Not Happy with Availability

[ILoveMyDVC]

Obviously, by 98, one could accept $ for reservations. Without the internet, there would not have been an active market. Friends to friends. Friends to family or co-workers. I still believe that the increasing properties and the ease of renting points - not to mention the commercial players are why availability is what it is.
There used to be a holiday list. Say no twice and you were removed. The rules have changed for some of us. We can always sell - perhaps for profit. I don't know. I am sure that we have the right to express an opinion about our membership.

Suggesting to members that they should have known about the explosive growth of either the internet or DVC is a little disingenuous. Every time I come back to the DIS, there is a shaming, you-can't-question-anything vibe that eludes me.

 

[Dean]

I only have the rules from 1998 forward in my files. There is a clause about not receiving compensation for transferring points in the 1998 docs. I recall one in the earlier documents prohibiting $ for non-member stays.

This has always been there for transfers, you are incorrect on the other. I am looking at the 1993 POS. Under exhibit I to the Declaration of Condominium it specifically states that rentals are allowed. 4.1 "DVD's approval of a rental by a Club Member is not required" & "...Club Members are permitted to rent their occupancy rights on terms and conditions that they may establish".

 

[SWRdtWD]

I hear last minute availabity for dvc is non-existent...as in other than Saratoga, you won't get any multiple
Night reservations outside of 3 or 4
Months out.

If i understand the system correctly...as they continue to sell contracts - even to new developments - it bloats the overall pool exponentially...so while sales were light over the first 10 years of the program...they have more than caught up and filled out the pool since. I would think that will not change...but become more restrictive.

 

[Dean]

Obviously, by 98, one could accept $ for reservations. Without the internet, there would not have been an active market. Friends to friends. Friends to family or co-workers. I still believe that the increasing properties and the ease of renting points - not to mention the commercial players are why availability is what it is.
There used to be a holiday list. Say no twice and you were removed. The rules have changed for some of us. We can always sell - perhaps for profit. I don't know. I am sure that we have the right to express an opinion about our membership.

Suggesting to members that they should have know about the explosive growth of either the internet or DVC is a little disingenuous. Every time I come back to the DIS, there is a shaming, you-can't-question-anything vibe that eludes me.

I don't recall how I rented initially but it wasn't to someone I had direct knowledge of personally. Might have been through Prodigy as I wasn't on AOL. I can tell you that over the years I've stated here a number of times that the availability was far better than expected. Common sense would suggest that a sold our resort using points should cause availability issues. Actually I don't think renting has a big part of the availability issue, SSR is almost certainly the largest single factor at 7 months with some effect back to day one eleven months out at other resorts. Members need to understand what they've agreed to, this is what we signed up for whether we knew it or not initially.

 

[CarolMN]

I don't recall how I rented initially but it wasn't to someone I had direct knowledge of personally. Might have been through Prodigy as I wasn't on AOL. I can tell you that over the years I've stated here a number of times that the availability was far better than expected. Common sense would suggest that a sold our resort using points should cause availability issues. Actually I don't think renting has a big part of the availability issue, SSR is almost certainly the largest single factor at 7 months with some effect back to day one eleven months out at other resorts. Members need to understand what they've agreed to, this is what we signed up for whether we knew it or not initially.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this - IMO, the growth of renting has most definitely had a significant impact on short notice availability. There is currently more demand for DVC rentals than the brokers can fill. (There doesn't seem to be any issue getting rid of points here on the DIS R/T Board, either). The brokers have made it quite easy to rent out points that otherwise were expiring. As those who seek a rental catch on to the booking windows, more and more of them are booking farther ahead. Those that don't book early enough are happy to accept SSR (or anywhere on site if there is availability). Lack of short notice availability for studios at SSR are an indication of this increasing demand from non-owners.

While it has always been a challenge to book short notice, those who traditionally have been able to book on short notice fairly easily, now find themselves competing with the non-owning public. Yes, those folks are using someone's points, but those points would probably NOT be chasing last minute availability if not for the renters. A good share of them book after the 7 month window opens - Ask the brokers. They'll tell you.

