OT: Did you see Jenny McCarthy on Oprah?

[dcforbreakfast]

I know I'm about to start something so get out your and I apologize in advance if I open a can of worms....not my intention. I am not looking for a debate about vaccinating vs. not vaccinating!!!

By the grace of God, my son had all his vaccinations and had no problems with any of them. I did cringe when they'd give him several at once. I just thought, jeez that is a lot for one little baby. I still did it anyway because I trusted my doctor who said she does it this way with her own children and she had four. She was actually very understanding about my fears with the MMR.

I believe in vaccinations. HOWEVER, after seeing Jenny McCarthy and Holly Peete on Oprah yesterday (who say they believe the vaccinations caused their children's autism) I'm wondering if it might be safer to not give them all at once...maybe slow down the schedule.

What I want to know is if there are any moms out there who DO vaccinate, but asked their pediatrician to split them up? What was the peds reaction? Why did you choose to do this? I really hope this stays on topic.

I've heard there is a lot of hostility with peds when they think you might not vaccinate (probably because they've seen the awful diseases kids in other countries get).

If there are any nurses or peds on this board, I'd love to hear from you. No doubt this Oprah show (she reaches so many people) is going to resonate in the peds offices now.

 

[NemoMOm]

All the research we did before DS was born suggested that it is the mercury in the vaccines that causes autism. In fact, when we confronted our ped. about our concerns she said that she did not feel this was the problem but because of all the media had ordered mercury free vaccinations.

 

[fakereadhed]

Most of the vaccines for kids today are mercury free, but you need to ask about vaccines given to adults as well that may not be. Like a flu vaccine. I am not advocating skipping the flu vaccine for children, I am just saying you have to ask if it contains the preservative Thimerosol so you can make an informed decision.

Something is definitely up with the increase in autism, maybe just that the awareness is higher now? But in any case, I don't see why NOT to space immunizations as long as it's OK with your peds.

 

[Daydreamer64]

The toddler is helping me type so I'm sure that I will not spell everything right! Love this kids to death but he keeps me busy!


Both of our oldest boys had all of their's when they were supposed to have them but our youngest had his split up

- not on purpose but he has a severe egg allergy - he tried to quite breathing, swelled up - looked like he was beaten in the face, slobber everywhere- it was very frightening- we had to call 911, now we have to carry an Epi pen with us always- all of this happened at Chef Mickey's on our first day of vacation last year!

We had bunches of tests done at Scottish Rite Children's Hospital and repeated these tests and more- he's allergic to Dairy, Beef, Chicken, Eggs, Soy, and Peanuts- so basically he eats vegis and fruits with a bit of pork and fish thrown in here and there!

So, we insisted that the allergist give the MMR and HepA in his office, as our understanding is, that they are cultured in egg . My ped. assured us that they could handle an allergic reaction- but I had more faith for that problem in the allergist's office. He did fine and we just finished up all of his baby shots except for the 2nd HepA- that will happen later.

I didn't see any difference in his reactions to the shots- still got the fevers and so on- The future will tell- I really am nervious about all of the shots too but I know that the alternatives are or can be worse?

He was a premature baby who was on the vent, blew a lung and had several problems- now he's almost 22 months old and only uses 2 or 3 words-he seems to be cognativily sp? normal just doesn't use words - he does try but all we hear is awawawaw so he's on the "watch" list for now- we won't ever know if it was the premature statis or the shots- I'm leaning toward his prematurity- he did seem to be saying around 10 words or so until he hit 14 to 15 months but unlike JM kid, he still smiles and plays- interacts well with his family?

I have a cousin who has Autism- she is now 25 years old and she is very difficult- she's verbal but has a mentality of a 2 or 3 year old- she pitches fits, plays with toys and so on- no adult behavior there- she can read on a second grade level and does math on a third grade level but her personality and mental capacities are just not there- it's really sad and has me on pins and needles about our youngest little one Her parents have done every sanctioned and other treatments to "cure" her and nothing has brought her out any more- this is where she will be needing care for the rest of her life.

 

[tlbwriter]

We did vaccinate, but asked our ped to split it up. She had no problem. It's been a few years and I cannot how old DD was, or which vaccinations were involved, but I think there was one appointment where she was scheduled to have 4 vaccinations, and instead I believe we did 2 that day and 2 a month later. We just felt 4 in one day was too much, and that it was probably planned that way for convenience rather than for safety's sake.

