OT-How do I teach ds to defend himself

[allyphoe]

Schools, especially grade schools, have become completely female dominated over the last 30 years.

Boy, haven't they. My DD's elementary school has no male teachers, administrators, or support staff. Most days, her bus driver is the only grown man (and the only adult who is obviously of color - some of the support staff are Native American, but a non-Native kid wouldn't necessarily recognize that) she has any contact with. One of the reasons I'm glad I have a girl - that situation isn't ideal for girls, but is worse IMHO for boys.

Middle school isn't much better. The principal and counselors are women, as are 33 of the 42 teachers. The men in the school are the assistant principal (normally the person who handles discipline issues, so you see him only when you're in trouble), 5 electives teachers (phys ed, 3 music, and shop), and 2 (out of 3 total) social studies teachers. That school has one adult of color, a female special ed teacher.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

No- they will not be in trouble IF the school had already been notified of the problem and it still persisted. As a parent I would make sure of that. My child will not be a punching bag because the school is not doing their part.

How would you do that if the school has a no tolerance policy? Sue? Homeschool?

 

[DreadpiratK]

The other mom got so tired of it that she had a meeting with the principal with her son in tow (after he had been kicked so hard that he had to miss a day of school) & when the principal started with her usual "well, you can't keep your son in a bubble all his life" speech, the mom told her son in front of the principal that she is giving him permission to hit the bully back if he attempts to physically attack him. The principal responded to the student saying "now if you do that you will be the one in the office getting punished". Well, at least he is doing something to defend himself, what choice does he have since the school won't protect him!

contr

That's it in a nutshell, isn't it? Arrogant, incompetent administrators who would rather punish the victim than deal with the aggressor because it's easier. Imagine what the poor kid heard? It's ok for the bully to harm you, but you're not allowed to fight back because you're not worth defending. I have a theory that most bullies grow up to be school principles.


If you're trusting in school administrators to keep you're kids safe, you're not doing them any favors.
If you can't homeschool them, at least teach them to take care of themselves, and if the school doesn't like it TDB. Their your kids, not the schools.

 

[Mouse House Mama]

How would you do that if the school has a no tolerance policy? Sue? Homeschool?

If that was what I had to do then yes. If they have a no tolerance policy then the bully should never have been given a 2nd opportunity.

 

[DreadpiratK]

There's a whole other level to my feelings on this I can't get into because of the rules of this forum. Let's just say it has to do with something a really famous guy once said while teaching a big group of friends up on mount somewhere in Isreal about 2000 years ago. But I've been trying my best here in regards to not how I feel, but how the child in question can get in trouble with his school.

I'm sorry but I can't let that one pass. The One who gave that sermon was continually confronted and opposed by the most powerful men of his day and He never backed down, not once. They did. You don't get crucified for 'just walking away' from confrontation or 'seeking consensus' Unfortunately, the feminization of our culture is most profoundly seen in the church.

I'm not sure what we are talking about here. To me "defending yourself" includes blocking kicks and punches from the aggressor in the situation, and finding a way to diffuse the situation or subdue the aggressor with a limited amount of force. Hitting back can become retaliation, because it's easy to go from "defending yourself" to "wanting to hurt the other person".

That all sounds nice, but it's completely unrealistic and even dangerous. Anyone who thinks that fights can be ended solely with defensive moves has never been in a fight. The fact is that putting the other guy down hard is the fastest way to end a fight, and results in the fewest injuries. Once it comes to blows, dragging things out and trying to resolve the situation some other way will only get you hurt every time. When the aggressor losses the will to fight, it's over, not before. As far as I'm concerned if someone chooses to try and hurt my kids, they have accepted the consequences of that choice, which is that they might get hurt, and I have no sympathy for them. This was the ethos in our schools 30 years ago, and somehow bullying was not near the problem it is today.

School, unfortunately, is not the real world. You are legally allowed to defend yourself if someone breaks into your home. If you are caught fighting in school, you get in trouble regardless of whether you are the one who started it or the one defending yourself. It sucks, but it's how it works.

