Now that Cars Land opens, Disney announces cutbacks in domestic spending

[DCTooTall]

He may be talking about the new changes to Annual Passes. 10 percent increases and the elimination of a child Annual Pass. In this case now, you go from free directly to adult pricing at 3 years of age.


Hummm.....

I wonder if the long range plan is to eliminate children's passes for ALL ticket media....and this is just a giant trial to see how it goes?

honestly.... i wouldn't put it past them. Jr pricing went away how long ago?

 

[dairylives]

hilarious

 

[lockedoutlogic]

hilarious

I guess you're other comment was removed...but i got it via email...

I'm very fair in the games...if i'm wrong...give it to me.

But it was pretty snitty if you look at it....and it was in response to what i believe to be a blatantly greedy change in pricing.
It was my opinion...but one grounded in experience and alot of time studying all sides of the business in Orlando - as both a hobby and for a time as an employee.

The Walt Disney Company is a publically traded international corporation that places the quest for profit as its #1 priority - because that's what all companies of this nature are obligated to do for shares.

Some people love them...some people hate them - but keyboard mavericks that defend their pricing - which it appears this was a case of - are a hard group to accept.

prove me wrong...but make sure you have it right. I'm rough...but pretty fair if you go back and look at the tape.

 

[HPotter]

Slow down on the whole not spending any money rants.
As per the WD annual report:

Capital expenditures for Parks and Resorts:
2008 793M
2009 1B
2010 1.2B
2011 2.2B

The newspaper article ends with expectations of 1.5B (also notes it may be conservative) for captial spend in 2014. So in essence they are cutting back to 2010-2011 levels. Which is still A LARGE PERCENT OF TOTAL PARK PROFITS.

Alos keep in mind that a the new Avatar land is expected to be 500M. So they could (which of course would not happen for many reasons), spend all their capital each year in building 3 Avatar sixed expansions per year..

1.5B is not chump change...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Slow down on the whole not spending any money rants.
As per the WD annual report:

Capital expenditures for Parks and Resorts:
2008 793M
2009 1B
2010 1.2B
2011 2.2B

The newspaper article ends with expectations of 1.5B (also notes it may be conservative) for captial spend in 2014. So in essence they are cutting back to 2010-2011 levels. Which is still A LARGE PERCENT OF TOTAL PARK PROFITS.

Alos keep in mind that a the new Avatar land is expected to be 500M. So they could (which of course would not happen for many reasons), spend all their capital each year in building 3 Avatar sixed expansions per year..

1.5B is not chump change...

1.5 Billion us not chump change to most

But what is it to a Dow 30 company?

It's all a matter of perspective...and I can see validity to both sides of the argument.

I look at it from a point of stagnation at WDW...they spent a big hunk on fantasyland...which is in no way the highest priority...and have not placed enough emphasis on the other 3 parks...which are in more need of real expansion to accommodate comfort and generate more demand...

so while the anti "side" may be overboard...the number spinning end of it is a little naive...in my opinion

 

[DCTooTall]

Slow down on the whole not spending any money rants.
As per the WD annual report:

Capital expenditures for Parks and Resorts:
2008 793M
2009 1B
2010 1.2B
2011 2.2B

The newspaper article ends with expectations of 1.5B (also notes it may be conservative) for captial spend in 2014. So in essence they are cutting back to 2010-2011 levels. Which is still A LARGE PERCENT OF TOTAL PARK PROFITS.

Alos keep in mind that a the new Avatar land is expected to be 500M. So they could (which of course would not happen for many reasons), spend all their capital each year in building 3 Avatar sixed expansions per year..

1.5B is not chump change...

1.5 Billion us not chump change to most

But what is it to a Dow 30 company?

It's all a matter of perspective...and I can see validity to both sides of the argument.

I look at it from a point of stagnation at WDW...they spent a big hunk on fantasyland...which is in no way the highest priority...and have not placed enough emphasis on the other 3 parks...which are in more need of real expansion to accommodate comfort and generate more demand...

so while the anti "side" may be overboard...the number spinning end of it is a little naive...in my opinion

Also, Remember that Capital Expenditures don't just include new attractions, but lot of other money spent on "boring" things within the parks.

