OT-Frustrating 4yr old

[LWatson]

Please tell me that I'm not alone here PLEASE...

My 4yr old since he was little has been extremely frustrating to deal with. I love him dearly, but there are just days I want to scream. We have problems with him listening to the word "No". He will continue to try to do it no matter what (we usually use time out, but that has stopped working). He seems to not understand the concept of sharing w/ his younger brother. He will put something down and then his brother will come up later and play with it, and he freaks out that DS2 is playing w/ his toy that he "was playing with" even though he had set it down. He has these fits that you think we are killing him when he doesn't get his way, and we aren't doing anything but sticking him in time out. When he has to leave his grandparents house he FREAKS..."No don't make me go. Please I want to stay. NO NO NO." etc. People stare at us like we are horrible parents, but I WE DON'T DO ANYTHING TO HIM. We are just trying to put him in the car to leave. He hits his little brother if he doesn't get his toy back and doesn't understand that it hurts DS2. He doesn't focus very well at all except on things like his DS (which was given to him by Santa because he was getting very bored with his blocks and other toys). We put him in soccer and his focus was there for like 10min and then it went down hill. He invaded other peoples personal space and was pushed down because other kids didn't like him being right up next to him (which I have since talked to him about being in other people personal space). We are trying t-ball since he isnt right up in peoples space with it, and he seems interested in it. He does really well when its just him and his brother is asleep, or out with Nana/Papaw, but once he gets his brother back around he is really just hard to handle. Please tell me if this is normal 4yr old behavior or not.

 

[Kat&Dom]

My son is 4 1/2 but an only child. I found that timeout quit working for him about a year ago so now I start counting up and for each number I hit, he loses a toy he loves. If I count to 2, he loses 2 toys. He is very quick to behave now because he does not want to lose his favorite toys.

When he threw a temper tantrum in Wal-Mart at age 3 - he was grounded from Wal-Mart and he remembers it still that he wasn't allowed to go to Wal-Mart for 2 months because he misbehaved.

I am a sinlge mom and his dad rarely sees him so I am the only source of discipline so I have to keep a tight rein. One of my close married friends has trouble similar to you and she has 2 children too. She has started using the counting up method and has had some success with her son.

Good luck - I know it's hard. I think the biggest and hardest thing is to follow through - kids will test and a parent has to be strong.

 

[Elmo888]

I agree with the taking away thing. We use the 123 (from Magic 123 book), and if it doesn't stop (or start) by the time we get to 3, something goes to toy timeout (temporarily if that works, permanently if temporarily doesn't work). Magic 123 talks about time outs or sending them to their room, and I'll use both taking a toy or privilege or a timeout, depending on the situation.

Have you heard of "Love and Logic"? There's a book, and sometimes churches around here will give seminars. It is all about giving your kid choices but with the same end result. It allows the kid to feel like he/she has some power to choose, but just from the limited choices that you give. "Do you want to get into the car by yourself or do you want me to put you into the car?" Either way, he is in the car, which is what you want.

If he chooses to get into the car by himself and then doesn't do it, that's when you can go to the 123 or tell him "since you chose to not make a choice, I will have to make one for you".

"Do you want to pick out your clothes or do you want me to pick them out?" "Do you want to wear this outfit or this outfit?" "Do you want to stop hitting your brother or do you want to go to your room?" And my favorite for my 10 year old (not as effective on my 5 year old) is "Do you want to fold your clothes or do you want to pay me to fold your clothes?"

I would also look into giving him positive attention, especially when his brother is around. Watch for him to do something good and give him lots and lots of praise. And/or making "dates" with him where he gets some one on one time with you or your DH.

Sometimes it is a bunch of trial and error to see what works!

 

[auralia]

i also use the counting method... sometimes she will lose toys sometimes she will lose privliages sometimes she will get time out when i get to 5 but she almost always stops at 4 now because she knows something will happen when i get to 5 (i base what will happen on what i think would bother her the most).