Can't really comment on schools zero intelligence policies, since we homeschool (this thread is certainly not changing my mind about that!)but I do understand that parents are often stuck with the schools they have and have to deal with them. I don't envy you that at all. I was trying to speak to the underlying philosophical issues.

I didn't say I would necessarily punish my children for defending themselves. But I would prefer if they were able to solve the problem some other way. I think what everyone is missing from my argument is that regardless of how a parent feels about the situation, the school may still punish both children.

Look, I think we all agree on this, the way schools, and society in general deals with bullying is terrible and ineffective. They reward the bully and punish the victim. I am very sympathetic to parents who have to deal with the ridiculous rules in school, it can't be easy in any way. I just think that as parents we should worry more about our kids physical and emotional well being than we do about the kids getting in trouble with the school administration. Easier said then done I know.

We also agree that resolving conflict peacefully is always the goal, no question, and kids should be taught to go to great lengths to do this. Being 'slow to anger' and all of that. Where I part ways with some of you is the idea that it's always possible, and what to do when it isn't. I think the long term consequences to a child of getting the message that they cannot defend themselves because they are not worth defending, and that possibly hurting the bully is worse than just taking the abuse are far greater than the occasional bloody nose or black eye.

 

[badblackpug]

I wonder if I can get some advice from my disney family. I have a ds who will be 7 years old in less then a month, he has a twin dd. He was thought to be on the spectrum when he was younger but got a lot of therapy and has done wonderfully. He is in 1st grade and loves playing with the kids in his class. He tends to be a little quirky and immature but is a kind loving boy. My dd said that today a few kids picked him up and threw him down during recess. There are also 2 boys that pick on him (pushing, hitting etc). It does not seem to bother him. My dh and I tell him if a kid hits or pushes him to push him back. He just doesn't defend or retaliate, he seems to laugh things off and try to run away. He is big for his age as well. How do I get it accross to him to defend himself or these kids will continue to pick on him. Do you think he will finally get it and start to defend himself? I will call the school tomorrow to let them know, but I would feel so much better if he would take care of the situation himself. Thanks, Linda

This is the part that really stands out for me. He isn't bothered by it. Is it just rough play? Maybe he doesn't feel the need to retaliate because he doesn't see it as an attack.

I think there is a big difference between defending yourself and retaliating. If someone pushes or hits you and you hit or push back then you are retaliating, and it will just escalate the situation. If you are hitting or pushing someone to get them off or away from you, then you are defending yourself. Our society is plagued by violence, and much of it is escalated by retaliation. Children need to be taught the proper way to diffuse situations in a non violent way and to comport themselves in such a way that says "I have confidence in myself." Bullies pick on those who seem weaker, not those who necessarily are physically weaker. I am sure something like martial arts helps to teach self confidence so that children comport themselves with an air of confidence which makes them less vulnerable to being picked on in the 1st place.

If I were the OP, and I thought this were a serious issue I would be at the school daily. I would meet with the teacher, the guidance counselor, the vice principal, and the principal. I would also insist on a meeting with the parent(s) of the bully(s). I would make sure that the school was fully aware that I was ready, willing, and able to pursue this to the full extent of the law. Even if that included pressing charges against the child and suing the school district.

We are in a "zero tolerance" district. Students are prohibited from "physically or verbally injuring, intimidating, or attacking" another student. Even in retaliation.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Mohandas Gandhi

 

[ShannonMB]

Wow, what an interesting read this thread is! Bullies just make my stomach turn, and I, like another poster, wish kids that did this would be taken in hand by their parents. But I imagine a lot of the behavior comes FROM their parents -- either they're bullies themselves or haven't given their kids the tools to be confident enough not to want to pick on the smaller/weaker just to prove they are 'somebody'.

I am seeing this from both sides, and I thank goodness my DD hasn't been bullied as yet, because I'm just not sure how I'd handle it! I guess I'm leaning toward 'defend yourself', because I think a lot of times just telling an authority figure makes the kid look even MORE like a target. They got the bully in trouble, and now will have to watch their back at the bus stop. The school can only protect you when your AT school (if that!).