Some maintenance can be classified as a capital expenditure.

New buses to replace the aging bus fleet? A Capital Expenditure.

Refurbing a ride or building? Capital Expenditure.


Disney Parks and Resorts in the US Alone has 6 major parks, 2 minor parks, 2 shopping districts, Multiple hotels, DVC Properties, and a Cruise line (as well as an Island)....not to mention all the roads and infrastructure and other misc stuff under their control. That 1.5b covers all of that... including the new attractions in the new Carsland and Fantasyland Expansion, the Hawaiin DVC, and 2 new cruise ships, which they did not have in 2010/2011.

Here's another way to look at it. How much NEW stuff did we get between 2008 and 2009? That was before we started to see the ramp up of all major construction projects in the US and abroad. Now, look at all the stuff added to the DP&R portfolio since then which will be competing for capital dollars.... and you can start to see how 1.5b may not go as far as you think it might when spread over as many worldwide properties.

 

[tjkraz]

Now, look at all the stuff added to the DP&R portfolio since then which will be competing for capital dollars.... .

Building cruise ships and resorts (Aulani, AoA, Disneyland Hotel) are effectively one-time projects from a capital improvements standpoint. They will require maintenance and upkeep, but that will come from different expense categories.

In terms of capital improvements, we're still left with dollars being spread amongst the same 6 US theme parks, waterparks, DTD, etc. we've had for 10 years now.

Exactly where the dollars will fall in 2013 and beyond is purely speculative. But the numbers "HPotter" presented demonstrate that reduced funding does not immediately mean the theme parks will get shafted. Capital spending increased nearly 400% in just 3 years, largely due to the ships and Aulani. Disney can easily come down from the $2.2B spent in '11 (and more in '12) and continue to build out the parks at a reasonable rate. Not a rate that will pacify all but this isn't a doom and gloom situation either.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Building cruise ships and resorts (Aulani, AoA, Disneyland Hotel) are effectively one-time projects from a capital improvements standpoint. They will require maintenance and upkeep, but that will come from different expense categories.

In terms of capital improvements, we're still left with dollars being spread amongst the same 6 US theme parks, waterparks, DTD, etc. we've had for 10 years now.

Exactly where the dollars will fall in 2013 and beyond is purely speculative. But the numbers "HPotter" presented demonstrate that reduced funding does not immediately mean the theme parks will get shafted. Capital spending increased nearly 400% in just 3 years, largely due to the ships and Aulani. Disney can easily come down from the $2.2B spent in '11 (and more in '12) and continue to build out the parks at a reasonable rate. Not a rate that will pacify all but this isn't a doom and gloom situation either.

I can agree with both sides of this argument...but we'll have to wait and see...

while no one - including me - can out and out bury them for publically stating reduction in capital spending levels (though...that is poor taste to the consumer...as those types of announcements are made for investors and their interests are contrary to the consumers who spend the money that they profit off of..)
you can not - also - come out and support their move as "intelligent" or even "good management"

as i stated before...there may be a silver lining to a reduction in spending. No new cruiseships that serve few and an embarassing (my opinion) vacation club venture in Oahu where they spend about a half a billion "re-creating" the lush environment of hawaii that you can find right outside of the gates in its natural form...

So maybe they will still work quality attractions into the plan and flesh out what needs to be fleshed out at WDW. particularly AK in urgency beyond this Avatar "whatever it is", more at Studios, and some new life into EPCOT...as it is slipping (which the surprising attendance numbers have brought to the forefront recently)

But maybe they'll do NOTHING....as we saw from 2002-2005 and again from 2008-present.
or maybe this budget is on transporation spending - new double buses to really pack em in fantasyland - while the monorail continues to degrade.
or maybe its ground work for that idiotic flamingo crossing or the construction of a bentley dealership at Golden Oaks.

there are two sides of this: the creative people and the money people...some of us sway in the middle...but both have legitimate causes for concern/optimism at this point.

 

[johnGorski]

Next Gen is suppose to cost over $1 Billion, this has to be included in these numbers.

