Official Thread - New commercial use policy published 03/31

[muppets3d]

Those are two different divisions. DVD has its own budget, as does each resort hotel on property. DVD stands to get no financial gain from this. In many ways, DVD and the resort hotels are in competition with each other. Disney is not a single company--and from what I've seen, not all the divisions get along well with each other--it's more like a bunch of companies, with shared IP, under a corporate umbrella.

Same thing there though - if people can't as easily rent points every time they want to go to Disney, they'll buy them from DVD.

 

[disneylandtour]

Too specific and restrictive. New members would lose a ton of points if they had anything come up in their first few years of ownership. Or regular members who rented within the last year or two wanting to return this year but then cancelling due to a medical emergency for example.

I think they did great. Give much more info for regular members to follow, but still allowing themselves to take care of any egregious offenders they see.

I understand that. But the problem now is that the terms are so vague, I'm not sure how enforceable they'd be in court. A definition of "regular" and be very different than another. The only quantity now is 51% or more of 20+ reservations.

 

[Moonspinner]

This is not true. Non-regular, non-commercial renting is allowed in the ownership terms. And "personal use" is different than "I'm staying there myself." It may have been a better plan, 35 years ago, to set up DVC with no renting. But that's not how it was arranged. The problem is: the rules remain fuzzy without actual quantities.

Personal use means gifting, not renting. Renting is commercial activity. I don’t think Disney will stop all renting. I’m just saying that they have the ability to stop as much of it as they want.

 

[VGCgroupie]

We'll have to see how this goes. We don't rent out our points, but we do make quite a few reservations. We don't always use all our points ourselves--We occasionally let family members use some of our points. I don't know if that puts us in the bullseye.

You answered your own question unless they aren't actually family and you are fibbing. (not saying you are) Family use is personal use plain and simple.

 

[disneylandtour]

Same thing there though - if people can't as easily rent points every time they want to go to Disney, they'll buy them from DVD.

No everyone wants to go to Disney every year or two.

 

[muppets3d]

But that's the problem, without that, I'm not sure how much these vague terms would stand up in court.

And I think your example may be overly simplistic. It could be something like - DVC members are allowed to rent up to 20% of their total points each year, with a roll over option for up-to-five years. That is, DVC members could rent out a full year's worth of points once every five years or a smaller amount every year, up to the percentage allowed by the rolling 20% rule.

Or a 25% rule or a 30% rule, etc. Or whatever.

That would quantify it, allow owners options, yet would remove commercial renting. I'm pretty sure that there are legitimate family medical situations that require renting points. This gives a path to that, while also quantifying what commercial renting is.

Words like "regularly" aren't going to do much in court, if someone (or some business) sues because they are open to reasonable interpretation.

Not everything has to be spelled out in clear cut math to stand up in court.

 

[Tatebeck]

Regular does not mean that it is allowed to rent a single reservation. Regular means consistent, or routine, or in a pattern. Even renting once a year but doing it year in and year out would constitute "regular' by definition of the word and could get an owner on the DVC radar (although I doubt it from a practical, real-world perspective, but words do have meaning and are chosen based on that meaning).

Anyway, you've now gone from "It clearly reads to me that using a third party is 100% allowed, just not encouraged or endorsed" to "It is only when you rent (or try to rent aka advertise) too much that you will be put on DVC/Disney's radar". If something is 100% allowed, by definition there can be no restrictions or limitations (the whole 100% thing). If there are restrictions or limitations, then it's clearly not "100% acceptable" (or, at best 100% acceptable, but only once or twice).

There are limitations (albeit the ambiguous "regularly"), and I'd wager there are enough owners who use the rental brokers for far more than one or two rentals here and there, and THOSE owners will be dissuaded from using the brokers. I'd also wager that those folks are a robust portion of the broker's book of business (and let's not forget the brokers who are flipping contracts and renting points out on them). I'd also guess the number of reservations the brokers list themselves are probably greater than one or two.

Again, as with so many posts on here, no one has or is saying that the first offense will lead to damnation and ruination. No one has said that the casual renter or the owner who likes to make multiple reservations FOR THEMSELVES will suddenly become the target for Disney's wrath. What I AM saying is that people can't just read the parts they like or assume a rule couldn't possibly apply to them, just because that would affect the specific way they use their points. Also, recognizing that a rule might exist, but convincing yourself that even though the rule sounds like it applies to you, there's no way you're a bad enough "offender" to be negatively impacted is a rather tenuous approach to things.

And you can't have a pattern by definition until there is a repeat. So yes renting at least a single time is well within every members right, as it says in the contracts and documents. As would be using a third party to rent that reservation.

I still don't think you understand it. I don't think anyone is going to be getting in trouble just because they happen to be using a third party to rent an occasional reservation when they need to. They will be getting in trouble because they are trying to rent too often or because they are booking very specific, lucrative rooms/dates for rentals over time to maximize profits. Which is why DVC added these extra explanations into their reasons to consider someone breaking the commercial renting rules.

 

[muppets3d]

No everyone wants to go to Disney every year or two.

Nobody said you have to? I guess I don't get your argument.

 

[Tatebeck]

I understand that. But the problem now is that the terms are so vague, I'm not sure how enforceable they'd be in court. A definition of "regular" and be very different than another. The only quantity now is 51% or more of 20+ reservations.

They can actually choose to use the other indicator which is 51% or more of any reservations and/or points you control, even if under 20 reservations.

