OT School Punishment Issue - WWYD?

[cats mom]

OK I want honest opinions

Funny thing is... if I had seen a similar post even yesterday I probably would have been thinking "that would never happen with my child" They sure keep you on your toes don't they?

Anyway, DS (5th grade) got sent to the principals office today and will be back there again tomorrow serving detention.

He shoved another boy at school today. All reports are that it was not hard enough to hurt him, or make him fall, etc.
Still absolutely NOT OK and I'm fine with his punishment at school. He will be losing privileges at home as well.

My problem is with what precipitated the shove. Apparently the class was all in line after lunch and the boy DS shoved started chanting 'John Sucks' over and over. It didn't take some of the other kids long to join in.

DS walked over and told the kid to stop and then shoved him when he wouldn't. Of course one of the lunchroom monitors was right there and hauled DS into the office. As I said, I'm fine with that. What DS did was wrong and he deserves to be called on it.

But what about the other kids standing there and calling him names over and over again? Where was the monitor then? I understand that they can't get involved with every little thing - but it seems to me that a line of kids chanting what they were is a problem and worthy of an adult stepping in. Am I wrong?

Also, none of the kids doing the name calling got in trouble.
I really feel that bullying is a problem and that the boy who started the chanting should have been called on that as well. I know it's too late for that now.
But I'm still considering sending back a note along with the detention notice letting the principal know that while I support her in punishing DS that I also feel that someone in authority should have stepped in before it escalated to the point it did and allowing kids to bully like they did is a huge problem as well.

Do you think that would be appropriate? Would you send a note or make a call expressing concern over the name calling or just let it go?

Our school just started the whole character counts program this year too. Hmm I question whether it's working all that well.


OK - I asked. Tell me what you think. I can take it.
Just don't tell me that I suck over and over again, OK
Because I think that's just mean!

 

[mytwotinks]

The best parenting advice I ever got........Never say "Not my child" because it probably was.

They are little boogers and that is why God gave them parents!

I think that I would probably call the principal and mention that your son is upset about being bullied. You should make it clear that you are totally o.k. with his punishment and will be following up at home. I would probably go at it with a "let's see how we can help him deal with the bullies in the future so he knows how to react in a similar situation" attitude. You probably won't get any action, but at least you have it out there that it happened and if it happens again you'll have it on record that it has happened before. If I liked my principal (I can't stand mine so I wouldn't) I would maybe even have a meeting with your son there so it was made very clear how the principal thinks your son should handle this and how we are going to stop it. I can not stand bullies!!!!!

 

[FSUDisneyGirl]

Ditto on the "I can not stand bullies!!!"

I just finished up an internship teaching music at an elementary school. One day one of the 4th grade teachers came to the music room to ask about a few students in her class...she had see one bullying a few others, and wanted to see if it was happening elsewhere. She was very concerned, and it was great to see. I hope when I have kids, they have a teacher like her!

My suggestion is...talk to his teacher maybe? He/She is the one who is probably around your student the most. Also, probably the one who can stop the bullying and change the classroom environment so it is not allowed!

As for character traits....in general, I don't see many teachers focusing or explaining the traits much (I'm not blaming them at all, I know they have enough else to do!) However, I have observed some instances where the teacher uses the traits in classroom discussions, etc, and I think they really help the students get along! At the school I just interned at, there is a character trait for every month. At the end of each month, each teacher picks one student who exemplifies that trait...and all the students appear on the morning announcements, where the guidance counselor reads a little blurb that each teacher wrote about their specific student. It is fabulous! The kids feel great, the parents come to watch them on TV and are so proud, and most of the classes are happy to see their student on TV. So I guess the character traits can be good, if the school works to do something special with them!

 

[mytwotinks]

Ditto on the "I can not stand bullies!!!"

I just finished up an internship teaching music at an elementary school. One day one of the 4th grade teachers came to the music room to ask about a few students in her class...she had see one bullying a few others, and wanted to see if it was happening elsewhere. She was very concerned, and it was great to see. I hope when I have kids, they have a teacher like her!

