Opinions on a sensitive subject, please

[Bren's Mom]

I 'see' red flags all over op, and I don't think you're overreacting.

My bff and my dh get along great. I think of them as being friends as well. My bff is never married and my dh helps her out with household things like a leaky pipe or a mouse in the wall. She'll even call me and say 'Hey, does S have time to talk to his other wife?' and things like that. All in good fun.

But I cannot ever imagine a time when my dh would talk to her privately or vice verse where they wouldn't tell me about it. They don't e-mail each other. She might ask ME if he can help her with something and THEN they talk to set up a good time or whatever, but it's never a secret from me. (Except perhaps their discussions about my surprise birthday party or something like that.)

If my bff ever said to my dh, 'Don't tell C that we talked' or anything to that effect...my dh would immediately tell me. (Although I can't imagine her every saying that!)

And if my dh ever said to my bff something similar, SHE would immediately tell me. (Although I can't imagine that either!)

So the whole thing is just wrong on so many levels. Check things out. And {{{{{{hugs}}}}}}.

 

[OhdahLolly]

I suppose that any man could say his sexual appetite is never completely satisfied, my DH being one of them. Do I think that, in our case it is reason enough for him to stray again? No, I don't. While I do not have an unquenchable appetite for sex I am not a prude either. Could we and I say we because it is not my responsibility alone, work harder in our intimate life, yes of course we could. As I mentioned in an earlier post my DH works a completely opposite shift to me so our quality time together is on the weekend, with our two young kids. I think I do the best I can all things
considered. It is also harder to want to be with someone when you believe they are thinking of someone else. That has been my life for two years. As for the first time around, his dalliances started during my pregnancy. I was sick as a dog the whole time, raising a pre-schooler and trying to work all while hubby worked an off shift and used his free time to entertain himself. Once I started to suspect he was cheating on me, but had no proof I made the decision to look past it and make him interested in me again. Picture a seven months pregnant woman, throwing up daily, feeling like crap. Then picture that same woman lining up my MIL to take our DD overnight. I told DH we were going for a night out for us, last chance before baby comes and he turned me down.
So, I have made the efforts and continue to.

First, I am so sorry you find yourself in this situation.

Second thing... I wanted to ask. Are you both still going to couples counseling/therapy?

I would add that if you believe the problem also stems from not seeing each other, I would tell him in no uncertain terms that he has to switch shifts. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

And, he has to stop any and all email communication with other women. Period. Even if it is "no big deal to him", considering his emotional and possible physical infidelity, it IS a big deal to you.

The other thing. Regardless of what you do, you can't make him interested if he isn't. No matter what you do, no matter who try to be. It isn't about you. It sounds like these other women are more fantasy to him. He doesn't have to raise children with these women (or change the kids diapers), he doesn't have to pay their bills, he doesn't have to take care of them when they are ill and puking their brains out. All he gets is the "off" time, the fantasy time which does not equal real life. Real life includes all of those things and then some.
That holds so much stronger of an appeal, an "escape", than facing up to the reality of things. But you know what? That escape does not last forever.

Really, I would install a keylogger if he doesn't have a mac to make sure he is keeping to his word, and to keep an eye on this friendship with your friend. I have to say it sounds really suspect that he cheated on you two years ago, and that is the same time she was having an affair. If you get any evidence what so ever, I would go right to her DH and let him know what is going on.

 

[pl'smama]

I'm sorry I forgot to address the cell phone question. My DH's cell is paid for by his work so we do not get a bill. I have tried to find it on line, but I have not been able to figure out that particular snooping skill! I have checked his phone, his texts and pretty much whatever I can access, but have not found anything there. But again, he knew how to hide this stuff before so I am not completely sure he is not at it again.

The first time this happened my DH insisted to me that it was all for fun, an escape from the stress of real life etc. He contacted a marriage counselor and set up the first appointment. He seemed earnest in his attempts to rebuild our marriage, but he did not feel it was fair that I categorized his dalliances as a betrayal or affair. I was able to buy a book called The Emotional Affair and it was bang on, yet DH did not agree. I guess that is why he was able to do this again, without considering my feelings. I just can't believe how my friend would use this weekness. Is it possible she thinks their emails are harmless?

