OK... Now I'm mad about something

[CWIPPERMAN]

I haven't been too outspoken since joining this board, but I have recently started complaining about the negatitive way many of you talk about Disney. I consider myself a "Car 1" person, and think that many of you let your dislike for Eisner taint your opinion of the "World".

Well.... now it's my turn to be mad!

I saw this posted in a thread in the "Theme Park Attractions & Strategies" Board, and figured it was a joke. So... I went and checked, and sure enough it's right there on the Disney website.

According to the Park Hours for September (starting the second week in September), Blizzard Beach will be closed on Friday's and Saturday,s (12,13,19,20,26,27), and Typhoon Lagoon will be closed on Sunday's and Monday's (7,8,14,15,21,22).

To me (and of course I'm biased because this is during my trip), this is CRAZY. Why would Disney do this? Common sense would tell you that the busiest times for a water park (even during the "off-season") would be weekends. Why would they close the parks during the weekends?

I am still in shock, and somewhat expecting to learn this is some sort of technical glitch or type-o, but part of me is almost wondering if some of you are right.

Now... this probably is a technical issue, but the hours for Animal Kingdom during Sept. have been removed. I checked, and they are up for October - but no September hours.

Have they ever done this before? Can this be real?

 

[DancingBear]

More locals may come on the weekends, but most out-of-towners arrive on Saturday or Sunday, and would generally spend their first full day in a theme park, not the water park. That might be the reasoning for that schedule.

 

[SnackyStacky]

Us car 3ers are mad enough for you car 1ers because we want to stop the kinds of things that will make you car 1ers upset! And the car 3ers are accused of being self-centered and overly-negative

Sorry they've fooled with the water park hours during your trip. As for Animal Kingdom, they'd have to be completely stupid to shut down the whole park for an entire month. Maybe the crowd levels they were anticipating have fluctuated because they didn't release the September AP rates, so many are cancelling reservations.

Hope it all works out for you!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

chip, chip, chip....






or






All and all, it's just another brick in the wall.







Oh! O! Do it again! Oh! o! Do it again.
If you don't eat your meat...........

 

[Another Voice]

I find it interesting that the primary defense of the "Car 1" position is almost always taken from a subjective position. The lectures about "if you don't like it don't go" or "why let your negativity ruin a great trip" and "I don't have a problem with [insert latest cut]" are so common we should refer to them by numbers as well.

So – let's save the time and parody the rest of this thread upfront:

1). The hours are clearly posted so you can easily plan your trip according. If you're so upset then don't do. Otherwise to go and complain about it just makes you stupid.

2). Summer ends at Labor Day. If you expect Disney to keep water parks open when it's just summer-like weather and not summer season then you're ungrateful and stupid.

3). No one goes to both water parks during the same day. Having only one open is good enough and is a smart business move in the wake of the SARS crisis. Only spoiled people want choices. If you're complaining that only one is open then you're just greedy, ungrateful and stupid.

4). We should all write letters to them telling them how wonderful they are to keep one of their three water parks open. We know what horrible times they've gone through and we will gladly accept whatever Disney chooses to offer use and gladly pay more for it. Anyone who doesn't think so just refuses to give away their money from a personal vendetta against Michael Eisner and are greedy, ungrateful, and stupid.


There is a reason why WDW was so successful in the past. Those of use in Car #3 complain only because we see the current management ignore, abuse or violate the practices that made WDW great. Standards, goals, procedures and beliefs have a reason for being – to insure continued success. That is something I'm sure we'd all like to see.

All the apologizing, rationalization, name calling and threats to "love it or leave it" are not going to entice the general public – the ones that pay for the place you enjoy so much – to return.

If you want to keep your snow globes people had better start listening to the public.

 

[KNWVIKING]

We can express concerns about the negatives and praise the positives. We keep an open mind, are willing to concede that another opinion from another car has merit, are willing to wait until the facts are in before boosting or bashing. Basically your middle of the road fanatic.