 

[dairylives]

I guess you're other comment was removed...but i got it via email...

I'm very fair in the games...if i'm wrong...give it to me.

But it was pretty snitty if you look at it....and it was in response to what i believe to be a blatantly greedy change in pricing.
It was my opinion...but one grounded in experience and alot of time studying all sides of the business in Orlando - as both a hobby and for a time as an employee.

The Walt Disney Company is a publically traded international corporation that places the quest for profit as its #1 priority - because that's what all companies of this nature are obligated to do for shares.

Some people love them...some people hate them - but keyboard mavericks that defend their pricing - which it appears this was a case of - are a hard group to accept.

prove me wrong...but make sure you have it right. I'm rough...but pretty fair if you go back and look at the tape.

I've just noticed that there isn't a thread on this New/rumors board that doesn't have some sort of condescending/snotty/sarcastic post from you. Thing is, you're often spot on with what you have to say, you just come across really poorly. I know its not my place to call you out on it, so i changed it; but on a slow work day, browsing the boards, its easy to see patterns i guess.

 

[Mouseaholic!!!]

I've just noticed that there isn't a thread on this New/rumors board that doesn't have some sort of condescending/snotty/sarcastic post from you. Thing is, you're often spot on with what you have to say, you just come across really poorly. I know its not my place to call you out on it, so i changed it; but on a slow work day, browsing the boards, its easy to see patterns i guess.

Ok. I may be out of bounds here and I don't mean to speak for ....... Mr. Logic.

However, DH and I love Disney probably more than 90 percent of the readers here. We know what it CAN be. We have been fans and WDW guests since the 70's. First as singles with friends and now as marrieds. But.....we aren't blind (especially when seen from the inside for 33 years).

You may not like what he says, but he us more often spot on. I suspect he speaks through a Disney- broken heart. We know the feeling.

You see, Disney COULD be so much more and still satisfy the all consuming stock holders.

........just my thoughts.


Aw heck. He will tell you himself. After all, this is a place for an exchange of ideas and opinions not a forced march.

 

[Mouseaholic!!!]

Oh yea.

Reviews of Cars Land are great! We pushed back our DL trip to let crowds die down. Let's hope it dies down faster than HP has!!

The whispers have started already. "what about the REST of DCA which is not up to Disney standards? We agree with their view of DCA. I always like spending part of the day there.....because no one else was there! It was a great break for the few years i was in a scooter after my accident. Scooters are tough in crowds---never worry at DCA in the past!

I guess we will now start our days with Cars Land, fastpass WOC. Play in DL mid day and we will still have a quiet, forgotten part of DL in the afternoon. Hey, maybe not so bad to have a forgotten section after all!

Again, Orlando paper review.

 

[tjkraz]

However, DH and I love Disney probably more than 90 percent of the readers here.

Well, even though I've apparently been branded one of the 90%, I hope I'm still permitted to chime in on such discussions.

No rational theme park follower is expecting a renaissance circa 1966. There are too many bean counters in power and Wall Street holds too much sway over the board and upper level execs.

But getting back to the initial crux of this thread, lower capital spending does not equate to further staffing cuts and self-loading attractions.

 

[dairylives]

Ok. I may be out of bounds here and I don't mean to speak for ....... Mr. Logic.

However, DH and I love Disney probably more than 90 percent of the readers here. We know what it CAN be. We have been fans and WDW guests since the 70's. First as singles with friends and now as marrieds. But.....we aren't blind (especially when seen from the inside for 33 years).

You may not like what he says, but he us more often spot on. I suspect he speaks through a Disney- broken heart. We know the feeling.

You see, Disney COULD be so much more and still satisfy the all consuming stock holders.

........just my thoughts.


Aw heck. He will tell you himself. After all, this is a place for an exchange of ideas and opinions not a forced march.