My suggestion is...talk to his teacher maybe? He/She is the one who is probably around your student the most. Also, probably the one who can stop the bullying and change the classroom environment so it is not allowed!

As for character traits....in general, I don't see many teachers focusing or explaining the traits much (I'm not blaming them at all, I know they have enough else to do!) However, I have observed some instances where the teacher uses the traits in classroom discussions, etc, and I think they really help the students get along! At the school I just interned at, there is a character trait for every month. At the end of each month, each teacher picks one student who exemplifies that trait...and all the students appear on the morning announcements, where the guidance counselor reads a little blurb that each teacher wrote about their specific student. It is fabulous! The kids feel great, the parents come to watch them on TV and are so proud, and most of the classes are happy to see their student on TV. So I guess the character traits can be good, if the school works to do something special with them!

You are probably right about going to the teacher. That would probably get more results than the principal. I am probably a little biased when I say go to the principal. We have a bully in my dd's 3rd grade class and I kept going to the teacher, but honestly the kid knew how to do it behind the teachers back. It would be great if all bullies were stupid, so they'd get caught! Too bad that most bullies are pretty good at what they do.

OP: I know your son deserves a consequence, but I don't think that there would be anything wrong with letting him know that even though what he did was wrong, you understand why he did it. You guys need to work together to come up with a "game plan" for the future and that way your son won't feel so alone when the bullying starts.

 

[Samantha/NC]

I teach first grade and I can also say--bullying is a problem even in the lower grades--first I would see if anyone else heard the kids chanting--you could then request to see the lunch monitor, to see if she knew what exactly lead up to the push. Good for you, for having your son accept the punishment--you are teaching him good character traits--even if the school may not be!!

 

[cats mom]

Thanks for the input. Good suggestions.

Honestly I had no idea that there was a problem with bullying before this, but I'm finding out that may not be the case.

DS's take on it (I do understand this is his side of the story only, so is most certainly skewed... it's a matter of figuring out how skewed) is that the kid who started the name calling is just one of those all around tough/mean kids. He doesn't necessarily target my son over anyone else, but he is always picking on someone.

I'm most concerned that so many of the other kids willing joined in the name calling aimed at DS with him. Makes me wonder if there is a bigger issue and not just dumb group behavior?


I can see how DS is an easy target. He's one of the smaller boys in his class and leaves the classroom for both math and reading (in the gifted program) which sets him apart.

I do ask his teachers about how he is doing socially at every conference and have had nothing but positive responses thus far, so go figure.

Thanks again for the responses and for letting me ramble on.

 

[geetey]

My recommendation would be to say something to the principal. It is not right that the other boys weren't called into her for an explanation.

My son had a situation at school in 3rd grade. Let me start by saying we were new to the school and area. My ds had become friends with 2 other boys in the class as well as a couple of the girls. (I have since found out that he has been 'labeled' as a 'boy who plays with girls'. At our previous school, everyone played together. No one cared if you were a girl or boy. I have encouraged my ds to continue this because it DOESN"T matter if you play with girls or boys. They are just friends.)

Evidently there was a 'group' of boys who randomly picked on kids on the playground. Teachers do not do playground duty here, but parents do. Well my ds and his friends were playing some game they made up called Zookeeper, when the 'group' decided they wanted to join. Their idea of 'joining' was to jump on and tackle my son. (He was the lion tamer and they were keeping him from the other animals.) Well as three boys are hanging on my ds trying to pull him to the ground, my ds tried calling for help. The playground monitor didn't hear anything and then someone covered his mouth.

DS's reaction? He bit the hand.

Did he get in trouble? Absolutely! I got a phone call from his teacher as well as the principal. I agree that he deserved some discipline (biting is wrong!!). The principal made sure ALL of the boys told their side of the story to her individually (and shared all of the details with every parent). She also punished ALL of the boys.

As a side note, I did ask the principal what action my ds should have taken in that situation. She said she didn't know of anything else he could have done, but still didn't make it alright. That made me feel a little better. (Because ds isn't a biter, never has been.)

