Oh, man... toe troubles

[appleorchard]

This is a bit of a saga. Thanks to anyone who makes it through it and can offer some advice. I -- in complete stupidity -- did my 11 mile run two days ago in my sort-of minimalist shoes-- they're Altras, which have a zero drop heel, but they also have motion control inserts. I've been wearing them only for shorter runs and wearing my NB shoes that look like clown shoes, the toe box is so big, for longer runs. But the NB shoes had the Yax Trax on them, so I foolishly headed out in the Altras.

To say my toes are unhappy with me is an understatement. I have Morton's toe, where the second toe is longer than the big toe. I've been getting pain beneath my third toe in certain shoes, hence trying the Altras. I also have a constellation of other foot issues, including flat feet, incredibly serious orthotics-- which I'm trying not to wear-- a partially torn tendon on the bottom of my left foot last year, when I wasn't even running, a bunion on the right foot, a history of surgery on my R foot for posterior tibial tendonitis. So, my feet are bad. And I'm 63.

I came home and almost immediately, my second toenail on the left fell off. It's been black for weeks, so no surprise there. But the end of my big toe really hurts, even to touch. I think the band across the toes on the Altras is too restrictive-- I seem to pull my big toe up on the left foot, because I have a hole over it in all my running shoes.

My toenails were a little long, so I cut them, probably too short, and now things today, after a 5 mile run in my clown shoes-- I mean my NBs, are even worse. There's a blood blister under the second toe on my right, the left second toenail -- the new baby one-- is bruised looking and my big toes really hurt.

I must pull up my big toes when I run-- I guess I'll try putting Vaseline on them to protect them a bit from slamming into the top of the shoe. Anyone have any other suggestions? I have kling-- the stuff on rolls that you can use as a wrap -- I might try taping to hold my big toes down. I did this last year when my foot swelled up from somehow tearing the tendon on the bottom of the foot. My podiatrist had no idea how I did it--he said it's the kind of injury you normally get only from falling off a tall building onto your foot. Yes, that's the kind of thing that would happen to me.

Three weeks to the Princess weekend and I'm doing all three races. I'm ridiculously slow normally, so can't afford anything that will slow me down further, or I'll be at risk of getting swept. My husband is about to cut off my spending privileges for shoes. But he doesn't understand how important shoes really are, especially when you have bad feet. My shoes have all been fitted at running stores, but I think my feet confound even them.

 

[FiggieFan]

I have a similar issue and it got so bad, I couldn't even walk for awhile. The orthopedic surgeon explained that my second toe, which is longer was absorbing most of the weight from my foot when the big toe should be. This is what led to the constant pain between my second and third toe. We had to mess around with a lot of foot pads that went under my foot, below the second and third toe and this kind of pushed the foot up a bit so my toes absorbed weight more evenly. It is sometimes listed as 'ball of foot' pain. I found that wearing birkenstocks when not exercising really made the best difference and they actually alleviated the pain. Good luck! I have been messing with this for awhile and birkenstocks have been my best trick so far. I know foot pain can be a real frustrating thing to deal with, I am still trying to get ahead of it.

 

[Figment1990]

This is a bit of a saga. Thanks to anyone who makes it through it and can offer some advice. I -- in complete stupidity -- did my 11 mile run two days ago in my sort-of minimalist shoes-- they're Altras, which have a zero drop heel, but they also have motion control inserts. I've been wearing them only for shorter runs and wearing my NB shoes that look like clown shoes, the toe box is so big, for longer runs. But the NB shoes had the Yax Trax on them, so I foolishly headed out in the Altras.

To say my toes are unhappy with me is an understatement. I have Morton's toe, where the second toe is longer than the big toe. I've been getting pain beneath my third toe in certain shoes, hence trying the Altras. I also have a constellation of other foot issues, including flat feet, incredibly serious orthotics-- which I'm trying not to wear-- a partially torn tendon on the bottom of my left foot last year, when I wasn't even running, a bunion on the right foot, a history of surgery on my R foot for posterior tibial tendonitis. So, my feet are bad. And I'm 63.

I came home and almost immediately, my second toenail on the left fell off. It's been black for weeks, so no surprise there. But the end of my big toe really hurts, even to touch. I think the band across the toes on the Altras is too restrictive-- I seem to pull my big toe up on the left foot, because I have a hole over it in all my running shoes.

My toenails were a little long, so I cut them, probably too short, and now things today, after a 5 mile run in my clown shoes-- I mean my NBs, are even worse. There's a blood blister under the second toe on my right, the left second toenail -- the new baby one-- is bruised looking and my big toes really hurt.

I must pull up my big toes when I run-- I guess I'll try putting Vaseline on them to protect them a bit from slamming into the top of the shoe. Anyone have any other suggestions? I have kling-- the stuff on rolls that you can use as a wrap -- I might try taping to hold my big toes down. I did this last year when my foot swelled up from somehow tearing the tendon on the bottom of the foot. My podiatrist had no idea how I did it--he said it's the kind of injury you normally get only from falling off a tall building onto your foot. Yes, that's the kind of thing that would happen to me.