 

[badblackpug]

Methinks he is vying for attention. It seems when he is the center of attention, when his brother is not around, he is fine. 1-2-3 magic is a good book to try. Also you have to be consistent, very consistent with the rules. Another thing is to remain calm and give as little attention to the behavior as possible. It may be that he is outgrowing time out. We always had the time out spot in a place that did not attracts attention. We used the powder room. You can't be seen, and it is dead boring in there. No windows, nothing to do. We also always enforced that "time out" didn't start until you "got yourself together." ie: stopped pitching a fit. For tantrums I use just time out, with the phrasing "I think you need to take a time out and get yourself together, we will discuss what is bothering you when you can speak calmly." Remember this has to be said with no emotion at all. With rules infractions such as hitting or not sharing I team time out up with a real punishment. Such as if he hits his brother "You need to take a time out and calm down, we will discuss it when you get yourself together." After the time out we always ask the question "What is the rule about {whatever bad behavior}? Make him repeat the rule (no hitting, etc) then impose the punishment. "Because you broke the no hitting rule, you can't play with your DS for the rest of the day." Remember you have to stay dead calm, and you have to go for whatever punishment "hurts" the most. Let him know ahead of time what the rule is, and then consistently, calmly, enforce it.

 

[princessmom29]

The above advice about not getting upset is invaluble. Don't let him know that anything he is doing bothers you. Calmly and rationally say "If you don't stop doing x you will lose y" nad follow through every time. I have a DD6 that i like to call (never to her face) my drama queen. As long as I am feeding the drama it will continue. I find that sending her ot her room when she is out of control works well. I will nto discuss anythin with her when she is trowing a fit. She has to calm down and talk rationally.
I also think you need to find our what his currency is if time outs no longer work. What is it really going to make an impact on him to lose? Find the thing that motivates him. It could be a sepcific toy or toys, otuside time, tv, ect.

 

[RumpleMom]

We found that buying a couple toys that only belonged to our younger DD was helpful.

Older DD had to ask younger DD for permission to play with the toys, which were quite nice and not "baby" toys.

Older DD also was allowed to keep a few toys that were off limits to younger DD.

This helped older DD realize younger sister was loved, valued, important in the family and was to be treated correctly.

We all do the best parenting we can. You keep trying to find what works.

 

[2Tiggies]

All of the above advice is great. All kids love an audience, so yes, frustrating as it can be, don't let them see it. You need to at least appear to be in control in order to hold the fort successfully.

Whatever method you use, always give him one (and only one)warning before acting. He is still quite young. With my DD I called it a "reminder" rather than a warning. She is now 8 and understands that she is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong so she doesn't need a "reninder". However with a younger child, you need to give them one opportunity to correct their behaviour volunarily. I say only one warning because once you repeat yourself, it begins to escalate, or at least it can do. When he does well by obeying an instruction, always praise him and make a big deal of it. He will soon learn how good it feels to be getting positive attention. This sounds like typical behavior for his age though. Some kids just have stronger and more persistent personalities. If you can help him to channel his determination positively, this same character trait will be greatly beneficial to him later in life.

 

[PiperPizzaz]

I have a 4 yo boy and yes, this is very normal behavior. I always tell people he is like trying putting a raccoon into a car seat. He is much better about that now. It is just a stage they go through.
We have had good luck with taking away privileges. It takes a while before they get but, it does help in our case.

 

[marymac123]

I can't believe it! It worked!
I was reading this post about 30 mins ago & was gonna chime in about my DD4 who, although an only child, is acting the same way. But, I decided not to because it was the ever dreaded bathtime & getting late...well...I went to her with "do you want to go into the bath by yourself or do you want me to put you in?" And, I still can't believe it, she says, "OK I'll race you there!"!!!!! Wow! I know it's a small step & I got to do alot more but I love this board! I have to go get this book tomorrow for sure.