S

 

[Miniefan]

I'm sorry I forgot to address the cell phone question. My DH's cell is paid for by his work so we do not get a bill. I have tried to find it on line, but I have not been able to figure out that particular snooping skill! I have checked his phone, his texts and pretty much whatever I can access, but have not found anything there. But again, he knew how to hide this stuff before so I am not completely sure he is not at it again.

The first time this happened my DH insisted to me that it was all for fun, an escape from the stress of real life etc. He contacted a marriage counselor and set up the first appointment. He seemed earnest in his attempts to rebuild our marriage, but he did not feel it was fair that I categorized his dalliances as a betrayal or affair. I was able to buy a book called The Emotional Affair and it was bang on, yet DH did not agree. I guess that is why he was able to do this again, without considering my feelings. I just can't believe how my friend would use this weekness. Is it possible she thinks their emails are harmless?
S

You know the answer to this, if everthing were so harmless then why would it be kept a secret? You aren't going to be able find out the truth- they have been emailing through accounts you don't have access to, and the cell phone, if there is evidence on there I trust it has been deleted, and the records of it are unaccessable due to the employer paying the bill.

As someone else said, do you really believe your hubby would allow you to read something incriminating? The other emails not lining up is proof enough that something is being hidden or deleted.

Op, this is your life and your situation but I'd be damned if I'd let it happen to me. I can't tell you what to do but I believe you definitely know the answer it's somewhere inside yourself. Please don't try to make excuses for his behavior. I don't know if I would consider this fixable, esp since your dh doesn't see it the same way you do.
I don't even know how to fix something when one of you doesn't see it as broke, ya know? I can only offer you hugs and say I'm sorry.

Kim

 

[OhdahLolly]

I'm sorry I forgot to address the cell phone question. My DH's cell is paid for by his work so we do not get a bill. I have tried to find it on line, but I have not been able to figure out that particular snooping skill! I have checked his phone, his texts and pretty much whatever I can access, but have not found anything there. But again, he knew how to hide this stuff before so I am not completely sure he is not at it again.

The first time this happened my DH insisted to me that it was all for fun, an escape from the stress of real life etc. He contacted a marriage counselor and set up the first appointment. He seemed earnest in his attempts to rebuild our marriage, but he did not feel it was fair that I categorized his dalliances as a betrayal or affair. I was able to buy a book called The Emotional Affair and it was bang on, yet DH did not agree. I guess that is why he was able to do this again, without considering my feelings. I just can't believe how my friend would use this weekness. Is it possible she thinks their emails are harmless?

S

The interesting thing is, I was just reading about this in a mag in my doctors office yesterday.

http://www.redbookmag.com/love-sex/advice/cheating-wives-message-boards

It's not so much about cheating wives, as wives that have been cheated on too. It's a pretty good piece and has a lot of things that you may find beneficial.

And the answer to your question? Is no. If you went to her to let her know how damaging it was to you that he had an emotional affair, that he was emailing these women.. and you were distraught, there is no way she thinks this is harmless. Let's look at the facts here. She is a cheater. She's stated that once a cheater, always a cheater. She knows your DH is a cheater, and she's emailing him on the sly. What does that tell you?

If it was so harmless to her, why wouldn't she mention it to you?

If for any reason I was talking/emailing any of my friends S.O's, you better believe I would mention it to them.

 

[OceanAnnie]

I'm sorry I forgot to address the cell phone question. My DH's cell is paid for by his work so we do not get a bill. I have tried to find it on line, but I have not been able to figure out that particular snooping skill! I have checked his phone, his texts and pretty much whatever I can access, but have not found anything there. But again, he knew how to hide this stuff before so I am not completely sure he is not at it again.

The first time this happened my DH insisted to me that it was all for fun, an escape from the stress of real life etc. He contacted a marriage counselor and set up the first appointment. He seemed earnest in his attempts to rebuild our marriage, but he did not feel it was fair that I categorized his dalliances as a betrayal or affair. I was able to buy a book called The Emotional Affair and it was bang on, yet DH did not agree. I guess that is why he was able to do this again, without considering my feelings. I just can't believe how my friend would use this weekness. Is it possible she thinks their emails are harmless?

S

I think the answer to that is a big "No.". She is no friend. She knows. She said, "Once a cheater, always a cheater.". She could've been talking about herself, him, or both. Probably both. She knows the score. She knows herself and she knows all about cheating. She's either fishing or maintaining a relationship. Hard to tell from the incomplete e-mails.

