are very conservative. Tunisia, Morocco, and Tanzania (to climb Kilimanjaro) are the three countries I want to visit most in Africa so I've done a lot of the research on traveling there. I know all of this and will make sure to abide by the rules when I am there even if I disagree with them.

As much as I think censorship is appalling (as the good Libertarian I am) and the way women are treated in much of the Muslim world equally appalling it is their country and when there you have to abide by their rules. I am not one to try and force our western values on the rest of the world in the same way I don't want anyone else to come into our country and tell us the way we do something is not as good as the way they do someting. As sovereign nations they have to be free to govern themselves and their people as they see fit. If the people living there want to change it, there is always revolution.

So the real question is why does DCL even stop here on the Med cruises? I'd be boycotting.
Not that I could afford to go anyway.

There are a lot of great historical sights to see in Tunisia. Some of the oldest civilizations on Earth were in Tunisia (the Phoenicians come to mind) and there are some very well preserved ruins. Anyone opposed to the country enough morally to boycott is of course free to stay on the ship but when you travel the world you have to abide by the rules of the country you are visiting. This means abiding but the censorship laws in places like China, the dress codes (for lack of a better word) in much of the Muslim world, and for the love of God don't vandalize anything in Singapore.

 

[luke]

Gotta agree with Frank here, when in Rome and all that...

The world is a big, varied, sometimes scary place. But therein also lies the beauty of the world, travel broadens the mind and whether we 'agree' or 'disagree' (the 's are because it's such a subjective thing) with how countries uphold their cultures, traditions or religions (up to a point I guess) is not really our call

 

[wishspirit]

As a feminist and a keen supporter of women's rights I find this a hard question to answer.

Women should be allowed to make their own choices in life, they should be allowed to have the same educational and career opportunities as men. However if a woman chooses to be covered up, if being key, then she should be allowed to without fear or harassment, and vice versa.

I also believe that we should try and be culturally sensitive to certain aspects. I understand Yvett being upset that Disney had to tell her to get changed, however if that keeps her safer and more accepted in a culture that does not appreciate arms being shown, then we have to try our best to adapt. We expect the same of people travelling to our country that they try and stick to our cultural norms.

However when issues about human riots violations come into play, there are always big problems. Then again, people in glass houses, we have certain pieces of legislation in place in the UK which could be seen as a violation of human rights (trial without jury, 40 day holding for terror suspects, removal of internet for illegal downloading). I know there are other issues which could be considered against human rights in the US also. These may not be to the same extremes as other countries, but they are still there.

The western world have a way of believing we are the civilised nations and that all other countries are working towards becoming like us. This is simply not true, and we should be more accepting that not all cultures are the same.

 

[BeamsofLight]

I have to agree with the above 'when in Rome' (or, in this case, Tunisia) comments; I think that's part of being a world traveler and something you have to take into account when you decide if you feel comfortable going somewhere or not. There are some interesting parts of the world I'll probably never see because I won't give the regime in power my money. I can live with that.

That said, I was surprised by what Pete said about Disney's lack of preparation when it came to informing people what would be expected of them leaving the ship. Assuming he and Walter remembered correctly, if all that was said was "Dress modestly", that seems like they left a pretty wide margin of error for people to fall into. Modestly to one is inappropriate to someone else and, by and large, I'm thinking modestly by Tunisian standards would be very different than modestly to most of the Disney Cruise Line passenger population. Seems like it would have saved a lot of trouble if they'd been explicit about "Keep your arms covered", etc. I found that lack of foresight on their part peculiar.

 

[FireDancer]

I have to agree with the above 'when in Rome' (or, in this case, Tunisia) comments; I think that's part of being a world traveler and something you have to take into account when you decide if you feel comfortable going somewhere or not. There are some interesting parts of the world I'll probably never see because I won't give the regime in power my money. I can live with that.