Like i said, he is often right. His problem is his rude posting style and oddly eager and enthusiastic trashing of others when they are a bit more optimistic or "Disney is magic" types. We can all sit here and agree that there are problems, which is what we should do, but the way he presents himself is almost consistently mean-spirited; thats not something I appreciate personally, regardless of its validity.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I've just noticed that there isn't a thread on this New/rumors board that doesn't have some sort of condescending/snotty/sarcastic post from you. Thing is, you're often spot on with what you have to say, you just come across really poorly. I know its not my place to call you out on it, so i changed it; but on a slow work day, browsing the boards, its easy to see patterns i guess.

I don't know...i think we NEED a little grit around here.

Like a contending hockey team. it's not necessarily "disney-broken heartedness"...and its not like i'm a disgruntled ex employee (though i am an ex employee) or spiteful for them making money (though i do think they always toe the line between business and robbery)...its just i think we (everybody) need to stop trying to make everything "fun" and "happy" and start to look for the underlying reality behind the hype.

even if you're talking about vacation...

the fact is that WDW used to pay respectable wages and value quality over volume...now they don't. That eats at me alot. It's hard to just accept that what was once good for many is now bad for most. That is "devolution" at WDW...and indicative of a problem in the world as a whole.
they have stripped the cupboards bare in many ways and now are simply looking to increase volume and revenue without heed to the effect on the experiences.

I could go on with a novel here...so i'll go back to where it pertains to this thread.

The fact is...with the amount of money that TWDC makes...a reduction in capital investment is laughable. But i'll wait and see what that exactly means...it may be - as some have suggested - a pleasant surprise when it plays out.

But 5 years of nothing is starting to become the norm for WDW...it is not treated as the flagship location - it is treated as the pack mule that holds all the weight while everyone spends all their time caring for the poor, sick little children around the globe. The reason why california adventure, studios paris, and hong kong need all this emergency attention is because they created the emergencies...and to be honest: i resent the "let the stupid east coasters, brits, and brazillians in florida keep footing the bill" mentality...its wearing thin.

And i know what the response to that is: Fantasyland.
Well...i'm going to be "snitty, sarcastic, and condescending"...a little...but lets just get to it. Fantasyland - is probably about 19th on the list of priorities of areas that needed a rehab. And i may be underestimating that. There was no reason to gut fantasyland over construction at mgm or animal kingdom...certainly not over something at future world at EPCOT.
So why? To increase park capacity and pack 25,000 more gift-shop craving souls into the money maker park. More land, more magic...more magic = more revenue.
I'll probably love walking around there - if i can every actually make it into the area - but that doesn't matter. It was very self serving and insulting to me...squeeze money from the rocks at magic kingdom when many other areas of the property needed the love.
they have basically closed pleasure island....they closed river country...they have gutted imagination beyond usefulness and closed wonders of life...many of the things already in existence are in horrible disrepair....and not just niche stuff...everest and splash mountain...the great movie ride...

If it costs more to maintain the same standards - particularly employee quality and maintenance - and the prices went up - i would accept that an hand over the plastic.
But it is costing much more for a place that has been slashed across the board.

That is where the consumer should snap out of the haze and push back a little. It's going to get worse. And eventually somebody will notice that it just isn't what was built anymore...somekind of walmarted meat market instead. Everybody wants everything quick, easy, light, and carefree...its a path to ruin. I think there needs to be a push back. That may make me the mayor of Downerville around here...but i would venture that i'm far from alone.

I'm definitely abrasive...but i also put alot of thought into the discussion and do alot of digging to look for the angles.
i worked there...i go there constantly...had a wedding there...bought their timeshare.
Am i calling a foul because i'm Debbie Downer? or perhaps i'm a keen observer?

you decide

 

[Mouseaholic!!!]

Well, even though I've apparently been branded one of the 90%, I hope I'm still permitted to chime in on such discussions.

No rational theme park follower is expecting a renaissance circa 1966. There are too many bean counters in power and Wall Street holds too much sway over the board and upper level execs.

But getting back to the initial crux of this thread, lower capital spending does not equate to further staffing cuts and self-loading attractions. [/QUOTE

Spoken here with respect....

You remind me of my terrier. He never drops the tug toy first either.

 

[johnGorski]

I don't know...i think we NEED a little grit around here.

