Oh Dear BMI Lowers economy!

[carolfoy]

If business class seats subsidise those in economy why do people get bumped up??? surely if those seats were so in demand there'd never be any room in upper and business? The overall cost per passenger is the same to get the plane into the air and the extra fare on business and upper pays for the extra service not for the economy passengers. When concorde was first launched they really promoted their strategy that theres was a classless flight as ALL seats were upper class, over the next two years they polled the passengers to find out if they knew how much they'd paid for their seats, less than 20 % of passengers knew their fare price as it was just about all business paid. British Airways and Air France then almost doubled their fare cost as they knew almost everyone was claiming it back anyway.

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

If business class seats subsidise those in economy why do people get bumped up??? surely if those seats were so in demand there'd never be any room in upper and business? The overall cost per passenger is the same to get the plane into the air and the extra fare on business and upper pays for the extra service not for the economy passengers. When concorde was first launched they really promoted their strategy that theres was a classless flight as ALL seats were upper class, over the next two years they polled the passengers to find out if they knew how much they'd paid for their seats, less than 20 % of passengers knew their fare price as it was just about all business paid. British Airways and Air France then almost doubled their fare cost as they knew almost everyone was claiming it back anyway.

the times that bumping happens is down to the amount of passengers overbooked, and the costs for the airline of compensating instead.
Also, bumping happens to people who are frequent flyers of a level and persons paying full fare economy tickets.many companies do not allow their people to fly in Buisness, but in economy at flexible ticket prices, at a cost of anything around £1,000, still cheaper than £4,000 for a flexible buisness seat. I bet those customers will flock to BMi to pay that sort of money and have to pay for drinks and snacks on top!
In rare cases again, based upon how many overbooking there are, non Frequent flyers and other economy tickets are bumped up, at a cost to the airline, but again, cheaper than compensation.
This is on certain routes a very rare occurance, not the norm. Airlines do not want to bump up as this costs them money. You pay a discounted economy price of £336 and you get bumped up to a seat, which is on sale for £1,150, not good economics.
the cost per passenger is not a level scale, are you aware of how many ticket classes there are?
If you had to pay the actual cost of an economy seat, you would be paying a LOT more than the discounted seat you pay.
the cost of the extra service is NOT some £2,000-£4,000 a passenger, take Premium economy for example, the £800 extra each way, that is not the cost of the extra leg room, the rrest of the service is the same as economy, its more closer to the actual cost of an economy ticket non discounted.
You have fixed costs to run the aircraft, that is the overall cost of the flight, you then have your profit to be made to invest in other routes, low yeild flights etc..
If economy flights were such a profit making thing, you would have more airlines flying direct to holiday resorts in the USA and less buisness seats.
Which full fare airlines fly direct to Florida?
BMi will now be competeing at the same price to Chicago with American, BA etc, with their frequent customers having:
1) no snacks or alcoholic drinks (and that does not mean guys and girls getting out of their trees, something I have NEVER seen on ath countless flights I have taken all over the world)
2) No clubhouses
3) A downgrading of frequent flyer miles for each segument

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

This is an interesting article..

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=2009192005

 

[Miffy2003]

Where I am struggling with the whole economy being subsidized by Business class is here: The vast vast majority of the plane is Economy (well, it has been on the planes I have flown on, anyway). Surely the airlines would be unable to sell an entire flight of Business class seats to a "holiday" destination or they would simply just do so.

So you could argue that the Economy and Business classes are mutually dependant

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

Where I am struggling with the whole economy being subsidized by Business class is here: The vast vast majority of the plane is Economy (well, it has been on the planes I have flown on, anyway). Surely the airlines would be unable to sell an entire flight of Business class seats to a "holiday" destination or they would simply just do so.

So you could argue that the Economy and Business classes are mutually dependant

We are not talking about a holiday destination airline, we are talking about a transatlantic full service carrier that's why!
BMi do not fly to orlando direct as an example, they fly transatlantic to Washington, Chicago.