That said, I was surprised by what Pete said about Disney's lack of preparation when it came to informing people what would be expected of them leaving the ship. Assuming he and Walter remembered correctly, if all that was said was "Dress modestly", that seems like they left a pretty wide margin of error for people to fall into. Modestly to one is inappropriate to someone else and, by and large, I'm thinking modestly by Tunisian standards would be very different than modestly to most of the Disney Cruise Line passenger population. Seems like it would have saved a lot of trouble if they'd been explicit about "Keep your arms covered", etc. I found that lack of foresight on their part peculiar.

I can only think that Disney assumed that any traveler did some research about their ports ahead of time, and their info was merely a supplement. I can only speak for myself but when I travel anywhere I make sure to exhaustively research the customs and expectations of the country in question. I make sure I memorize how to say in the native language that I am a United States citizen and would like to see my consulate, just in case I have to. Another important thing to check is if the country you are going to is a signor of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. It is available in full text in the language of all signors. I made sure when I went to Italy that I had the entire document in both Italian and English printed out and with me just in case I needed it. If all goes well and I go to Germany next year I will make sure I have the same document in English, German, and French.

Best to leave nothing to chance when you are going to a country where you are unsure of the laws and customs.

 

[BeamsofLight]

I can only think that Disney assumed that any traveler did some research about their ports ahead of time, and their info was merely a supplement. [...] Best to leave nothing to chance when you are going to a country where you are unsure of the laws and customs.

I agree, and I'd prepare similarly and encourage others to do likewise so that they don't need to rely on Disney not to drop the ball.

But you're still kind of emphasizing my point by using the word 'assume', there. I don't think Disney should have assumed anything about it, given the extent of the inconvenience it apparently caused for (some of) their guests, and their claims to excellent customer service. Unless they truly didn't realize it would be a problem.

In which case I guess they should have done their research, too.

 

[aspen37]

As a woman I wouldn't feel comfortable getting off the ship. I don't want to end up on the TV show "Locked up Abroad".

 

[Tink rules]

Mom has already decided to stay on the ship - I will see how I feel about it closer to the trip.

 

[WaltD4Me]

I'm curious as to the reason Disney asked Yvette to change? Was it just for her safety or because she might be arrested? If it's the latter, I understand the "when in Rome" thing, but I think if Tunisa wants the tourist trade then I think it should be a bit more accomodating to the those who want to visit.

 

[disneyholic family]

I can only think that Disney assumed that any traveler did some research about their ports ahead of time, and their info was merely a supplement.

that's a very stupid assumption for disney to make, if that's what they in fact assumed...
while i always know where i'm headed and what is expected in the country i'm visiting, i would never assume that people do that sort of research..
especially on a cruise ship, where so much is taken care of for you...

i would expect a tour company/cruise line to issue very explicit instructions when visiting a place where the requirements are so different..

however, i have a feeling that disney didn't 'assume' anything..
rather it was an oversight on their part...
they didn't take care of the details...
in other words, they dropped the ball on this one...

 

[wishspirit]

I'm curious as to the reason Disney asked Yvette to change? Was it just for her safety or because she might be arrested? If it's the latter, I understand the "when in Rome" thing, but I think if Tunisa wants the tourist trade then I think it should be a bit more accomodating to the those who want to visit.

I don't think it is a case of accommodating. It is fundamental to their beliefs that women don't show a lot of skin, and by not at least trying to take into account their beliefs you are making yourself a target for trouble.

If tourists kept coming to your country and outwardly flaunting that they thought nothing for your religious beliefs, I think you would get a bit upset too. Especially since the remedy is fairly simple.

 

[ToddyLu]

This is why DH refuses to take a cruise, even Disney. Flying under a foreign flag and all. Which is a whole other thread probably....after Katrina as a city fireman he had to inspect the cruise ship at the local large shipbuilder where it was docked. Before boarding the boat he had to give them his Driver's license...then got it back once off.