I remember when my little brother was in middle school, he was a sweet, artistic guy, and maybe a little socially awkward. He was also a lot smaller than a lot of kids in his grade. He complained several times that some kid in the neighborhood was picking on him. My dad, not much of a scrapper himself but also not very PC, didn't go to the other kid's parents or the school, just told dear bro if you don't like how someone's treating you, do what you gotta do. One afternoon the bully's dad brought his son over to our house, and the kid was bloodied. Think that bully in the Christmas Story that Ralphy let loose on when he had finally had enough. The 2 dads had a talk with the boys, that hey, they live in the same neighborhood, ride the same bus, go to the same school, etc, they should be on the same team, violence is not the answer, you don't have to like each other but you have to respect each other and keep your hands off, etc. I don't know if it was the beating or the talk, but the bully and his friends steered clear of dear bro from that day forward.

My dad, who said he'd never say this in front of my brother, told me he was actually proud of the kid for making it known that he is no easy target. I sorta felt the same way. Is that horrible??

 

[luvsJack]

OP, I would take some of all of these suggestions. Talk to the school and make sure that they are aware and are taking action. I would also make sure that BEFORE your son defends himself that he gives the school every chance to do something. At that point, I agree with you and few others I would want him to defend himself.

DS had a bully. Nothing helped until he defended himself. DD has one now. Again, defending herself has helped more than any action the school has taken.

DS took karate lessons also. It gave him the confidence he needed to not let the bully push him anymore. I was considering signing dd up too; but she has other activities and has been doing ok defending herself.

I don't believe in fighting and I would never say its ok for my kids to fight for any other reason but when dealing with a bully there comes a point when you have to stop allowing someone to push you around.

 

[luvsJack]

This is the part that really stands out for me. He isn't bothered by it. Is it just rough play? Maybe he doesn't feel the need to retaliate because he doesn't see it as an attack.

I think there is a big difference between defending yourself and retaliating. If someone pushes or hits you and you hit or push back then you are retaliating, and it will just escalate the situation. If you are hitting or pushing someone to get them off or away from you, then you are defending yourself. Our society is plagued by violence, and much of it is escalated by retaliation. Children need to be taught the proper way to diffuse situations in a non violent way and to comport themselves in such a way that says "I have confidence in myself." Bullies pick on those who seem weaker, not those who necessarily are physically weaker. I am sure something like martial arts helps to teach self confidence so that children comport themselves with an air of confidence which makes them less vulnerable to being picked on in the 1st place.

If I were the OP, and I thought this were a serious issue I would be at the school daily. I would meet with the teacher, the guidance counselor, the vice principal, and the principal. I would also insist on a meeting with the parent(s) of the bully(s). I would make sure that the school was fully aware that I was ready, willing, and able to pursue this to the full extent of the law. Even if that included pressing charges against the child and suing the school district.

We are in a "zero tolerance" district. Students are prohibited from "physically or verbally injuring, intimidating, or attacking" another student. Even in retaliation.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Mohandas Gandhi

For some bullies, meeting with the parents is not always the best thing. Many times the parents are abusive to the kid and are bullies themselves. Threatening to press charges may only make the situation worse. I would suggest letting the school take the lead on that one; they are most likely to know the child and the home life and whether or not the parents are reasonable enough to work this out. Also, it could still bring things down worse on your child. Another kid isn't going to think about all the legalities on this, only that your kid told on him.

I am not fully sure that the school could legally call a meeting that would include both kids and both sets of parents anyway.

 

[badblackpug]

For some bullies, meeting with the parents is not always the best thing. Many times the parents are abusive to the kid and are bullies themselves. Threatening to press charges may only make the situation worse. I would suggest letting the school take the lead on that one; they are most likely to know the child and the home life and whether or not the parents are reasonable enough to work this out. Also, it could still bring things down worse on your child. Another kid isn't going to think about all the legalities on this, only that your kid told on him.