 

[Miffy2003]

We are not talking about a holiday destination airline, we are talking about a transatlantic full service carrier that's why!
BMi do not fly to orlando direct as an example, they fly transatlantic to Washington, Chicago.

I thought we were talking about Business vs Economy and subsidies in general by this point, Obi. Still, back to the topic of BMI, I don't have an issue with them charging passengers for snacks & alcohol, nor do I think this needs to lead to a reduction in Customer Service standards with BMI. As I said earlier, this is my opinion only.

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

I thought we were talking about Business vs Economy and subsidies in general by this point, Obi. Still, back to the topic of BMI, I don't have an issue with them charging passengers for snacks & alcohol, nor do I think this needs to lead to a reduction in Customer Service standards with BMI. As I said earlier, this is my opinion only.

I would have no problem with my travel or TCD charging similar to Ryanair or Easyjet, but the fact is that you can be paying scheduled air fares in economy with BMi from £400 up to £1,000 and they don't let you have an alcoholic drink or a packet of peanuts at those prices. We are not talking about charters, this is an expensive airline, not a cheapo bus.
As has been said by people on Flyertalk, the ones who fly more than once a year to their holdiday destination:-
"But Mr and Mrs Average, paying £200/$350 for a r/t MAN-ORD once a year aren't the sort of punters BD is going to make serious money from. Mr and Mrs Average may not be concerned about having to pay for the wine with their meal, but others will be.

When you travel regularly end up paying the best part of £1000/$1750 for a last-minute return in Y (or nearly £800/$1400 for a one-way t/a), I think its far more reasonable to expect the G&T to be included in the fare - if BD can put bums on seats for £200, why should the full fare payer not expect more in return - does a couple of G&Ts really make that much difference if you've paid out close to full fare? Sadly this is the market BD will drive away, and its the higher-fare regular traveller that really impacts the bottom line, not the once-a-year bargain basement brigage. UA have this much closer to being right - pay full fare (or hold *S/*G) and you get E+ with its extra 4", and if its a choice between E+ and paying for a drink or E- and still paying for a drink, the choice is a no-brainer. Bye bye bmi."

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

Re seat prices.
I took some dates on the BMi web site 26th nov to 12 dec, Man to Chicago not the high season, and the prices per cabin class were as follows:
Economy: £400
Premium economy: £1,732.20
Buisness Class: £4,954.20

Now, there are:
172 seats in economy
48 seats in Premium economy
24 setas in business

Using these prices as an average, as has been said, prices are fluid in each cabin,
the cabins on a full flight bring in the following amount of money:
Economy: £68,800
Premium economy: £83,145
Buisness: £ 118,900

so, Premium cabins, with only 72 seats between them are "worth" £202,046
whilst the larger economy of 172 seats is not even half of that sum.
In fact, Buisness with 24 seats is worth almost double the economy section in turnover, before we look at profit and loss figures on the economy seats!

 

[kristieuk]

Re seat prices.
I took some dates on the BMi web site 26th nov to 12 dec, Man to Chicago not the high season, and the prices per cabin class were as follows:
Economy: £400
Premium economy: £1,732.20
Buisness Class: £4,954.20

Now, there are:
172 seats in economy
48 seats in Premium economy
24 setas in business

Using these prices as an average, as has been said, prices are fluid in each cabin,
the cabins on a full flight bring in the following amount of money:
Economy: £68,800
Premium economy: £83,145
Buisness: £ 118,900

so, Premium cabins, with only 72 seats between them are "worth" £202,046
whilst the larger economy of 172 seats is not even half of that sum.
In fact, Buisness with 24 seats is worth almost double the economy section in turnover, before we look at profit and loss figures on the economy seats!

!! But I do see your point, and in fact, would agree with you. The BMI decision is IMHO a bad move, because I think the airlines have shown that you can be good at no frills, you can be good at quality service that costs a bit more, you can't be both.