You don't tell a married man with a history of cheating when your husband is going to be out of town (and with her history of cheating too!). She's not e-mailing you.

You open your heart to this person and that's what she has to offer?!

I think the key for you is to look at it from their point of view. Your point of view is foreign to them. You are thinking of your marriage, family, friendship. They are not. They are in it for themselves. Once you see there is no benefit of the doubt, see them for their actions, you will firmly know. But not until then. You sound like a good person OP. You need to change the filter in which you see things. The situation doesn't make sense because it isn't something you would do. Their actions aren't good. No good intentions. I'm sorry, you can't color it any other way. It is what it is. The question is will your husband come around to acting appropriately for a married father? As far as the pseudo friend, I'd drop that friendship. I'd have some choice words for her and there would be no doubt it is over and done.

 

[Colleen27]

I would add that if you believe the problem also stems from not seeing each other, I would tell him in no uncertain terms that he has to switch shifts. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

While that's a nice thought, I doubt they'd be working opposite shifts to begin with if there was another/better option. Most of the couples that we know who do it ended up in that situation for one of two reasons - either one of them couldn't find anything on a day shift or the daycare bill would be too high to manage if they worked the same shift and had to pay a caregiver for a full workweek's hours. It is really hard on a marriage and not something a lot of people take on by choice.

 

[OhdahLolly]

While that's a nice thought, I doubt they'd be working opposite shifts to begin with if there was another/better option. Most of the couples that we know who do it ended up in that situation for one of two reasons - either one of them couldn't find anything on a day shift or the daycare bill would be too high to manage if they worked the same shift and had to pay a caregiver for a full workweek's hours. It is really hard on a marriage and not something a lot of people take on by choice.

I do not doubt this might be the case. But if it comes down to losing the marriage, then there has to be another option. Even if its in the "paying enough just to pay the daycare" situation for awhile. Especially when you consider the alternative is divorce, paying child support, getting another place to live..etc.

 

[eliza61]

I haven't read through all the pages so forgive me if want I say has been stated or the topic has shifted a bit.

Op, for me the bottom line is, your husband is doing some thing that you feel uncomfortable with and makes you extremely unhappy. He is doing this intentionally and imo that means some thing is wrong in the relationship.

Your feelings are enough imo for you to address the situation.

 

[my3sonsagn]

I'm sorry I forgot to address the cell phone question. My DH's cell is paid for by his work so we do not get a bill. I have tried to find it on line, but I have not been able to figure out that particular snooping skill! I have checked his phone, his texts and pretty much whatever I can access, but have not found anything there. But again, he knew how to hide this stuff before so I am not completely sure he is not at it again.

The first time this happened my DH insisted to me that it was all for fun, an escape from the stress of real life etc. He contacted a marriage counselor and set up the first appointment. He seemed earnest in his attempts to rebuild our marriage, but he did not feel it was fair that I categorized his dalliances as a betrayal or affair. I was able to buy a book called The Emotional Affair and it was bang on, yet DH did not agree. I guess that is why he was able to do this again, without considering my feelings. I just can't believe how my friend would use this weekness. Is it possible she thinks their emails are harmless?

S

You should point out to your DH that he may consider it "all for fun" and not an affair, but in YOUR POV (and the POV's of most people in that situation and many professionals) it is not only an affair, it's a marriage-ending affair. If he wants to continue even knowing that, then you'll know where he really stands on things. Don't let him get by with thinking he's not doing anything wrong - do whatever it takes to make him see his actions for what they really are; so long as he thinks the things he's doing are harmless, he'll keep doing them.

As for wondering whether your (non)friend thinks the emails are harmless? Not a chance.

 

[pilesoflaundry]

I would be very suspicious. Some friend ugh. I wish you the best :hugs:

 

[eeyoresmom]

OP, first of all You have been getting lots of good advice here, but I'm afraid it may be too much. This is a crisis ( whether Dh thinks so or not ). Stop worrying about your "friend" at all. Your problem is 100% with your husband. I don't care if your friend threw herself naked at him, you need to trust HIM. He is the one that made a commitment ( both legal and moral ), to you, not her. There is a world full of women that would cheat with a married man, you can't worry or do anything about them. You don't need this poison in your life. Don't give this woman a second thought. But don't blame her either. IF something is going on here, HIS betrayl is far greater than hers.