Anyway, the point to my rambling is that I think the principal needs to be made aware of the OTHER side of this situation. Since she was involved with your DS, I think she is the person who should be contacted. I would want my ds to see that wrong is wrong. You can't call people names, you can't shove people, you can't hang on people and cover their mouths, you can't bite, you can't hit, etc.

Bullying is unfortunately becoming a HUGE problem in our schools. We have even had parent nights to learn about internet bullying. I am thankful that our school is very proactive in this regard.

Good luck!

 

[sammielynn]

In years past we had several problems with bullies. Finally after countless trips to the school office I had taken all I could and wrote a letter to the Principle and copied the Director of Schools and formally charged the other students with harassment. The Principle nearly wet himself because I recounted several incidents and had names and dates. Needless to say the issue was finally addressed with the students and their parents. I was not a popular parent after that, but the problem stopped.

 

[MSSANDRA]

Sounds like you have done everything right so far. Your DS has to know that he can not use physical means to deal BUT you also are looking at the whole picture. I agree that the school punishment has to stand but I would not be too tough on him at home. He needs to know that you are on his side. I would talk to both the prinicipal and the teacher. I would go to the school so a face to face converstaion is possible. I would include your son in the converstation so there is no "he said- she said" misunderstandings. Bullies are a huge concern and are often seen as a first step toward gangs. It is such a fine line to walk when teaching children how to respond to unkindness.
Prayers for you and him.

MsSandra

 

[paper1225]

I work three times every week in my childrens school during lunch recess time, so I can tell you my "opinion" from that view. I agree that the other children should get in some sort of trouble for the chanting. Bullying cannot and should not be tolerated in any circumstance. As for the monitor, we cannot see everything. I know in our school there are only 5 of us at lunch for about 150 kids/lunch shift, then only 3 of us (and 1 teacher) go out at recess. It is impossible to see it all! Please do not be upset with the monitor-I know in our school we do all we can and I think we do help and keep our kids safe

 

[horseshowmom]

If I were still in the classroom, the boy who started it would have received the same punishment as your son.

It gets a little bit stickier when you try to punish the rest of the group. You get into "who was and who wasn't chanting", so I would have probably dropped that part of the issue after giving them a stern lecture.

 

[perdidochas]

My recommendation would be to say something to the principal. It is not right that the other boys weren't called into her for an explanation.

My son had a situation at school in 3rd grade. Let me start by saying we were new to the school and area. My ds had become friends with 2 other boys in the class as well as a couple of the girls. (I have since found out that he has been 'labeled' as a 'boy who plays with girls'. At our previous school, everyone played together. No one cared if you were a girl or boy. I have encouraged my ds to continue this because it DOESN"T matter if you play with girls or boys. They are just friends.)

Evidently there was a 'group' of boys who randomly picked on kids on the playground. Teachers do not do playground duty here, but parents do. Well my ds and his friends were playing some game they made up called Zookeeper, when the 'group' decided they wanted to join. Their idea of 'joining' was to jump on and tackle my son. (He was the lion tamer and they were keeping him from the other animals.) Well as three boys are hanging on my ds trying to pull him to the ground, my ds tried calling for help. The playground monitor didn't hear anything and then someone covered his mouth.

Personally, I'd be mad at the school system, and don't see how they get away with having volunteers as the main playground monitors.

DS's reaction? He bit the hand.

Did he get in trouble? Absolutely! I got a phone call from his teacher as well as the principal. I agree that he deserved some discipline (biting is wrong!!). The principal made sure ALL of the boys told their side of the story to her individually (and shared all of the details with every parent). She also punished ALL of the boys.

As a side note, I did ask the principal what action my ds should have taken in that situation. She said she didn't know of anything else he could have done, but still didn't make it alright. That made me feel a little better. (Because ds isn't a biter, never has been.)

Anyway, the point to my rambling is that I think the principal needs to be made aware of the OTHER side of this situation. Since she was involved with your DS, I think she is the person who should be contacted. I would want my ds to see that wrong is wrong. You can't call people names, you can't shove people, you can't hang on people and cover their mouths, you can't bite, you can't hit, etc.