 

[twinmom319]

This is such a charged topic... so many people feel so strongly. Mostly because:
1. We don't fully understand what causes autism.
2. Autism is such a difficult and devastating condition.
3. Parents desperately, and rightly, want to know why this is happening to their child and what they can do to 1. fix it or 2. prevent it.

I am a pediatrician and mom of 2. I am fully vaccinating my children. I don't believe that vaccines cause autism for several reasons, of which I'll list a couple:
1. The substance purported to cause autism, thimerosal, which is a mercury derivative, has actually been removed from almost all vaccines because of the media attention. And yet autism continues to be a problem and continues to occur.
2. There have been several studies done in other countries where the children were vaccinated differently, or where children weren't vaccinated, where they found that despite this, autism is still on the rise.

Why the increase in autism diagnoses? I think we are still trying to figure this out. Part of it, but not all of it, is definitely that we are more aware and sensitive to try and catch it early.

However, given the above, I completely respect other people's right to make decisions for their own children. I especially don't have a problem with spacing out vaccines on the parent's request. I will sit down with all parents who request this and have a discussion with them about why they feel this way and what we do know about autism. I will also talk with them about what we know about the vaccine-preventable diseases. What a lot of people don't understand is that the reason these diseases aren't occuring now is because of the vaccines, and as more parents are choosing not to vaccinate, the diseases are reappearing. For example, last summer there were several mumps outbreaks and over the past few years there were measles outbreaks in several states.

But like I said before, each parent has to make the decision for their own child. It's my job as a pediatrician to present the information as I understand it, do research if a parent has questions I don't have satisfactory answers to, and work together with the parent to find what's best for their child. And while I may not always agree with every decision, I want to make each interaction a dialogue so we can come to some common understanding. I would hope (although I'm sure this is not the case) that this would be the attitude of most pediatricians.

Hope this helps!

 

[Fintastic]

I think one of the reasons autism is on the rise is simply that doctors are more educated about it now and are diagnosing it more (where in the past they may have disgnosed it as something else). I do think parents should have more of a voice as far as scheduling goes, though.

 

[tonilea]

We have delayed vaccinations because this subject scares the crap outta me!

I work in a veterinary clinic and I know vaccinations are very important, but still, I can't bring myself to fully vaccinate yet..... He has had some vaccinations. MMR is the one that worries me the most.

 

[SharkyGoddess]

All three of my kids have been selectively vaxed after my oldest (and several others) all fell VERY ILL after receiving the MMR. After that, I became serious about not blindly listening to what a doctor tells me, instead I educate myself. Doctors are not always right and they certainly do not always know best. It is my firm belief that a person is responsible for researching any and all proceedures from all angles and then making a responsible, educated decision. As for the vaccines, I selectively vax and demand mercury free, I also refuse all flu shots.

 

[tiffsix]

DS is almost 6 months and has not been vaccinated yet...I have been doing a lot of research on the topic and what scares the crap out of me is the fact that a lot of parents whose children are diagnosed with autism blame it on the vaccines. I know that there is no "scientific" proof linking autism to vaccines, but how could all those Mothers be wrong? I watched Oprah the other day and Jenny McCarthy talked about her "mommy instinct" and I think that instinct says a lot more than some scientific study...anyway, I also believe that vaccines are important, however, I do not agree that giving a 2 month old baby up to 4 different diseases in one visit is a good idea. How can a little immune system handle something like that? I think the CDC needs to really investigate this issue, if anything, to bring an end to this debate. I do plan on vaccinating, but I am delaying them to allow my sons immune system a little more time to mature, and I also plan on splitting them up. I have spoken to my pediatrician about this and she is fine with splitting them up and is fine with me delaying them. I have heard stories of some Pediatricians who refuse to treat the children if their parents choose not to vaccinate. And one question that I have is this....are there any parents out there who did not vaccinate their children and whose children were diagnosed with Autism? Just something to think about...I have rambled on enough, but I don't think this topic will be going away anytime soon!

 

[#1 Pocahontas]

I do not fully understand the debate. It is hard for me to because one thing says this while another says that. Very confusing. My pediatrician is wonderful about it. She gave us her view and opinion on the subject but is totally supportive of our decision. I put off many vaccinations until they had to be given. We also had the MMR split up.