 

[CWIPPERMAN]

I guess I should clarify my main complaint. First, I agree.... at least they are posting the schedule early enough to change my itinerary. But, with that said... I'm two weeks away from going - and now my plans must change.

The biggest issue I have is this. I went last year during the same time (a few days earlier) in Mid-September. During our trip last year, both water parks were open the whole time. We were there the week of September 11th, and the parks/resort were definately slower than they should be this year (I know the FTP has to have done something to increase attendence). So, to me I can't understand why they would close the parks this year - but not last year.

Another problem I personally have with this decision is somewhat of a off-shoot of the point you made about not going to both water parks on the same day. You make a valid point... BUT. We have certain things scheduled for specific days during out trip. We have Priority Seating at certain times. Therefore, our plans were to visit a certain water park on certain days. Now, that throws a big kink into that plan. So, obviously it will just be a matter of switching the park we go to - but still.... it's a pain in the butt when you have worked for so long to come up with a schedule.

Finally the last issue that bothers me is the unpredictible Florida weather. If they get a couple of solid days of rain while we're there - it may mean that we don't get a chance to visit one of the water parks. So, we're there for 8 days (7 nights). The day we arrive, and the day we leave our out due to flight schedules. So that leaves 6 days. Now, for example, Blizzard Beach is closed two of those days. So now we have 4 days to work with to go to BB. Two of those available days we have filled with Priority Seating, and plan to do various things at the parks. So, now we have only 2 days to go to BB. What if it rains those two days?

This year, my girlfriend and I are taking my two little sisters with us on our trip. My youngest sister has never been on an airlane before - let alone on a vacation. She has been reading her Disney books for 4 months getting ready. She can't wait to go to Blizzard Beach and ride the water slides. But... now it is possible that she won't get to go. I guess that is what is most upsetting.

Listen, I have been a defender of "cutbacks" - by justifying them as a way of keeping things running - without having to shut them down. So.... they shrink the hours a little. It's better than shuttering the whole place. But, now they have done something that I didn't think they would do - they have shuttered the parks for a couple days each week.

Don't get me wrong... I'm still a car 1 person. I'm still incredibly excited about the trip. I most certainly won't let this spoil my vacation - and won't dwell on this too much. But this decision by Disney may do something much worse than they planned. It may spoil the trip of a 9 year old girl - because she has been planning for months to ride some rides at Blizzard Beach - and it may be closed while we're there.

 

[HB2K]

Listen, I have been a defender of "cutbacks" - by justifying them as a way of keeping things running - without having to shut them down. So.... they shrink the hours a little. It's better than shuttering the whole place. But, now they have done something that I didn't think they would do - they have shuttered the parks for a couple days each week.

So basically you defended the cutbacks until they hit you....right?

It sucks when the straw hits you.

Don't get me wrong... I'm still a car 1 person. I'm still incredibly excited about the trip. I most certainly won't let this spoil my vacation - and won't dwell on this too much. But this decision by Disney may do something much worse than they play. It may spoil the trip of a 9 year old girl - because she has been planning for months to ride some rides at Blizzard Beach - and it may be closed while we're there.

And that's the tragedy....people who have never been to the park aren't getting as much of what hooked us all in the first place.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"And that's the tragedy....people who have never been to the park aren't getting as much of what hooked us all in the first place."***

That's a great comment. I'm still not close to being in Car 3 or 4, but your one sentence has enlightened me more then page after page of philisophical rants others post.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

That's a great comment. I'm still not close to being in Car 3 or 4, but your one sentence has enlightened me more then page after page of philisophical rants others post.

How so?

 

[KNWVIKING]

Okay, how to describe this.

My Disney history started in '95, about the time the "great decline" began. We fell in love with WDW. Returned in '97, bought into DVC, been back 2-3 times a year since. We have never been disappointed. Can't imagine not going back. Everybody we know that has been since can't stop gushing the praises of The World.