 

[Ciao Mickey]

I suppose that any man could say his sexual appetite is never completely satisfied, my DH being one of them. Do I think that, in our case it is reason enough for him to stray again? No, I don't. While I do not have an unquenchable appetite for sex I am not a prude either. Could we and I say we because it is not my responsibility alone, work harder in our intimate life, yes of course we could. As I mentioned in an earlier post my DH works a completely opposite shift to me so our quality time together is on the weekend, with our two young kids. I think I do the best I can all things
considered. It is also harder to want to be with someone when you believe they are thinking of someone else. That has been my life for two years. As for the first time around, his dalliances started during my pregnancy. I was sick as a dog the whole time, raising a pre-schooler and trying to work all while hubby worked an off shift and used his free time to entertain himself. Once I started to suspect he was cheating on me, but had no proof I made the decision to look past it and make him interested in me again. Picture a seven months pregnant woman, throwing up daily, feeling like crap. Then picture that same woman lining up my MIL to take our DD overnight. I told DH we were going for a night out for us, last chance before baby comes and he turned me down.
So, I have made the efforts and continue to.

I think you need to stop being so darn nice about things and start being angry about the way he's treating you and your marriage.

If you've allowed him to get away with things in the past, and he's doing the same things again in the present, well that will be your future too.

Grow a backbone and start giving him some ultimatums. If he refuses to cooperate then you know where you stand in the relationship and you need to make a plan for yourself and your children.

 

[jenrose66]

I'd be suspicious. I couldn't imagine not having DH because of our children. The prospect of being a single parent is horrifying.

However, I don't think I could forgive infidelity. Also your DH should not be blowing off your feelings considering his past. Is there anyway you can spy on him? Follow him? Just to confirm what is or isn't going on.

 

[pl'smama]

Lots of valid points and good ideas. Thank you, I do appreciate it. I read that Redbook article and then checked out the two sites. As for the Cleveland one of moms who cheat and are proud of it, well it pretty much made me sick. The Surviving Infidelity site is great for those who can get support and give it. I plan to look further into it.

I do need to grow a back bone. I know it. I am working on it in several ways, but this friend crap through me for a loop. But I actually took the first step today and emailed her. I have no desire to see her face to face ( my back bone is still growing), but I can be pretty good expressing myself with words. So, I will see what happens. Next on the chopping block is DH. I planned to do it tonight, but quality time with the kids took precisdence.

But I want to thank each and everyone of you for the support, advice and kick in the rear this week. I really did need it. I was always the type of person that said if a man ever cheated on me he was history. That attitude changed when it actually happened to me. Kids do change your outlook in everything. However, as many of you pointed out, my kids will suffer in the long run if I ignore and put up with this now. So, wish me luck. D Day is tomorrow, well today really. I am not going to back down.

( if I don't check in by Sunday night you'll known am in jail for assault, or worse!!

S

 

[robinb]

Lots of valid points and good ideas. Thank you, I do appreciate it. I read that Redbook article and then checked out the two sites. As for the Cleveland one of moms who cheat and are proud of it, well it pretty much made me sick. The Surviving Infidelity site is great for those who can get support and give it. I plan to look further into it.

I do need to grow a back bone. I know it. I am working on it in several ways, but this friend crap through me for a loop. But I actually took the first step today and emailed her. I have no desire to see her face to face ( my back bone is still growing), but I can be pretty good expressing myself with words. So, I will see what happens. Next on the chopping block is DH. I planned to do it tonight, but quality time with the kids took precisdence.

But I want to thank each and everyone of you for the support, advice and kick in the rear this week. I really did need it. I was always the type of person that said if a man ever cheated on me he was history. That attitude changed when it actually happened to me. Kids do change your outlook in everything. However, as many of you pointed out, my kids will suffer in the long run if I ignore and put up with this now. So, wish me luck. D Day is tomorrow, well today really. I am not going to back down.

( if I don't check in by Sunday night you'll known am in jail for assault, or worse!!

S

I hope things go well this weekend.

My only caution would be to take a lot of the advise from the judge and jury of the DIS with a huge block of salt. Maybe your husband is in an emotional relationship with your (ex)friend and maybe he really is innocent. If that is the case the way that you confront your husband may be just as detrimental to your relationship as your suspicions. Trust goes BOTH ways. You trust him to be your one-and-only and he trusts you to believe that he can do it. If you go in tonight with guns ablazin' and he is innocent ... well that could cause irreparable harm.