 

[Elmo888]

I can't believe it! It worked!
I was reading this post about 30 mins ago & was gonna chime in about my DD4 who, although an only child, is acting the same way. But, I decided not to because it was the ever dreaded bathtime & getting late...well...I went to her with "do you want to go into the bath by yourself or do you want me to put you in?" And, I still can't believe it, she says, "OK I'll race you there!"!!!!! Wow! I know it's a small step & I got to do alot more but I love this board! I have to go get this book tomorrow for sure.

Good for you! Everyone wants control...you, your spouse, your kids, whether they are 2, 4, or 14. So, you give your kids some control over things that are "low risk". Even though you are limiting the choices, the kids feel like they have some control over their lives. (And at a young age, fewer choices are perfect for them.)

 

[badblackpug]

The above advice about not getting upset is invaluble. Don't let him know that anything he is doing bothers you. Calmly and rationally say "If you don't stop doing x you will lose y" nad follow through every time. I have a DD6 that i like to call (never to her face) my drama queen. As long as I am feeding the drama it will continue. I find that sending her ot her room when she is out of control works well. I will nto discuss anythin with her when she is trowing a fit. She has to calm down and talk rationally.
I also think you need to find our what his currency is if time outs no longer work. What is it really going to make an impact on him to lose? Find the thing that motivates him. It could be a sepcific toy or toys, otuside time, tv, ect.

Exactly how I "learned" this technique, too! Although she is much older now!

 

[bwilcox]

Love and Logic is a great book. We used it in the school system I taught in.

 

[kwitcherkicken99]

DS isn't 4 yet, but your description sounded just like him! We take things away, and when he behaves, he earns back what he lost. We vary it from video games, to TV privileges, to toys. If he has a good day, he gets things back as a reward.

Since we are planning a trip to WDW, I cut out little Mickey heads and he loses 1 for MAJOR infractions. He also has the opportunity to earn them back, but it takes more than a good / deed. Our trip is good ways away, and I cut out almost 200 Mickey heads, and he knows that if they run out before our trip, he has to stay home with his Papaw... and I WILL leave him behind! (not really, but it sounds good)

Keep on him and stay consistant. He sounds like my DS's twin. Time outs don't work, paddling isn't an option, your pulling your hair out, and he's stomping his feet in defiance. Short of reminding our little ones that attitudes like that are reasons why animals eat their young, the only thing you can do is stay consistant, stay firm, and work on modifiying the behavior vs. changing it.

Do you praise your DS when he's having a good day? You may try that too.

Good luck!

 

[LWatson]

Thanks everyone. We did the put him in his room during the tantrum thing instead of time out. It worked. He calmed down and then joined us. We also took DS2 and put him in his because he was part of the problem (he has learned what buttons to push), and it worked on him too. I am going to see how it works tomorrow. The kids dont know about the upcoming trip as we are still not fully sure it will happen, so I cant threaten no trip...though sometimes I wish I could.

We have talked to the Pediatrician that used to be assigned to him about it, and she told us it was our fault that we weren't doing enough to punish him and that we needed to be "firmer on punishment". USED to be assigned to him is the key phrase. She also tried to tell me that my 2yr old waking up at 2am was my fault and that I had to be causing it somehow...actually she said "What are you doing at 2am to wake him up?" WORD FOR WORD. So she has been no help on what else to do. So, thank you all. I'm going to try some of these out. I'll let you know if you helped more than the "Medical professional" (insert eye roll) that he saw.

Oh and she wanted us to do more than spanking from what she sounded like when she said that we needed to be "firmer on punishment"...this is the same woman (i found out later) who told my Best friend when her kids saw her once to strap her son to a chair when he was having tantrums. My friend reported her and nothing was done as the provider denied it...OF COURSE. I didnt find this out till I told her who I saw (which was not who we were scheduled to see) and she goes "OMG NO, I had hoped she would be gone by now." Her kids saw this practitioner last 6yrs ago...yeah. Sorry to vent on that...I've been wanting to scream about this lady for almost about 2wks now.