Like a contending hockey team. it's not necessarily "disney-broken heartedness"...and its not like i'm a disgruntled ex employee (though i am an ex employee) or spiteful for them making money (though i do think they always toe the line between business and robbery)...its just i think we (everybody) need to stop trying to make everything "fun" and "happy" and start to look for the underlying reality behind the hype.

even if you're talking about vacation...

the fact is that WDW used to pay respectable wages and value quality over volume...now they don't. That eats at me alot. It's hard to just accept that what was once good for many is now bad for most. That is "devolution" at WDW...and indicative of a problem in the world as a whole.
they have stripped the cupboards bare in many ways and now are simply looking to increase volume and revenue without heed to the effect on the experiences.

I could go on with a novel here...so i'll go back to where it pertains to this thread.

The fact is...with the amount of money that TWDC makes...a reduction in capital investment is laughable. But i'll wait and see what that exactly means...it may be - as some have suggested - a pleasant surprise when it plays out.

But 5 years of nothing is starting to become the norm for WDW...it is not treated as the flagship location - it is treated as the pack mule that holds all the weight while everyone spends all their time caring for the poor, sick little children around the globe. The reason why california adventure, studios paris, and hong kong need all this emergency attention is because they created the emergencies...and to be honest: i resent the "let the stupid east coasters, brits, and brazillians in florida keep footing the bill" mentality...its wearing thin.

And i know what the response to that is: Fantasyland.
Well...i'm going to be "snitty, sarcastic, and condescending"...a little...but lets just get to it. Fantasyland - is probably about 19th on the list of priorities of areas that needed a rehab. And i may be underestimating that. There was no reason to gut fantasyland over construction at mgm or animal kingdom...certainly not over something at future world at EPCOT.
So why? To increase park capacity and pack 25,000 more gift-shop craving souls into the money maker park. More land, more magic...more magic = more revenue.
I'll probably love walking around there - if i can every actually make it into the area - but that doesn't matter. It was very self serving and insulting to me...squeeze money from the rocks at magic kingdom when many other areas of the property needed the love.
they have basically closed pleasure island....they closed river country...they have gutted imagination beyond usefulness and closed wonders of life...many of the things already in existence are in horrible disrepair....and not just niche stuff...everest and splash mountain...the great movie ride...

If it costs more to maintain the same standards - particularly employee quality and maintenance - and the prices went up - i would accept that an hand over the plastic.
But it is costing much more for a place that has been slashed across the board.

That is where the consumer should snap out of the haze and push back a little. It's going to get worse. And eventually somebody will notice that it just isn't what was built anymore...somekind of walmarted meat market instead. Everybody wants everything quick, easy, light, and carefree...its a path to ruin. I think there needs to be a push back. That may make me the mayor of Downerville around here...but i would venture that i'm far from alone.

I'm definitely abrasive...but i also put alot of thought into the discussion and do alot of digging to look for the angles.
i worked there...i go there constantly...had a wedding there...bought their timeshare.
Am i calling a foul because i'm Debbie Downer? or perhaps i'm a keen observer?

you decide

IMHO you lockedoutlogic gives great insite on these threads. They "disney" gave a 500 million-750million dollar price tag on the FLE Project. Now that is almost like the white house paying 1k for a toliet seat comparison. I am finding 100million for a little mermaid ride is a little our of wack.

 

[DCTooTall]

Next Gen is suppose to cost over $1 Billion, this has to be included in these numbers.

I'm not sure that Next Gen is going to all hit in one year's cap budget. If nothing more, we already know that some things under the Next Gen label have already been built (HM Queue, Dumbo wait area), and others have had their core technologies developed and have gone thru several rounds of testing (RFID ticket media, fastpasses, etc).