 

[Tinkerkell123]

I think the thing that surprised me the most was the Tunisian officials telling Disney to send a man the next time they were in port for the "check out" (or what ever you call it when they clear the ship to leave) process instead of a woman. I mean, you would think Tunisia would appreciate and want the business/money a Disney cruise would bring in. Why not a little give on Tunisia's part?

 

[CastawayJP]

Funny... They will send back a female to put a shirt on with sleeves, but they will allow bikinis on the beaches... Something should be said for consistency!

 

[thatslygirl]

It's strange, but I finished listening to the podcast today and was having a chat today with another hotel colleague who was from Morocco. We were talking about different places we've been. He told me that Tunisia is the most visited country for European tourists in Africa, followed by Morocco. I asked him if it was a safe country to visit, and he assured me it was--even told me they have many people of different faiths living together and everyone is very friendly.

It was interesting to get his perspective. I have no interest in visiting Tunisia but would love to visit Morocco someday.

 

[Becx N Gav]

That said, I was surprised by what Pete said about Disney's lack of preparation when it came to informing people what would be expected of them leaving the ship. Assuming he and Walter remembered correctly, if all that was said was "Dress modestly", that seems like they left a pretty wide margin of error for people to fall into. Modestly to one is inappropriate to someone else and, by and large, I'm thinking modestly by Tunisian standards would be very different than modestly to most of the Disney Cruise Line passenger population. Seems like it would have saved a lot of trouble if they'd been explicit about "Keep your arms covered", etc. I found that lack of foresight on their part peculiar.

Disney only announced to dress moderately that morning - in all the other excursions that included or might include visiting churches/cathedrals they mentioned everyone should cover their shoulders and knees (although they let one girl into St Peter's Basillica with a rather short skirt on, I was waiting for her to be denied entry ) - so I think they should have added that as a Muslim country women should dress moderately - which I had assumed anyway.

I'm curious as to the reason Disney asked Yvette to change? Was it just for her safety or because she might be arrested? If it's the latter, I understand the "when in Rome" thing, but I think if Tunisa wants the tourist trade then I think it should be a bit more accomodating to the those who want to visit.

I think when visiting a country people should be aware of local cultures and customs - in many places in Europe it is acceptable/normal to sun bath topless/naked on public beaches (not just specific ones) but in the UK you would probably get at least a warning if you were not on a nudist beach. As with covering your shoulders and knees, to my knowledge churches in this country (mainly protestant/Church of England) do not have such a dress code. Some of these differences can be subtle but some are quite drastic - in my opinion it's up to you if you want to visit but you should respect the place you are going to.

Personally I think Disney should have made it much clearer that as Tunisia is a Muslim country that certain ways of dressing are appropriate, and they should have had this on their main information page on the website AND in the booklet you get sent.

I didn't really care too much for the country from what I saw but I didn't expect to fall in love with it. It was a good experience and it would not put me off going to somewhere similar if there was something I wanted to see.

Going back to Nikkibells post from what I saw about half the women were covered (legs, arms and head scarf - although some were wearing the scarf more like a winter scarf) half were dressed as we 'westerners' would be but again fairly covered up (jeans, longer sleeves and high neck lines) - I guess it may have been cold to them? In fact I didn't find the dress much different to the UK where you see a lot of Muslim people.
Our tour guide said education was available to everyone, up to University level which suprised me. He mentioned women had a lot more rights than in the past and despite being Muslim they were more 'free' than other Muslim countries. I didn't see many women on their own - groups of school age girls/young women, 20-30 somethings at bus stops, maybe a few older women walking about.

 

[roomthreeseventeen]

It's strange, but I finished listening to the podcast today and was having a chat today with another hotel colleague who was from Morocco. We were talking about different places we've been. He told me that Tunisia is the most visited country for European tourists in Africa, followed by Morocco. I asked him if it was a safe country to visit, and he assured me it was--even told me they have many people of different faiths living together and everyone is very friendly.

It was interesting to get his perspective. I have no interest in visiting Tunisia but would love to visit Morocco someday.