 

[ashleyd725@hotmail.c]

I dont have any advice because I swear it feels like I could have wrote this myself. I just want you to know you are not alone. My son is 4 and DD is almost 2. I think it is an attention thing...
Love him to death... just want to pulll my own hair out sometimes

 

[photo_chick]

You said he has trouble focusing except on the DS. That sets off an alarm bell for me. Have you considered ADHD because that is a huge flag for it. Everything you state is typical behavior for an ADHD kid. Yes, it's somewhat typical for all 4 year old boys, but it's more extreme with ADHD kids.

Does he have trouble sitting for meals? Sitting still for any kind of extended period of time (when there are no games, movies, etc involved) Does he have problems going to sleep or sleeping through the night? Does he have vivid nightmares? Does he get completely absorbed in TV or video games to the point where he disregards the world around him? Does he forget to use the restroom? Have trouble finding his shoes, clothes, toys?

The social issues with personal space and lack of empathy you mentioned are VERY typical of ADHD boys.

I know it's over diagnosed and many think it's an excuse for bad parenting, but it's very real and kids (or adults) who have it need to be approached a little differently. He is probably just a typical 4 year old, but if he does any of the things I listed, or something similar, it might be worth considering.

 

[kwitcherkicken99]

she told us it was our fault that we weren't doing enough to punish him and that we needed to be "firmer on punishment".

... Oh and she wanted us to do more than spanking from what she sounded like when she said that we needed to be "firmer on punishment"...

and and !!!! Don't get me wrong, I've busted my kid's butt on occasion, but I have NEVER heard of a medical "professional" condone corporal punishment!

She also tried to tell me that my 2yr old waking up at 2am was my fault and that I had to be causing it somehow...actually she said "What are you doing at 2am to wake him up?" WORD FOR WORD.

You've got to be joking... Did she go to the same Cracker Jack school of medicine that a "medical professional" I saw wanted to put me on a diet when I was in for a blood clot??? Sounds like she needs her license revoked.

 

[tttessa]

Hiya- don't feel it is just you!! it is any family with 2 kids close in age - I have 2 of the nicest sweetest girls you ever did meet - they are polite and considerate and everyone says what a credit they are to us - they are now 7 and 9 - but just guess what they were like at 4 and 2??!!

On sharing - just think how would you feel if your best friend said - oh, you left your husband alone for a couple of hours, so I thought I'd just borrow him, I don't have one, so thought I could just play around with him for a while... , or took your car and crashed/"broke" it, or , or, or, ...... that is exactly what your child feels......

We did the "I know this is yours darling, but if you let x play with it for a short while, you will get a treat/I will read that book to you/give you extra play in the bath time/whatever..." always adding " they are only borrowing it - you will get it back later you know" - because they don't know...

We also did the "special" toys that-never-have-to-be-shared thing. Every child has a few things that you cannot reasonably expect them to share - but our rule on those is that if they don't want someone else to play with them, they go away in the cupboard. Does wonders for the tidiness of their rooms too..... we have our ways...

Funny how things go - we are in the UK, but we have always used a countdown - FIVE, four , three, two, onnnnnnnnnnnnnne. And even though I have never ever said what would happen when I get to zero, I have never ever got there...

We have also always used the "this dress, or those trousers", "stop running, or we leave the shop right now" 2 choices approach too. It works. Sometimes you have to follow through with the option you don't really want, but hey, ho, it passes the message....

Good luck for the future - but you are most definitely NOT alone!!

Tessa

 

[DawnM]

Your child may be on the spectrum somewhere. My oldest was like this and was actually asked to leave 2 preschools and a private Kindergarden.

We have since found out he has Asperger's. If we had waited to have kids we would still have only one.

Dawn