Bullying is unfortunately becoming a HUGE problem in our schools. We have even had parent nights to learn about internet bullying. I am thankful that our school is very proactive in this regard.

Good luck!

Well, I think your boy did the right thing (self defense is a right, and a hand over your mouth is a panic-inducing situation), and the principal did the right thing for punishing all of the boys.

 

[mouseketeer_mom]

DS's reaction? He bit the hand.

I realize that I am going to have an unpopular opinion. I truly don't want to offend anyone. It's just my opinion. (worth just what you paid for it) So, I'll lay it out there and then duck for cover.

I think your son did the right thing. Once the confrontation turned physical, I think he had the right to do whatever HE deemed neccessary at that moment to protect himself. I don't think your son should have been punished at all. This was not a "who threw the first punch" question. Your son did nothing that was aggressive. He merely did what he needed to do to protect himself from bodily injury.

 

[Mouse House Mama]

I know I am not going to have the popular opinion here so I am zipping up my flame suit! Personally- I would not have been mad that if it was my ds that shoved the bully. I also would have immediately informed the principal that my ds would not be attending detention unless the name caller was punished as well. Maybe he wasn't right to shove- but I will not tolerate my kids being tormented at school or anywhere. I personally was a kid who was on the receiving end of those chanter type kids. I never stuck up for myself (I "ignored" them) and it never stopped. Truthfully- if I had knocked the tar out of one of them I can guarantee they would have stopped. I would be on the phone to the principal ASAP. It is not too late for the other kid to be punished and for his parents to be notified. Oh- and as for the poster who mentioned that their kid bit another child who was covering their mouth and dragging them to the gorund- I don't think the kid was wrong. Of course it's not okay to walk up to someone and bite them but in that particular situation that child had no other choice. Imagine the panic you would feel if three people were pulling you to the ground and cover ing your mouth. I also would not have let my kid be punished for that even if I had to report the incident to the police as they were physically hurting your child and nobody stopped it. That is the school's responsibility. They are supposed to keep your child safe while they are there. I understand understaffing- believe me I do- I just think that the school needs to figure out what to do then because I will not allow my child to suffer because of it. Okay- flame away...

 

[luvsmickeymouse]

I realize that I am going to have an unpopular opinion. I truly don't want to offend anyone. It's just my opinion. (worth just what you paid for it) So, I'll lay it out there and then duck for cover.

I think your son did the right thing. Once the confrontation turned physical, I think he had the right to do whatever HE deemed neccessary at that moment to protect himself. I don't think your son should have been punished at all. This was not a "who threw the first punch" question. Your son did nothing that was aggressive. He merely did what he needed to do to protect himself from bodily injury.

i have to say that I agree. Both of my kids were picked on and it didn't stop until they fought back and both kids said the dentention at school was worth it. I didn't punish them at home, but they had detention from the school. Sometimes its the only way to stop a bully. Neither one of my kids were picked on again.

 

[drag n' fly]

OK I want honest opinions

Funny thing is... if I had seen a similar post even yesterday I probably would have been thinking "that would never happen with my child" They sure keep you on your toes don't they?

Anyway, DS (5th grade) got sent to the principals office today and will be back there again tomorrow serving detention.

He shoved another boy at school today. All reports are that it was not hard enough to hurt him, or make him fall, etc.
Still absolutely NOT OK and I'm fine with his punishment at school. He will be losing privileges at home as well.

My problem is with what precipitated the shove. Apparently the class was all in line after lunch and the boy DS shoved started chanting 'John Sucks' over and over. It didn't take some of the other kids long to join in.

DS walked over and told the kid to stop and then shoved him when he wouldn't. Of course one of the lunchroom monitors was right there and hauled DS into the office. As I said, I'm fine with that. What DS did was wrong and he deserves to be called on it.

But what about the other kids standing there and calling him names over and over again? Where was the monitor then? I understand that they can't get involved with every little thing - but it seems to me that a line of kids chanting what they were is a problem and worthy of an adult stepping in. Am I wrong?