Three weeks to the Princess weekend and I'm doing all three races. I'm ridiculously slow normally, so can't afford anything that will slow me down further, or I'll be at risk of getting swept. My husband is about to cut off my spending privileges for shoes. But he doesn't understand how important shoes really are, especially when you have bad feet. My shoes have all been fitted at running stores, but I think my feet confound even them.

I feel for you! I have the black falling off toenails with flood bubbles and the such as well. My second toes pop up also. i don't have all of the other issues though so I have no true solution for you. But I can say that I tried EVERYTHING in my usual shoes (which are mizuno wave nexus 6 that they don't make anymore) - Vaseline, new socks, nothing helped. I switched to addidas energy boost for half my training runs and no toe pain! I still have a bruised toenail on one foot right now from some downhill running in the mizunos but I choose to live with it because I do love those shoes. I guess my point is that the addidas uppers are made with "tech fit" material that my toes seem to prefer. It is more "seamless" and that seems to be the key for me because the material gives more. So even though you say you may have exhausted your shoe budget, you may need to try some out.

Good luck!

PS - nothing against the local running stores but for me personally, I do better doing research online and then going to a big box store and spending literally hours trying shoes on, running around the store, on their treadmills, etc. they do offer help but I'm a people pleaser and have a hard time saying that I don't like something or asking them to keep bringing me shoes. I literally try on 10-25 pairs if I'm looking for something new.

 

[Rose&Mike]

I am sorry about your toe problems! I switched to altras over the summer and finally stopped having black toenails, so no help here. I hope you are able to figure something out soon.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

I don't mean to over-simplify the problem, but the cause for blackened toenails and toenails falling off is friction. The friction causes a blister under the nail bed, lifting the nail. There is sometimes blood in the blister, which is what causes the blackening, but sometimes it is just clear fluid like in other blisters.

There can be a few causes for the friction, and here are the main 3:
1) Shoe is too small - not enough room in the toe box to account for swelling and moving feet.
2) Shoes loosen too much when you run, or are not tight enough to accommodate for the loosening during the run
3) The top of the shoe rubs across the nails too much - too much shoe contact with the nails/socks.

The best solutions tend to be:
1) Buy shoes with more room in the toe box
2) Tie shoes tighter before a run, or stop mid run to re-tighten as needed
3) Try different shoes or socks (thinner socks often alleviate this problem)

Even with perfect shoes, it is possible to have this problem if you lose your form when running. Your foot moves forward a little bit with every stride, and the worse the form, the more it moves. Every movement within the shoe creates friction. This happens to just about everyone when they push themselves too hard. And when running down hills form is even more critical. Without good form, all of your weight coming downhill will cause your toes to slam forward with every stride. Even if you never hit the end of the toe box, you create a huge amount of friction. By landing on your midfoot and avoiding over-striding, you can avoid this.

Good luck

 

[appleorchard]

Thanks, everyone! The big toe looks a little dark and because it hurts so much to touch the nail, I'm guessing there's a blister beneath it. If I were brave I'd drill a little hole in the nail to release the pressure, but I'm not at all brave about these things, despite being a nurse(we make the WORST patients) so I'm icing it to try and relieve whatever swelling there is beneath it.

I suspect the Altras strip across the toe caused friction there when my feet swelled during the long run. I may resort to cutting a hole in the shoe rather than in my toenail lol.

 

[appleorchard]

Well, couldn't tolerate the pain anymore, so had my podiatrist drill a hole in the nail to let the fluid out, which he said was "copious"-- I was trying not to to watch too much.

He's NOT a fan of running at all and especially not for me-- he calls my feet "terrible", which is why I've been avoiding going to see him. I didn't tell him I haven't been wearing my orthotics either....

I think I might need to find a new podiatrist, but we've been pals for 15 years now, so I hate to break up...

 

[BuckeyeBama]

Well, couldn't tolerate the pain anymore, so had my podiatrist drill a hole in the nail to let the fluid out, which he said was "copious"-- I was trying not to to watch too much.

He's NOT a fan of running at all and especially not for me-- he calls my feet "terrible", which is why I've been avoiding going to see him. I didn't tell him I haven't been wearing my orthotics either....

I think I might need to find a new podiatrist, but we've been pals for 15 years now, so I hate to break up...

All of my doctors are now runners. I got tired of dealing with doctors who did not understand the types of injuries that runners face, or the mindset of a runner. A good example - my wife's doctor is not a runner. She began having IT Band pain in November. He doctor was lost, and just wanted her to stop running. I had her visit my doctor who helped her put together a plan to get through her half marathon in January, and then a plan to fully recover once that was completed.

 

[paxsarah]

I've been lucky enough not to have too many toe/foot problems, but I will share as an Altra wearer that they run small (at least my Intuition 1.5s and Torins do) and I wear a half size larger in them than I did in my previous running shoes (NB and Karhu). I know some people size up a full size in Altras. You may have already sized up in them, but I did want to throw that out as a possibility.