And i know what the response to that is: Fantasyland.
Well...i'm going to be "snitty, sarcastic, and condescending"...a little...but lets just get to it. Fantasyland - is probably about 19th on the list of priorities of areas that needed a rehab. And i may be underestimating that. There was no reason to gut fantasyland over construction at mgm or animal kingdom...certainly not over something at future world at EPCOT.
So why? To increase park capacity and pack 25,000 more gift-shop craving souls into the money maker park. More land, more magic...more magic = more revenue.
I'll probably love walking around there - if i can every actually make it into the area - but that doesn't matter. It was very self serving and insulting to me...squeeze money from the rocks at magic kingdom when many other areas of the property needed the love.
they have basically closed pleasure island....they closed river country...they have gutted imagination beyond usefulness and closed wonders of life...many of the things already in existence are in horrible disrepair....and not just niche stuff...everest and splash mountain...the great movie ride...

I'll throw a little defense of Splash's current state in here, just to play devil's advocate. We all have heard the reports of Splash being in a really sorry state right now, and I don't doubt it. On the flip side, as a major attraction which heavily involves massive amounts of water, It's going to be prone to more issue than a nice dry attraction, or even something like POTC or IaSW which utilize boats to get around, but all the show elements are off to the side in dry areas. Since BTMRR was closed for several months getting it's refurb, Splash's annual cleanup/refurb was canceled this year to avoid having 2 of the 3 Mountains closed at the same time. As such, I can forgive a little more wear&tear on the attraction than usual this year......As long as they don't skimp on next year's regularly scheduled refurb.


Also, I totally agree that Lockedoutlogic provides a very good and useful voice in the conversation here. As a site catering to Disney Fans, sometimes it's very easy for everybody to fall into the trap of rose colored glasses when looking at the parks and everything the company does. It's helpful for all of us that we have someone who obviously cares about the park's, who can also provide a well reasoned and thought out counterpoint to all the Disney Can Do no Harm voices which can populate this place. It's very easy to ignore the occasional troll, or someone who just throws a random "Disney totally screwed up with Stitch's Great Escape!" or "Free Dining ruined Disney Dining!" into the conversation. But it's very difficult to ignore someone who can not only express a viewpoint that Disney has let themselves slip, but can also back it up with reasons why they believe what they do using comparisons and other detailed information and facts. Even if you don't necessarily agree with everything that person says (or how they say it), It does force you to maybe step outside the Disney's Perfect bubble and look at things a little more objectively.

IMHO you lockedoutlogic gives great insite on these threads. They "disney" gave a 500 million-750million dollar price tag on the FLE Project. Now that is almost like the white house paying 1k for a toliet seat comparison. I am finding 100million for a little mermaid ride is a little our of wack.

Well... 100 Million makes a bit more sense when you figure they literally built 2 of the same ride at the same time. The set pieces and animatronics for the Orlando ride have been sitting in a warehouse for months waiting for the building to be ready since they built everthing at the same time as the DCA attraction.

Which does bring up a very interesting question. How did the Disney Accountants come up with their cost estimates for the DCA Rebuild and FLE with the shared elements like Little Mermaid? Did they split that 100Mil between the 2 parks (50mil a piece towards their 1bil rebuild of DCA and 50mil towards the FLE costs?), Did they charge it all to one park? (100mil for FLE and nothing towards DCA? or visa versa?)..... or to inflate the numbers for both parks to make the numbers sound more impressive to the public, Did they double-bill the attraction? (100mil out of the DCA 1B, and 100Mil out of the FLE's 500Mil)

We already know that the ride System for Car's big attraction, Radiator Springs Racers, Was already pretty much paid for and developed for Test Track, and paid off long ago..... So did they include some of that initial development cost into the $1b pricetag for DCA?

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Geez, if Mr. Locked is the prime doomsday screamer around here, I guess it's a good thing I seldom post anymore ... I'd be, well, I don't know ... and I started out on this site as an Eisner apologist!!!

Mr. Locked, keep it up, sarcasm and all. The fools out there that continue to see Disney as "magical" deserve a dose of reality.

 

[dairylives]

Its funny to me that some people around like to use "skepticism" as an excuse to be rude to others on this board. It's just kind of sad that you think its some kind of duty of yours to "dose" these "fools" who simply have a more positive outlook on a vacation destination with your own brand of snark and condescension.


But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people like coming here to get told they are "wrong" constantly by holier-than-thou posters. Maybe these people don't find name-calling childish and petty. I could be wrong though.