Tunisia is one of the countries I would MOST want to visit on this cruise. I think it's common knowledge to many Europeans that Tunisia is a Muslim country, and that their "dress code" should always be followed, for the sake of respecting the people that live there. Disney should have absolutely been more clear about what was expected.

 

[Yvet]

What happened for us:
We checked the excursion guide that you can pick up at the excursion desk.
They use symbols for telling you if there is a dress code for the particulair excursion.
For all the excursion where a dress code was needed there was a little picture of a tux.

The day before we arrived in Tunis i especially checked the excursion guide, no dress code needed, no tux symbol stated anywhere.
I know it's an islamic country and i respect that. I have visit other islamic countries and i have friends that visit those countries and you have to dress appropriate.
Appropriate means that you wear clothes that don't make you look like the cheapest h**ker on a corner, sleeveless tops are worn by many woman that live there and are practicing muslims.
The same with the headscarfs, the older woman wear them and sometimes with an open face structure sometimes more covered, but the majority of the younger woman don't wear headscarfs at all and dress more western.
Especially in the cities the woman are wearing clothes that show more of their body.

So i thought because my previous experiences and because DCL didn't put a dress code on their excursions i was okay with wearing a sleeveless top.
Also Disney gave out some Visa forms that you need to have filled out before you leave the ship, this a group visas and the form stated that this group visa is for people that travel without passports, so my assumption was that we don't needed our passports and that we were okay with our copy of identification (in our case a copy of our passports). Disney didn't announced anything about this.

We arrived at the designated area for our excursion and were told there that we needed our real passports and that copies weren't allowed.
So Emiel run down to get our passports.
Then they told me that i couldn't wear a sleeveless shirt, i asked them why not, i told them that the excursion booklet said nothing about a dress code and their responce was: it's Tunesia.....
After this i run down and changed my clothes.

Then like 15 minutes later they made an announcement about the fact that you need your passport and you needed to dress modestly.
They never told you that modestly was be dressed with the knees and shoulders covered.

Personally i didn't liked it that it wasn't made clear to the public that (parts of) Tunesia has a dress code.
But i really hate the fact that Tunesia just refuse to accept woman in general.
What they did to the female officer was just out of line......
And for me that is the reason to say to these kind of countries take it or leave it but you have to deal with us western people that are respecting females and treat them the same a males. You have to respect that and if you don't (like Tunesia does) then no Disney Cruise Line for Tunesia.

I'm curious as to the reason Disney asked Yvette to change? Was it just for her safety or because she might be arrested?

I would have never been arrested for wearing a sleeveless top.
It's much more simple: i probably would have been denied access into Tunesia.
Why do you need to dress a certain way?? I can't answer that question because in Tunesia at the beaches the people are walking less dressed around the city and the beach and everywhere else then i was wearing that day.

Funny... They will send back a female to put a shirt on with sleeves, but they will allow bikinis on the beaches... Something should be said for consistency!

Not only bikinis on beaches but sleeveless shirts and shorts in the towns and nightclubs. And again not only the tourist that dress that way but also the locals. Not the elderly people but the younger people.

Again it's no problem to wear clothes that covers your shoulders and knees, we did that all the time in Rome and other places where we visited religious places.
The fact that it wasn't told us that there was a dress code that's what went wrong here.
Yes, i do plan and prepare my vacations, up until the point that there is little that i don't know of a city and country that i visit.

Let me quote from wikitravel.
Tunis — the laid-back capital of Tunisia with easy access to Carthage and a very authentic souk.

Tunisia is a Muslim country, and dress code is important, particularly for females. Whilst a lot of skin (even topless) is tolerated on beaches and within hotel complexes, a modest amount of exposed skin may be frowned upon outside these areas.

Be aware that the further south one travels, the more conservative Tunisia becomes. While most women wear western clothes in the Capital (which has a mix a Mediterranean, European and Arabic cultures), the south of Tunisia is practically devoid of any lingering European influence and is thus far more traditional.