 

[appleorchard]

I had to buy 10s in the Altras; but my feet, as my podiatrist again pointed out to me today, are two different sizes, with the left one being almost a full size smaller than the right. Since the problem is the left big tow, I'm probably sliding on that foot. I'll have to tie my shoe tighter and keep the heel in place.

And Buckeye--- I'm about to switch to all runner doctors too. I'm tired of hearing I have such bad feet and legs that it's crazy to run. This is the first real problem I've had since starting running in May, despite my horrible feet and legs. I run really slow--I tried to tell him it was more like walking lol...

 

[bumbershoot]

Well, couldn't tolerate the pain anymore, so had my podiatrist drill a hole in the nail to let the fluid out, which he said was "copious"-- I was trying not to to watch too much.

He's NOT a fan of running at all and especially not for me-- he calls my feet "terrible", which is why I've been avoiding going to see him. I didn't tell him I haven't been wearing my orthotics either....

I think I might need to find a new podiatrist, but we've been pals for 15 years now, so I hate to break up...

I think it's time to find an athlete-focused podiatrist. You are an athlete now, and you have different needs than you used to have.

My brother had a hernia that was so tiny (wasn't palpable) that no one believed him for nearly a year. The non-running doctors he saw said "you're a runner, of course you hurt" without even listening to HOW and WHERE it hurt. He finally saw the partner of the first (of 5) specialist he saw, and this doctor was "runner-friendly". He chose to listen to my brother, and chose to believe him. He said after the surgery that it was so small he didn't know how it was causing such pain (and trust me, my brother is so stoic there should be a picture of him next to the word in the dictionary). If he hadn't kept trying with different doctors, who knows what would have happened?

 

[appleorchard]

I know, I just hate to change doctors. I'm not even going to show him my Altra's-- I know he'd have a heart attack! He wants me in motion control stability shoes AND the high-powered orthotics. And I'm not wearing either of them lol.

 

[appleorchard]

This toe is red all around the nail still. Too sore to run on. Hoping it calms down before Saturday when I was going to do my last "longish" run of at least 8 miles. Was going to do 12 but afraid to push this toe too much.

 

[maryscooking]

Hello! I'm an orthopaedic RN, and I soundly second (3rd, 4th, 5th?) the motion that you need to see a podiatrist who treats athletes, or who is a runner himself. It makes a big difference. You can usually find recommendations for one by asking around on the different running groups' FB pages.

The other thing that I haven't seen mentioned here is that you are switching back and forth between two very different shoe types, and for lots of miles, too. And I think that would be really hard on your feet. IDK, ask the new Dr you find! But everything I've heard says that is not good to do, as it changes your form, and will lead to injury.

Best wishes for healing!

 

[appleorchard]

Hello! I'm an orthopaedic RN, and I soundly second (3rd, 4th, 5th?) the motion that you need to see a podiatrist who treats athletes, or who is a runner himself. It makes a big difference. You can usually find recommendations for one by asking around on the different running groups' FB pages.

The other thing that I haven't seen mentioned here is that you are switching back and forth between two very different shoe types, and for lots of miles, too. And I think that would be really hard on your feet. IDK, ask the new Dr you find! But everything I've heard says that is not good to do, as it changes your form, and will lead to injury.

Best wishes for healing!

You're right about switching-- I've been doing my shorter runs in the Altra's -- which are stability shoes, but with a zero heel drop -- and the longer runs in traditional stability shoes but without my orthotics. When I wear the orthotics, I don't seem to have enough toe space and I'm developing Morton's neuroma on the right foot. My current podiatrist wants me in motion control shoes with orthotics. To me my foot seems "overcorrected" in this combo--my shoes are wearing heavily on the outside and I'm heel striking badly-- almost shuffling off the heel. My goal was to gradually change completely to the Altra's. I naturally land of my midfoot in the Altra's, but the orthotics change my gait and I heelstrike.

I went to the Altra's mostly for the toe space -- they have a very wide toe box, which my podiatrist says I need, and he's right about that. I made the mistake of wearing them for my long run before adjusting completely to them--I put them on without thinking and didn't lock my heels in well enough--I corrected the right and not the left in the middle of the run and ended up with the blistered big toe. Totally my fault for being too impatient to go home and change shoes when I realized what I had done. My "run" is very slow--between 14 and 15 minute miles--for most people, more like a walk, so I was hoping I'd be able to handle it. Nope lol.

BTW, I'm an RN too, but feet have never been my area of expertise. I have very loose joints so I've had to learn the hard way about tendon tears and other fun injuries. Two years ago I had a flexor hallucis brevis tear, which completely baffled my podiatrist--he said it's the kind of tear that normally occurs from major trauma, like falling off a high building. I think I would remember that. Honestly, I'm just tired of letting my feet run my life!

I have a new podiatrist picked out -- a woman who runs who's also Romanian--I've been there 5 or 6 times so I think that's cool! --I just need to wrap it up Tuesday with my current guy with a recheck on the big toe.

 

[bumbershoot]

Honestly, I'm just tired of letting my feet run my life!

Woo, do I understand that feeling!