 

[twinmom319]

I myself know some of those pediatricians who refuse to treat patients who don't vaccinate. I personally don't think that that is a constructive way to deal with the problems of autism, vaccines, and vaccine-preventable diseases.

I did find the studies that I had talked about earlier. Specifically, in Denmark, all thimerosal/mercury was discontinued from all vaccines in 1992. There was, however, an increase in incidence of autism through 2000 (when the study was completed) INCLUDING autism in children born after 1992 and who consequently did not receive ANY vaccines containing mercury. In addition, a study done in Montreal showed that even as the number of MMR vaccinations given to children dropped, the incidence of autism continued to rise.

I know that doesn't specifically answer your question, but I thought it would at least address some of it.

I completely understand the mommy instinct, being a mommy myself, which is why I think that parents should always be able to discuss these things in an open matter with their pediatrician and come to some kind of workable solution.

 

[Keara'sMom]

As a parent, I fully support all parents' right to make informed medical decisions regarding their children.

That said, as a school psychologist working with the birth to 5 population, my understanding is that there is no clear indication yet what causes autism. Speculation exists that it is the MMR vaccine specifically that causes autism; perhaps, it's coincidence. It's my understanding that the MMR vaccine typically is given right about the time that signs of autism become more apparent. Kids develop words and then stop using them. They begin to avoid making eye contact and interacting reciprocally, etc....

There's a great deal of research happening now on the early signs of autism. Perhaps one day soon we'll have some definitive answers. Until then, early intervention is key and can be very, very effective in helping kids and families who are affected by this!

 

[Minniemouse07]

We selectively vaxed dd. She received only one shot per visit...over weeks at a time. DTaP cannot be split, but she didn't receive any other combination vaccine. She also did not receive Hep B, Varicella or MMR.

We stayed w/ pediatrician one for just over a year. They were "fine" with us vaxing off schedule but we were met w/ hostility and a severe lack of respect.

Ped #2 was totally okay w/ selective vaxing. We were there for 3 years. She was all about "respecting" our choices until just after dd's 4yr exam where she told us she was "no longer accepting non-vax patients." When I pointed out that we DID vax, just not on schedule...I was told it was the same thing. We were "allowed" to stay since we had been there, but left.

We are now on Ped #3, while not totally on board w/ the no vaxing thing (dd contracted pertussis, despite being fully vaxed for it so we no longer vax...at least for now), she fully respects our research, and our decision to not vax. She was horrified by our past experiences and the lack of respect shown to us and assured me that it would not happen at her practice.

If you are looking for a vax friendly ped, I would ask around at Attachment Parenting or La Leche meetings, or go w/ a family practice...they tend to be more tolerant of straying from the vax schedule.

Good Luck!

 

[dcforbreakfast]

I am so impressed with this conversation. All of the posts are so well thought out and right on topic. Kudos to the board.

In response to some of the posts:

Twinmom: Thanks so much for adding your expertise to this topic. I do understand that most vaccines no longer have mercury/thimerisol, however I've heard some researchers say they have concerns about the fact that many of the vaccines have live virus in them and that could be the cause (obviously no one knows).

What are your thoughts on giving babies so many "live" viruses at once? We should all be so lucky to have such an understanding doctor. You must see a lot of scared parents with all the media attention. Do you have any parents who want to see the vaccine package as proof there is no mercury/thimerosol? Just curious if that bothers you.

Tiffsix: I have been dying to hear if anyone has stories like that. They did not vaccinate, yet their child still developed Autism. Very interesting. Anyone have any articles or anything they know of discussing that?

Bottom line is this. We love our children and I am terrified of this disease. Just the thought that something could be done to prevent it....and with so much media attention about the shots (am I getting paranoid?) you sit in that office and they're about to give them the MMR and all I'm thinking is "Oh God, this is the autism shot, please please let him be ok." I mean, is that rational? I don't know.

 

[kribit]

I know I'm about to start something so get out your and I apologize in advance if I open a can of worms....not my intention. I am not looking for a debate about vaccinating vs. not vaccinating!!!

By the grace of God, my son had all his vaccinations and had no problems with any of them. I did cringe when they'd give him several at once. I just thought, jeez that is a lot for one little baby. I still did it anyway because I trusted my doctor who said she does it this way with her own children and she had four. She was actually very understanding about my fears with the MMR.

I believe in vaccinations. HOWEVER, after seeing Jenny McCarthy and Holly Peete on Oprah yesterday (who say they believe the vaccinations caused their children's autism) I'm wondering if it might be safer to not give them all at once...maybe slow down the schedule.