Then we read here how bad it is. Over and over again.Chip,Chip,Chip.Chicken finger,vacuum cleaners,observation deck. Well, I just don't see it. So when I read your ( and others, HB2K included) constant bashing, it gets very annoying.

That doesn't mean I'm blind to some of the current problems that exist but in the big scheme of my life, I can't get to worked up over a chicken finger or vacuum cleaner. It just isn't that important. And I don't fall into the group who'll argue "it's a finger today, but it's Armagedon tomorrow".

Then HB2K makes his "Tragedy" statement. For whatever reason it makes perfect sense. It's like he's saying "boy, if you only knew the Disney I knew you'd understand what we're talking about". That's a statement I can understand.

But now the reason I'm still in in my car and not yours:

Car 3pers, IMO are living for "the good ole' days". Well, it's been my experience that TGOD's are the exact same as the present days, only our brains have had enough time to erase the bad stuff. I did boot camp back in '77. When chewing the fat with fellow veteran coworkers you'd think that the way we talked about boot camp it must have been a blast - one great memory after another. But in reality, I know I actually hated it. My brain erased the lack of sleep, bugs, heat, runnnnnning, lousey food, homesick, etc. Your Disney probably was better then mine, but it wasn't as perfect as you describe and mine isn't as bad as you try and make it sound. And probably in 10 or 15 years I'll be looking back with the same attituted you have now, ( maybe I should print this post and put it in my lock box with a "do not open till 2020" note on it).

I also think the Car 3pers take a lot of liberty when they assume they know how things would be if Walt were still alive, but that's for another discussion.

 

[CWIPPERMAN]

Originally posted by HB2K
So basically you defended the cutbacks until they hit you....right?
It sucks when the straw hits you.

Sure... part of it is me. But you're missing the point. Even when I went last year, I was definately effected by shorter hours. I was effected by a lack of fireworks or Spectro at MK. And while there, I felt I was effected by a perceived (not sure if there actually was) cutback in bus service that created a huge headache getting around.

Of course I'm more upset because this will effect me firsthand. But I have still defended most of these decisions because I have always thought in the back of my mind - well.... at least they're not closing the whole place down (hell, look at Cypress Gardens). But, now they are closing some stuff down. I would be happy with 6 hours at a park - as opposed to none.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

It's like he's saying "boy, if you only knew the Disney I knew you'd understand what we're talking about". That's a statement I can understand.

OK!! Maybe it’s style. Maybe it’s technique. Maybe it’s personality. But good God, Mr. Viking!!! Have you read anything I've written!?!?! Or AV!! If so, and you really do finally understand, could you please explain that sentiment to Mr. Kidds and Scoop!! Every time I try I get accused of using some sort of trump card!! AV tried to say the exact same thing just a couple of weeks ago and it turned very ugly indeed!! So, give it a whirl. If you finally understand it, please explain it to everyone else!! Maybe if you say it, they'll listen!! It's worth a shot!!

Car 3pers, IMO are living for "the good ole' days".

Let me see if I can clarify this a bit. Yes, we did like things the way they were done in the past. We like the way the Disney Company did business. It is what endeared me to the company in the first place. They had such a good reputation that it caused me to buy my DVC, sight unseen, in 1991. My thought was, it’s Disney!! I has to be GREAT!!! And that was because of what I knew of the company, firsthand, from "the good ole' days".

Well, it's been my experience that TGOD's are the exact same as the present days, only our brains have had enough time to erase the bad stuff.

I understand that perfectly. And it’s usually true when friends get together and rehash old times. I was in a band when I was younger. It was a very good band. We were actually starting to make some money and make a mark on the local scene. There were an awful lot of good times. And recently we all got together and told stories, laughed and drank well into the night!! It was GREAT!! But always, in the back of my mind, was the reason we were no longer together. Quite simply, I didn’t really like the lead player and the drummer and they didn’t like the bass player or me for more than one evening at a time (the keyboard player was neutral).