From what I have read so far you don't have any concrete evidence that he is "cheating" on you. You have the (ex)friend's admission that she will probably cheat again on somebody. You have some once a week emails between them with some possible holes in them which leads you to believe that he is emailing from his work email or calling and/or texting her too. But even after looking at his phone you don't have anything to back it up. While I said before that would certainly make me suspicious, it would not be enough to make me want to kick him to the curb (as per the DIS' rules).

Please proceed carefully here. Misplaced jealousy could be just as harmful to your relationship as a cheating emotional relationship. {{hugs}}

 

[krcit]

Thinking of you OP. I'm sorry that you're going through this

 

[OceanAnnie]

I hope things go well this weekend.

My only caution would be to take a lot of the advise from the judge and jury of the DIS with a huge block of salt. Maybe your husband is in an emotional relationship with your (ex)friend and maybe he really is innocent. If that is the case the way that you confront your husband may be just as detrimental to your relationship as your suspicions. Trust goes BOTH ways. You trust him to be your one-and-only and he trusts you to believe that he can do it. If you go in tonight with guns ablazin' and he is innocent ... well that could cause irreparable harm.

From what I have read so far you don't have any concrete evidence that he is "cheating" on you. You have the (ex)friend's admission that she will probably cheat again on somebody. You have some once a week emails between them with some possible holes in them which leads you to believe that he is emailing from his work email or calling and/or texting her too. But even after looking at his phone you don't have anything to back it up. While I said before that would certainly make me suspicious, it would not be enough to make me want to kick him to the curb (as per the DIS' rules).

Please proceed carefully here. Misplaced jealousy could be just as harmful to your relationship as a cheating emotional relationship. {{hugs}}

OP, by all means proceed carefully. But don't minimize what is going on.

The thing is, the husband isn't doing anything to earn the trust back. In fact, he is being counterproductive.

IMO, you can't trust someone that has breached trust and is continuing the same hurtful behavior. That is the crucial element. She has a lot of valid reasons for not trusting him. The trust the OP had in her husband has been severely damaged. The husband should know that and act accordingly. But he is not. That says a lot!

OP, I'm thinking of you too.

 

[pl'smama]

I hope things go well this weekend.

My only caution would be to take a lot of the advise from the judge and jury of the DIS with a huge block of salt. Maybe your husband is in an emotional relationship with your (ex)friend and maybe he really is innocent. If that is the case the way that you confront your husband may be just as detrimental to your relationship as your suspicions. Trust goes BOTH ways. You trust him to be your one-and-only and he trusts you to believe that he can do it. If you go in tonight with guns ablazin' and he is innocent ... well that could cause irreparable harm.

From what I have read so far you don't have any concrete evidence that he is "cheating" on you. You have the (ex)friend's admission that she will probably cheat again on somebody. You have some once a week emails between them with some possible holes in them which leads you to believe that he is
emailing from his work email or calling and/or texting her too. But even after looking at his phone you don't have anything to back it up. While I said before that would certainly make me suspicious, it would not be enough to make me want to kick him to the curb (as per the DIS' rules).

Please proceed carefully here. Misplaced jealousy could be just as harmful to your relationship as a cheating emotional relationship. {{hugs}}

Thank you for the extra input. I do agree with everything you said, especially that I have no real proof of a relapse. DH has his moments of frustration with our "recovery", but he has also shown sincerity (at times), so I have every intention of approaching this in a non accusatory way. I keep rehearsing how to start, but I am not quite sure how yet. Gotta work on that today. No rely from my "friend" either, which is not surprising.

But thanks again for the support, etc.. It does help

S

 

[Mary*Poppins]

OP, by all means proceed carefully. But don't minimize what is going on.

The thing is, the husband isn't doing anything to earn the trust back. In fact, he is being counterproductive.

IMO, you can't trust someone that has breached trust and is continuing the same hurtful behavior. That is the crucial element. She has a lot of valid reasons for not trusting him. The trust the OP had in her husband has been severely damaged. The husband should know that and act accordingly. But he is not. That says a lot!

OP, I'm thinking of you too.

I agree with this! OP i've been thinking of you and hope your talk with your husband went well!