I am not fully sure that the school could legally call a meeting that would include both kids and both sets of parents anyway.

They can call a meeting. Been there, done that. Of course, they can't compel the parent to come, but sometimes sitting down in a room with everyone involved, letting them know that you are aware of the situation and you are closely monitoring it helps. My point about pressing charges is a threat I would make if I thought that the school and the other child's parent were not doing anything to rectify the situation. Truthfully, if another child is bullying my child (....and again, been there, done that) I really don't give a fig about their home life. I realize that this child may or may not have parenting issues, but that is neither here nor there when it comes to protecting my child.

 

[luvsJack]

They can call a meeting. Been there, done that. Of course, they can't compel the parent to come, but sometimes sitting down in a room with everyone involved, letting them know that you are aware of the situation and you are closely monitoring it helps. My point about pressing charges is a threat I would make if I thought that the school and the other child's parent were not doing anything to rectify the situation. Truthfully, if another child is bullying my child (....and again, been there, done that) I really don't give a fig about their home life. I realize that this child may or may not have parenting issues, but that is neither here nor there when it comes to protecting my child.

Oh, I don't give a fig about the bully's home life either. (well, I do if the child is actually being abused; but short of that I don't) But if the parents are bullies to the child, expecting them to do anything to help the situation isn't going to be productive.

I get why you would make the threat about pressing charges and I have made that threat myself. In dd's case, the school did take action, the family did not.

If all of this worked in your situation, that's great and I am not in anyway saying the OP shouldn't try every avenue before expecting her son to take action; but sometimes it WILL come to the victim defending his/herself. Any kid really needs the confidence it takes to do that even if it never becomes necessary to actually do. I have also been there and done that--twice in fact and my child taking a stand and refusing to be a victim did help the situation beyond what any adult was able to do.

I am surprised that they are able to call all together in one meeting. In dd's case they have gone to great measures to make sure the bully never knew when dd has gone to the office or made a complaint (her bully has bullied other children). Also, when I was in child care we could not tell a parent which child their child was aggressive toward (biting, hitting, etc.) or if a child was bitten, for instance, we couldn't tell their parent which child bit them.

 

[luvmy3]

OP, I third, fourth or fifth a martial arts program. There are different styles so do some research to see what is the best fit for your ds. My dses do Jujitsu and it has made a world of difference in their confidence, and I know they have the ability to defend themselves if the need should arise. What I like about the program is that it is "the gentle art" and you learn to use the attackers moves against them so you don't need to be physically strong to defend yourself, you just need to learn the techniques and you would be able to bring down someone twice your size.

I really am appalled that the school doesn't seem to be doing anything to help your ds. If they aren't going to defend him, then he should be able to defend himself

 

[badblackpug]

Oh, I don't give a fig about the bully's home life either. (well, I do if the child is actually being abused; but short of that I don't) But if the parents are bullies to the child, expecting them to do anything to help the situation isn't going to be productive.

I get why you would make the threat about pressing charges and I have made that threat myself. In dd's case, the school did take action, the family did not.

If all of this worked in your situation, that's great and I am not in anyway saying the OP shouldn't try every avenue before expecting her son to take action; but sometimes it WILL come to the victim defending his/herself. Any kid really needs the confidence it takes to do that even if it never becomes necessary to actually do. I have also been there and done that--twice in fact and my child taking a stand and refusing to be a victim did help the situation beyond what any adult was able to do.

I am surprised that they are able to call all together in one meeting. In dd's case they have gone to great measures to make sure the bully never knew when dd has gone to the office or made a complaint (her bully has bullied other children). Also, when I was in child care we could not tell a parent which child their child was aggressive toward (biting, hitting, etc.) or if a child was bitten, for instance, we couldn't tell their parent which child bit them.