So, yeah! We all put on our rose-colored-glasses and reminisced. Marvelous!! But we all KNEW the glasses were on! We all KNEW we could never play together again. And we all KNEW (I mean really KNEW and remembered) all the bad times too. It's just that we all made a great effort, for that one night to forget it. Or at least ignore it.

It’s not quite the same when you are talking about a business philosophy. It is not the same when you are talking about concrete changes; some subtle and some so obvious that they hit you like a truck!!

Even a cursory look at the methods they employ will clearly show that the way the company did business in the past is completely opposite of the way the company does business today.

Your Disney probably was better then mine, but it wasn't as perfect as you describe and mine isn't as bad as you try and make it sound.

Yes, it was. And that’s not a trump card or saying I know more than you or anything other than what it is. A fact. Plain and simple. And I’ve thought about what you said after that. I think this bothers the Pirate more than anything else.

So, YES!!! I admit it!! My Disney was not perfect!! We usually don’t discuss the problems of thirty years ago, but it had a lot of problems!! A whole bunch of problems!! But the problems were WAY different than the ones facing the company today. It had a problem with staleness and stagnation. It had a problem with living with Walt’s vision. It had a recession problem. It had a gas shortage problem. It had a problem with pricing!! It had a ‘deer in the headlights’ syndrome that caused total inaction, lest they guess the “What Would Walt Do” wrong. It had a problem with overcrowding.

Now, what does that have to do with the state of Disney today!?!?

I also think the Car 3pers take a lot of liberty when they assume they know how things would be if Walt were still alive, but that's for another discussion.

Walt being alive has nothing to do with it. He laid down a philosophy by doing business all his life and especially in dealing with Disneyland and guest interaction on all levels. He also was very instrumental in the planning of WDW. It is that philosophy that has to be kept alive. Not Walt. It’s impossible to try to second guess the man. Walker/Miller tried it and as I said before, got caught like a couple of deer in the headlights. So, we can’t keep the man alive. But we can keep his thoughts alive; his way of doing business alive. We can keep his philosophy alive. It’s easy. Anyone can do it.



Now, you say that my Disney was probably better than yours. That tells me that you are willing to stipulate that things have degraded over the years. So, if you would, answer one question for me. Do you see things improving, staying the same, or getting worse?

 

[HB2K]

Darn it Baron....it's my moment to shine! I enlightened someone! LOL!

Sure... part of it is me. But you're missing the point.

I don't honestly see how I am. Disney has been whittling away slowly but surely. While some of the cutbacks may have been an inconvience to you, this one finally broke your back, cross the line, whatever you want to call it.

So your stance is as long as the place is open, even if for only an hour a day that is a sound business strategy and the "magic" is alive and well? And as the baron points out it seems like you're stipulating that the place has erroded over the years....to the point that the latest cutback, while not closing the place permanently, will affect how your 9 year old sister percieves the place. Do you think these business practices will continue to keep the place open long into the future when she might want to bring her children to the place?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Darn it Baron....it's my moment to shine! I enlightened someone!

Sorry!! I can't help myself! It's like a compulsion or something.

But as far as enlightening anyone, I'm thrilled!!!! Now try it on some of the others!! Maybe they'll listen to you. Who cares, as long as, in the end, they "GET IT"!!

 

[HB2K]

No problem Baron....I just feel special that someone was enlightened by me. LOL

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"Now, you say that my Disney was probably better than yours. That tells me that you are willing to stipulate that things have degraded over the years. So, if you would, answer one question for me. Do you see things improving, staying the same, or getting worse?"***

Improving. I'll get back to this.