I personally don't mind paying next to nothing flying no frills to say, the South of France, but don't fancy it long haul. I really like BMI as an airline, but cutbacks like this just aren't good in the long run, if they want to maintain their image as a quality airline. As you say, if they going to carry on charging £400 to get to FL, people will opt to fly Virgin or BA. The only way cutting back like this will work is if they start selling themselves as 'no frills' and cutting their prices back accordingly.

If prices are equal, there has to be some 'extra' that makes people choose an airline eg I would choose American because the seat pitch in economy is so much better than most airlines. But you pay for alcohol. If you take away the better seat pitch, I would choose BA, because it just feels nicer not having to pay for drinks, even though I only have 1 or 2, and it is overall a better quality service.

 

[Hilary]

Re seat prices....

so, Premium cabins, with only 72 seats between them are "worth" £202,046
whilst the larger economy of 172 seats is not even half of that sum.
In fact, Buisness with 24 seats is worth almost double the economy section in turnover, before we look at profit and loss figures on the economy seats!

Crikey, on those figures, I'm not surprised that they're withdrawing the free G&Ts in economy!

If prices are equal, there has to be some 'extra' that makes people choose an airline

Absolutely, if prices are equal. I think what some of us have been saying is that we'd be happy to pay less for a service that didn't include 'free' extras, rather than more for a service with extras we don't especially want.

I think BMi's argument is that they are cutting back on services in order to maintain prices at their current level. It will only be if / when other airlines have to raise prices to make up shortfall, but BMi maintain their prices, that we'll be able to see whether customers vote with their feet to keep the service levels or save a few pounds.

 

[Netty]

prices for bmi vary, depending who you book with...
we flew with them last year, manchester-washington-0rlando
orlando-chicago-manchester.
economy.
price paid same as going with tcd or any other charter airline...
we would use bmi again. at the end of the day if your not happy then go to another airline that you will be happy with.

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

prices for bmi vary, depending who you book with...
we flew with them last year, manchester-washington-0rlando
orlando-chicago-manchester.
economy.
price paid same as going with tcd or any other charter airline...
we would use bmi again. at the end of the day if your not happy then go to another airline that you will be happy with.

Netty, prices for all scheduled airlines vary, that's why you have a range of ticket classes for each part of the aircraft, i.e. in Economy you will have codes such as B, L, M, N, O, Q, R, T, U, V, X & Y
these are all seats in economy but at different prices, the lowest may be 6 seats, the next lowest, another 6 seats etc.. as these are bought the prices go up until only full fare Y economy is available at the full economy price

 

[Netty]

i know about the price differences in seats, ive spent at least 2 weeks on the phone /teletext and the internet trying to get flights sorted out for next year. couldnt believe all the various prices i was given for the same flight! ended up with virgin, I'm not bothered who i fly with as long as its scheduled.
done charter going to sanford, much prefer mco.

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

Netty,
Its also very strange when you look at a flight, the computer at, say Virgin holds those seats in its system for a few minutes, so that if you then come back within a short period of time, the cost can have gone up, leave it a little longer and the cost comes down again! Unless of course, someone has booked the last seats in that ticket section, that's why if the prices look high, go back a little later and see if they have dropped

 

[Netty]

Thanks for the tip!

 

[Scottish-Helen]

I know that a lot of my customers like BMI and not just for the free drinks. I really don't think this is going to make a great deal of difference to the vast majority of people.

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

I know that a lot of my customers like BMI and not just for the free drinks. I really don't think this is going to make a great deal of difference to the vast majority of people.

Hmm yes,
"OK, I can either book you with American at £335 with no drinks or snack surcharge, or I can book you NMI at £390 plus you have to buy your own alcoholic drinks and your snacks onboard"
Dead in the water

 

[kristieuk]

Hmm yes,
"OK, I can either book you with American at £335 with no drinks or snack surcharge, or I can book you NMI at £390 plus you have to buy your own alcoholic drinks and your snacks onboard"
Dead in the water

American charge $5 per alcoholic drink, and have done for years. It doesn't bother me though. I would choose American for the extra economy legroom, although I understand they may be redesigning their cabins to allow for more seats.