Well, my daughter was older and was able to identify the bully. In our case it turned into a "she said/she said," "she started it/ she started it" situation, so it helped to sit down with the other parent and try to iron it out. The whole situation was brought to light when my daughter retaliated and got caught...and punished. Long story short the bully was kicking, pinching, grabbing her back pack and knocking her books out of her arms daily, my daughter got tired of it and kicked her, and guess who got caught and punished? Yep! Zero tolerance. Period. The behavior continued, the school didn't do anything because they said they didn't see anything, which, by the way, is not uncommon, because a bully usually makes sure they bully out of the sight line of an adult, in the hall, on the bus, in the locker room. We insisted on the meeting because it was just going back and forth, as is typical with girls. The meeting did not go well. Mom was one of those "not my child!" moms, but it did accomplish my end because the mom was aware that we were involved in the situation and were willing to go to any means to stop it.

 

[Carl Fredricksen]

I am a fan of the 3 strike rule. 1st time- tell the bully to cut it out. 2nd time- tell an adult. 3rd time- punch the kid back etc.

This is our household rule also. But the other posters have me thinking about Martial Arts now. Plus is would help him burn off some energy..

 

[luvsJack]

Well, my daughter was older and was able to identify the bully. In our case it turned into a "she said/she said," "she started it/ she started it" situation, so it helped to sit down with the other parent and try to iron it out. The whole situation was brought to light when my daughter retaliated and got caught...and punished. Long story short the bully was kicking, pinching, grabbing her back pack and knocking her books out of her arms daily, my daughter got tired of it and kicked her, and guess who got caught and punished? Yep! Zero tolerance. Period. The behavior continued, the school didn't do anything because they said they didn't see anything, which, by the way, is not uncommon, because a bully usually makes sure they bully out of the sight line of an adult, in the hall, on the bus, in the locker room. We insisted on the meeting because it was just going back and forth, as is typical with girls. The meeting did not go well. Mom was one of those "not my child!" moms, but it did accomplish my end because the mom was aware that we were involved in the situation and were willing to go to any means to stop it.

ahhh, zero tolerance--don't ya just love it? Our school started with that a while back but have apparently gotten away from it.

I won't say that dd was encouraged to defend herself but the teachers did sort of turn their head the other way when it happened (she wasn't exactly hurting the other child or anything but would stand up for herself).

Both of the bullies we have had to deal with had the "not my child" parents, in fact dd's bully's mom has tried to turn it into a race issue. The thing with that parent is that there was several kids from the same grade that made complaints against her daughter, she still thinks everyone is just picking on her child.

 

[amichaell]

My daughter is nearing three. In a few years I will have her in BJJ classes. BJJ is an excellent method of self defense and lessons can be tailored to younger children with zero issues, meaning the lessons concentrate on positioning and movement rather than submissions. Under no circumstance should a young child learn submissions and choke holds.

Around age 13 I will have her begin learning long bridge bare knuckle boxing, another excellent form of self defense. The long range allows you to defend yourself while staying out of range for most others who tend to utilize short compact punching motions.

When she gets even older she'll be at the gun range and will engage in stick and knife fighting. Overboard? Maybe. But I believe in mitigating risk and being prepared.

I don't want my daughter picking fights and as ALWAYS, the first answer will be to remove yourself from a situation if possible. If you can walk away without throwing a punch then that is the answer. However, constant bullying needs to be handled and if the parents and/or teachers can't, then you aren't leaving the kids much of an option. And if it comes down to that then I'd rather my daughter be prepared.

Knowing how to defend yourself is like insurance. You hope you never need it, but you better have it.

Just my two cents and I hope things turn out well for your son.

 

[luvsJack]

My daughter is nearing three. In a few years I will have her in BJJ classes. BJJ is an excellent method of self defense and lessons can be tailored to younger children with zero issues, meaning the lessons concentrate on positioning and movement rather than submissions. Under no circumstance should a young child learn submissions and choke holds.

Around age 13 I will have her begin learning long bridge bare knuckle boxing, another excellent form of self defense. The long range allows you to defend yourself while staying out of range for most others who tend to utilize short compact punching motions.

When she gets even older she'll be at the gun range and will engage in stick and knife fighting. Overboard? Maybe. But I believe in mitigating risk and being prepared.