***"But good God, Mr. Viking!!! Have you read anything I've written!?!?! "***

Absolutely.And you've probably made the exact comment but it was buried amongst a screenfull of history about how Walt did things and Mikey the Antichrist. I do respect your opinions on this board but regret that you won't acknowledge when good things are reported. Scoop posted a very encouraging report on McPhil. AV gave his expected acidic retort, but you either missed the thread or simply chose to ignore it because it was a sign of an improvement. Now had Scoop reported that McPhil was going to be a video about a spinner ride, I'm fairly confident you would have sound off load and long.


TGOD's: ***" It is not the same when you are talking about concrete changes; some subtle and some so obvious that they hit you like a truck!!"***

Well, when you read post after post of people saying "how dare they" when an old ride is retired or refurbed to a new version I think it applies. Earlier I stated my Disney history started in '95. Actually, it was cinderella liberty back in '77. Went on 20kLUtS. Go in '95, it was gone. Bummer.Then in '97, Sky cars were gone. Bummer. But I understand that IDIOTS who drop things down from the Cars probably had more to do with it's closing then any business philosophy ever did and that 20k was a very slow loader with a high operating expense. Decisions to close rides are not based on "lets see just how many people we can piss off". There is a lot more involved.

***"So, YES!!! I admit it!! My Disney was not perfect!! We usually don’t discuss the problems of thirty years ago, but it had a lot of problems!! A whole bunch of problems!! "***

And 30 years ago you didn't have thousands of friends at your finger tips to discuss every ill into it's most finite detail. Talk about your chip,chip,chip. Look at the infamous chicken finger. How many man hours went into that turmoil.

***"Walt being alive has nothing to do with it. He laid down a philosophy by doing business all his life and especially in dealing with Disneyland and guest interaction on all levels."***

Walt developed a great business model. I believe it was also a model that was being constantly tweaked as needed. One of the great debates will always be "what if Walt were alive today". My opinion is that he was blessed to be alive during a simpler yet still exciting period in this country. People were more easily WOW'ed, the bar wasn't nearly so high. Walt's a tough act to follow.

Now back to your question.

Let me start with ME. First, I really believe he truely loves Disney. But after his early success at Disney, who of us here can say that in the same situation our ego's wouldn't have ballooned to mamouth proportions. Name a CEO without an ego. His over extension of Disney assets,coupled with all the economic,social and worldwide problems which he had no control over put a definite damper on the Magic of Disney. Well, that's old news,time to move on.Get over it. Look at the positives. ABC may have been a mistake, but financial experts predict it to start generating cash this year or next. The movie business has been very good the last year. DVC is a great asset. They've sold off the Angels and maybe the recent success of the Ducks will help that franchise. Epcot opens M:E, apparently starting construction of "Soarin", possibly Spain coming to WS. Over the July 4th holiday we used WDW transportation for the first time in years.It was great,no complaints. AK to get Everest. Early Entry returned. TL supposedly getting an expansion. DCL adding a 3rd boat.McPhil to open soon and reportly will be great.Fastpass. New stunt show in MGM. They are spending money in the parks, more then any of us suspected they would. And Dis stock is showing signs of life. IMO Eisner's ego and pride won't let him go out as a failure. That alone is reason to be optimistic.

 

[HB2K]

Decisions to close rides are not based on "lets see just how many people we can piss off". There is a lot more involved.

Whether they meant to or not, isn't it bad business to enact a business decision that as a result DOES piss people off?

 

[Pinnie]

Once again a fascinating discussion! Keep it up, it makes for great reading!!!

pin

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"Whether they meant to or not, isn't it bad business to enact a business decision that as a result DOES piss people off?"***

Any decision is going to piss someone off. Wether it's a ride that closes, or a favorite item on a menu that's removed or a change in the paint color. Everybody has something they are partial too and any change will be a negative. Why would Disney close a ride ? Because its popular ? More then likely its ridership is way down and it's due for a major refurb. What would be best ? Spend a furtune to refurb a ride that has lost its appeal,or shut it down and build something new ?