What I want to know is if there are any moms out there who DO vaccinate, but asked their pediatrician to split them up? What was the peds reaction? Why did you choose to do this? I really hope this stays on topic.

I've heard there is a lot of hostility with peds when they think you might not vaccinate (probably because they've seen the awful diseases kids in other countries get).

If there are any nurses or peds on this board, I'd love to hear from you. No doubt this Oprah show (she reaches so many people) is going to resonate in the peds offices now.

I didn't up until last year. My twins were up for boosters (which I'm going to at). When they were infants they had a bad reaction to the MMR and I wasn't about to put them through the pain they experienced as babies. Last year, they were due to have 5 shots (1 was for the flu). I declined to give them the MMR booster this year and to be honest I'm going to push it off again this year. While I'm for vaccinating, I think they give far too many shots at once. It's a time saver and that's it. If I have another baby, I would most definatly separate the shots and I'd be real nervous about the MMR.

 

[Microcell]

I was a professional working with children with Autism, back in the day, so my 2 cents is this- I believe that the 1 in 166 we hear about involves all children in the Autism Spectrum Disorder. I think a good number of these kids fell into the ADHD diagnosis criteria until a few years ago. Once Autism was more clearly defined, the numbers went up. I am all for anything that will get media attention to Autism, because having worked with kids, adults with Autism and their parents, I can attest it is devistating. I just would really like to see how many are Asburgers and how many have it associated with Mental Retardation.

I don't know enough about the medical side to comment on that. I will say that until the mid 1900's the main theory of how Autism came about was the "Cold and distant mother" theory. What I mean is that obviously that is not in any way a valid theory and we cannot be sure about Vaccines either.

To answer OP's question- I have met many parents who asked for seperation of vaccines, and they were given what they wanted. You are in charge of your kids, so unless a Ped has a good reason, they should split it up.

 

[mrsltg]

Bottom line is this. We love our children and I am terrified of this disease. Just the thought that something could be done to prevent it....and with so much media attention about the shots (am I getting paranoid?) you sit in that office and they're about to give them the MMR and all I'm thinking is "Oh God, this is the autism shot, please please let him be ok." I mean, is that rational? I don't know.

Knowledge is a double-edged sword. If you are educated on any subject you understand the pros and cons. I can understand your hesitation about vaccinations, but the autism link has been thoroughly discredited by people who have no 'dog in the fight' when in comes to which way the statistics turn.

My older dd is fully vaxed. I have halted the vaccination of my second dd due to allergies, asthma, and excema. Something is going on with her immune system and until we can figure out why, and get it under control, I will not purposely introduce diseases for her to fight. I am due in December with another little girl. I will not allow any vaccinations in the hospital. My newborn has no risk factors for Hepatitis and as such, will not receive the vaccine at that time. I also will not allow testing for Group B strep as I am having a scheduled c-section and my membranes will be intact. The older I get the more of an advocate I become for myself. Some things are just not necessary - the key is evaluating each situation for it's pluses and minuses.

 

[Minniemouse07]

A few things...

Thimerisol is in fact still in many vaccines but the amount is considered "trace" so they don't list it. None of the "live" viruses ever had thimerisol in them, including MMR. Thimerisol is used as a preservative so it cannot be used with live viruses.

Many children on the Autism Spectrum have been tested to have higher concentrations of heavy metals in their systems (thimerisol being one of them..) as well as have excessive amounts of measles antibodies in their guts.

There was a series of articles on Salon's website looking at autism in the Amish community. I'm sure you could find it if you did a search.

I've done lots of research; online, medical journals, etc... and I think someday it will be discovered that some people have a predisposition to autism...and that something in our current vaccines just triggers it. I don't know if it is thimerisol or one of the other preservatives... but that is my theory!

 

[squirrlygirl]

I don't understand why anyone would give a celebrity's opinion more weight over an educated professional. I also don't understand how someone can discredit studies/research/statistics as bunk but then take information from Jane Doe on the web and believe it's the truth. I'm not saying that everyone who chooses to selectively/not at all/delayed vaccinate is doing this, but I see too many posts where the information posted as to their reasoning points back to webpages and posts from others that have no way of being verified.

My latest theory is that it's the mattel toys. I bet the Amish don't have those in the same quantities as the rest of us!