Also, none of the kids doing the name calling got in trouble.
I really feel that bullying is a problem and that the boy who started the chanting should have been called on that as well. I know it's too late for that now.
But I'm still considering sending back a note along with the detention notice letting the principal know that while I support her in punishing DS that I also feel that someone in authority should have stepped in before it escalated to the point it did and allowing kids to bully like they did is a huge problem as well.

Do you think that would be appropriate? Would you send a note or make a call expressing concern over the name calling or just let it go?

Our school just started the whole character counts program this year too. Hmm I question whether it's working all that well.



First of all let me say you seem to be one of the most level headed responsible parents I have seen on this board in a long time. How you are personally handling this is commendable. Your child will learn to grow up accepting resposibilities for his actions. On the flipside it also shows your son cares very much about people's feelings getting hurt and he reacted to a situation the best he knew how to at the time. I am not saying what he did was the best decision but it was his best decision at the time. I absolutely 100% agree with what you are planning to do. All must be held accountable and good for you to step up to the plate. Again you are setting such a fine example for your son in problem solving. So often I read people critcizing other parents. Too often I see comments by parents that I swear must be a joke because they cannot be serious! My kids school has a zero tolerance policy on bullying. They have been proactive instead of reactive and it is working smoothly. Your question about character counts is valid. There will always be bullying. There will always be children so disturbed that they need to bully to feel some sort of control over their inner unhappiness. These programs enble the kids to have the tools to deal with these kinds of kids effectively. You pushing the envelope will only drive home accountability and further improve whatever measures they have in place so far.

 

[cats mom]

Update:

I contacted the principal and let her know that my 1st inclination was to keep DS home today and hope that a little time over the weekend would help things blow over, but instead I was sending him so he could face the consequences of his actions and serve his detention.

However I also expressed my frustration over the chanting incident and suggested (strongly) that while pushing/shoving is wrong, so is bullying.

Apparently she called 7 boys into her office one by one today. 5 of them basically corroborated DS's version of what happened and the boy who started the chanting admitted it. She said that the chanter suffered some consequences today because of his behavior as well (no idea what)

DS took a little flack from some of the kids today, but no name calling that I know of. More of a 'did you have a fun recess with the principal... ha ha ha' kind of thing.

I actually think some of you could be right. Maybe standing up for himself at the first incident of bullying was not all bad?

Hopefully this will be the end of it. Fingers crossed.

I was pretty upset last night and it was good to be able to vent here and get input from folks who were not personally involved. I figured if I called any of my family or friends they would automatically side with DS.


Thanks again for your feedback. It was much appreciated.

 

[Mouse House Mama]

I'm so glad that it all worked out. It is so hard to send our kids out in the world to begin with. I think you handled it great!

 

[GoofyGirlnPrincessV]

BTDT..I would call the school and make a fuss about your DS being bullied. It is not fair that just your DS got into trouble.

I HATE bullies...

We moved to FL last year and my DS was expelled after 1 1/2 days of school. He got bullied and then stood up for himself and he is the one that got expelled and sent to an alternative school. I later found out that the bully has got a few other kids expelled and nothing ever happened to him.

 

[NeedaVacation03]

My DD is one of those children who has been bullied since 3rd grade and she is in 7th now. Most of her bullying now takes place on the bus. So far she has not fought back, but I can tell you that the time is coming. I call into the school and "discuss" the situation and it gets corrected for a while. I just called in this week and was assured that it was corrected. We will see after Christmas break if anyone remembers . Up until this year I have been very involved in the school system ( dad has cancer and doctor visits are taking priority) so I think that helps some, but I wonder about the poor kids whos parents can't (or won't)get involved. There is one boy on the bus(5th grade) who gets held down and choked everyday until he turns blue, but the busdriver "sees" nothing. Every kid on the bus sees it, but the boy wont tell because he doesn't want to be called a baby.
The whole bully subject just makes me want to cry. I think it is so sad that kids have to face this everyday. I can see why some of them hit back and take the punishment. Maybe if DD did that,they would go away. I just can not agree with the hitting. What to do????
I am glad to see so many supportive people on this topic. Atleast it gives us some hope.