ETA Honestly I don't know whey they even left that 20 reservation language in there, unless they just wanted to keep some of the same language from the old commercial multiple reservation rule for some reason. It seems irrelevant now. As long as you are using both the majority of your points and reservations for you or your family over time, I don't think any members will have problems. No need to even count reservations really

 

[disneylandtour]

Personal use means gifting, not renting. Renting is commercial activity. I don’t think Disney will stop all renting. I’m just saying that they have the ability to stop as much of it as they want.

Actually, DVD has never defined what it means by the phrase "personal use," which is another problem. You simply can't plug in a definition for them. And the 2025 DVC terms and conditions, which I posted earlier in this thread, indicates that there's a difference between some kind of renting and commercial renting. I'm not a fan of commercial renting at all. But also, I can see that the language here is so imprecise that this only acerbates the mess for typical owners.

 

[DonMacGregor]

It's baffling how some people are bound and determined to be a victim here.

Preach brother.

It's amazing how many people seem to only book reservations that read something like:

"Well, we only book 3 separate studios (because grammy has a CPAP, our teenage girls absolutely will not sleep in the same room as their brother, and my wife has restless leg syndrome), we only travel during a full moon or waning gibbous, and only during Chinese years named after mammals (no reptiles), and since my cousin sometimes has trouble getting time off at the fish hatchery, and Uncle Teddy has flashbacks from his years working the BART and now has a Monorail phobia and can't stay on the loop but we love Poly, we often have to change guest names six or seven times before we arrive. So, this new policy has effectively ruined our ability to use our points and has stolen all of the magic. Do better Disney."

 

[disneylandtour]

They can actually choose to use the other indicator which is 51% or more of any reservations and/or points you control, even if under 20 reservations.

And that seems clearly now to be enforceable. As for the other things, I have no idea.

 

[disneylandtour]

Nobody said you have to? I guess I don't get your argument.

The original poster was suggesting that a significant number of people "renting" points would end up buying DVC points if they couldn't easily rent points. I think it's far more likely, they'd just book a hotel,

 

[Cyberc1978]

To the ones that also own and rent their own points? Absolutely.

Why should Disney talk to them?. They are no different from you and I as owners.

 

[VGCgroupie]

I personally wish that warnings would have been sent out already to people who are obvious commercial renters that have broken a majority of their guidelines. Now maybe since they shluld have posted these guidelines a while ago, theyre giving it a little bit of time, but i also bet the majority of owners dont even read these updwtes or know about them. If they would actually do something, even just send a warning, it sends a message without them actually doing anything drastic.

The fact that they havent even sent anyone a warning does make me think maybe this is just a scare tactic and they cant really do much legally. But if its just a scare tactic it will never end because people will know its been x amount of years and no action.

Im assuming these super big people do have tons of $$ and can possibly attempt to challenge Disney. And yes Disney has the best lawyers etc. But they have been challenged by owners before, they dont win everything. And I don't think they want to come down on regular owners so that probably adds to the dilemma of how to handle this, them hoping these new policies will scare people. And I think they may for a little while until they test the waters and nothing happens... again. But it does seem like Disney is getting more serious and thats something to watch and see.

I was at a board meeting where the commercial renters came up and where they said they have hired people to work on it.

We dont know if people have been warned. They may have. DVC might be taking things slow for legal reasons. Add personal use checkbox and let the commercial renters check that box for 11 months. They also clearly caught on to the renters that were leaving themselves on the reservation as lead guest as a workaround. I think DVC is much smarter than we realize. Just 3 days ago I was in the pack of they are doing nothing, yesterday I changed my mind.

 

[Brian Noble]

at best 100% acceptable, but only once or twice

 

[disneylandtour]

Why should Disney talk to them?. They are no different from you and I as owners.

It was very clear that this exact thing happened last June, which was the reason big renters dumped a bunch of AUL contracts within a week or two of each other, along with a smaller number of BW and SSR. There was a whole thread about it last summer.

 

[Moonspinner]

Actually, DVD has never defined what it means by the phrase "personal use," which is another problem. You simply can't plug in a definition for them. And the 2025 DVC terms and conditions, which I posted earlier in this thread, indicates that there's a difference between some kind of renting and commercial renting. I'm not a fan of commercial renting at all. But also, I can see that the language here is so imprecise that this only acerbates the mess for typical owners.

I agree it is vague… to some degree. That’s how legal documents are. Disney has kept them vague because they want the leeway to do as they want. Unless Disney specifically gives you the right to rent your points, you do not have that right. And they have never given that right in any document anywhere. Disney has turned a blind eye, but they have not given owners any rights to rent. I keep using the YouTube comparison because it is very similar. Disney has turned a blind eye to the fact that people are commercializing Disney IP, Disney assets on YouTube, but that doesn’t mean disney won’t eventually crack down. Disney has never specifically, legally given youtubers the right to do what they are doing.

 

[Girlstar30]

We dont know if people have been warned. They may have. DVC might be taking things slow for legals reasons. Add personal use checkbox and let the commercial renters check that box for 11 months. They also clearly caught on to the renters that were leaving themselves on the reservation as lead guest as a workaround. I think DVC is much smarter than we realize. Just 3 days ago I was in the pack of they are doing nothing, yesterday I changed my mind.

Yeah I think they know everything too just wont believe anything is truly being done about it until I hear reports of it actually happening and im not saying there wont be eventually we just havent seen anything yet so none of this really means anything to me until we do

 

[Tatebeck]

Yep as I have said many times before, Disney wants (and has the ability per the documents) the right to look at any member that keeps renting reservations and use their discretion to decide if they feel that it is being used in a commercial way, and then do something about it.

That has always been in the documents. It doesn't matter if members think they are renting few enough, it matters what Disney thinks is too much. And we have all signed off on that. I'm just glad we got a little clarity of what they use to help make sure we stay kosher.