I don't want my daughter picking fights and as ALWAYS, the first answer will be to remove yourself from a situation if possible. If you can walk away without throwing a punch then that is the answer. However, constant bullying needs to be handled and if the parents and/or teachers can't, then you aren't leaving the kids much of an option. And if it comes down to that then I'd rather my daughter be prepared.

Knowing how to defend yourself is like insurance. You hope you never need it, but you better have it.

Just my two cents and I hope things turn out well for your son.

Wow! You all must have some awfully tough bullies! What exactly are you preparing her for? Combat?

DS took karate (I would say the type but can't remember the name, only that it came from Okinawa and his teacher learned it there while he was in the military) but it wasn't so much about the punches and kicks that he could give but about the confidence it gave him.

 

[amichaell]

Wow! You all must have some awfully tough bullies! What exactly are you preparing her for? Combat?

DS took karate (I would say the type but can't remember the name, only that it came from Okinawa and his teacher learned it there while he was in the military) but it wasn't so much about the punches and kicks that he could give but about the confidence it gave him.

What can I say? I was a Boy Scout ("Always be Prepared"), I work Information Security (risk mitigation), and I have lots of friends in the military.

To me, learning self defense is just a natural act. I don't care if it dealing one-on-one with a bully in a school or dealing with someone breaking in to your home. When faced with such you only have two answers: react or respond. A reaction is what happens when you don't know what to do. That is what gets you in to trouble. A response is a measured answer that can only come from experience and training.

A response doesn't necessarily result in a fight. It means you learn to assess the situation for the best possible answer. If the best answer is walking or running away, then that is what you do. if the best answer is reaching out to an authority figure (teacher, police, etc), then that is what you do. If the best answer is hitting back first (old saying my instructor favored), then that is what you do. If the answer is shooting a burglar before he breaks down your door, then that is what you do.

I realize none of these are popular answers for many people and I'm certainly not advocating violence as an answer. Violence is a bad answer. Unfortunately there are times when it is the best of several bad choices.

 

[luvsJack]

What can I say? I was a Boy Scout ("Always be Prepared"), I work Information Security (risk mitigation), and I have lots of friends in the military.

To me, learning self defense is just a natural act. I don't care if it dealing one-on-one with a bully in a school or dealing with someone breaking in to your home. When faced with such you only have two answers: react or respond. A reaction is what happens when you don't know what to do. That is what gets you in to trouble. A response is a measured answer that can only come from experience and training.

A response doesn't necessarily result in a fight. It means you learn to assess the situation for the best possible answer. If the best answer is walking or running away, then that is what you do. if the best answer is reaching out to an authority figure (teacher, police, etc), then that is what you do. If the best answer is hitting back first (old saying my instructor favored), then that is what you do. If the answer is shooting a burglar before he breaks down your door, then that is what you do.

I realize none of these are popular answers for many people and I'm certainly not advocating violence as an answer. Violence is a bad answer. Unfortunately there are times when it is the best of several bad choices.

Oh, ok. Knowing the correct response, I definitely agree with that. And yes, reacting without really thinking or knowing what to do can definitely get a person into trouble.

When DS was in karate, I was so thankful that the first thing his teacher told him was not to think he was going to get to a point of fighting off 5 guys at one time. He told him that the old karate move for that was "RUN!" But then he went on to explain about the build of confidence, etc. Karate was really a great thing for ds.

I like the "hitting back first" . And I have seen instances that this probably was the best answer!

 

[PinkRhombus]

I have been in contact with the school for every one of these incidences. I have spoken to the school's social worker, teachers etc. they have called and notified me of the incidences. We also discuss it with my son. If it does continue, I will ask to meet with the principal because I will not put up with abuse on my child.

Well...I'm going to take a pretty tough stance here and say you are already putting up with abuse on your child.

You say you haven't talked to the principal yet. You said that "if it continues". It IS continuing because you said a couple of kids picked him up and threw him down...and you're still saying "if". I don't understand that.