I do agree that SSR had a large impact on 11/7 month availability at the near park resorts. The resorts that are not near-park also have had an impact, but prior to the large increase in rental requests, most could almost always find something at the larger non near-park resorts without too much trouble.

The 60 Day Tool seldom shows any availability for a studio or 1 bedroom at WDW. (And perhaps surprising to some, the Poly bungalows seem to be gone also. FWIW, I've found that there are usually more 3 bedroom nights available at SSR than Poly bungalow nights - according to the 60 Day Tool).

Of course, we will hear about those who manage to piece together something on short notice and for the very determined, that does happen. But no one will convince me that it's as easy as it was just a few years ago. JMHO. YMMV.

I do agree that the system is what we signed up for and that it's the nature of the beast. That doesn't make anyone who longs for the "way it used to be" wrong for feeling that way. Sometimes it just doesn't help to be told that "we should have known" (even if that is 100% true).

 

[SWRdtWD]

I think in the longterm they'll eliminate renting all together...you will have to be a "travel with" from the contract for any bookings.

And then disney may rent direct through themselves or more likely a "partner"

They have never showed any longterm
Tolerance for anyone making revenue on an inch of ground they control other than themselves unless it comes with a check for operational costs.

They've allowed it to go on a lot longer than I would have guessed.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

I do not believe they can restrict rental, legally.

 

[CarolMN]

I think in the longterm they'll eliminate renting all together...you will have to be a "travel with" from the contract for any bookings.

And then disney may rent direct through themselves or more likely a "partner"

They have never showed any longterm
Tolerance for anyone making revenue on an inch of ground they control other than themselves unless it comes with a check for operational costs.

They've allowed it to go on a lot longer than I would have guessed.

I do not believe they can restrict rental, legally.

The purchase documents expressly ALLOW renting. There is an admonition that you would be competing with Disney for "customers" and a statement disallowing "commercial" use. Commercial is not defined. Current "internet" wisdom says you will be subject to an audit of usage if you make 20 or more reservations in someone else's name.

 

[SL6827]

I do not believe they can restrict rental, legally.

You know, if they could, it seems like they already would have, perhaps?

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Let me clarify: I do not believe they can legally ban rental or require relationship to the occupant of the unit you book. They can reasonably regulate it. And the law can require information about this in a real estate contract. Many things in RE contracts are required by law.

 

[crisi]

They could discourage renting if they wanted to. That they haven't means they don't care to.

Renters are not eligible for Magical Express or Extra Magic Hours. Renters cannot use the dining plan. Renters receive their room assignment after members - so don't bother making a room request - you'll be looking at the dumpster......those sorts of things would make renting less attractive and are all within Disney's rights.

Here is the truth - Disney wants that room occupied. They have a better chance of having it occupied if you rent it out than if they try to through CRO. Occupied rooms bring cash into the parks. The DVC rental market poached people staying at moderates and values, but that opens up those rooms for more guests at moderates and values - and they can poach those people from offsite hotels by offering free dining and EMH and 60 day fastpasses. That is far more important to them then someone who owns at VAKL being able to get a BCV room at seven months.

As always, when asking what Disney "should" do - follow the money and ask "what's in it for Disney." There is no upside to Disney to discouraging or forbidding rentals - unless their own hotel occupancy is weak enough that they need to pull people back to CRO rentals. Which it hasn't been.

 

[Dean]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this - IMO, the growth of renting has most definitely had a significant impact on short notice availability. There is currently more demand for DVC rentals than the brokers can fill. (There doesn't seem to be any issue getting rid of points here on the DIS R/T Board, either). The brokers have made it quite easy to rent out points that otherwise were expiring. As those who seek a rental catch on to the booking windows, more and more of them are booking farther ahead. Those that don't book early enough are happy to accept SSR (or anywhere on site if there is availability). Lack of short notice availability for studios at SSR are an indication of this increasing demand from non-owners.

I'm not sure we disagree that much. There are many factors including renting, more knowledgeable members, the spread of resort demand and the LARGE resorts where the demand is lower and the likelihood of trying to reserve at 7 months is much higher. All of these factors have an effect. I do believe that SSR is the biggest issue by far of all of these on both the 7 and 11 month window, but to me that's OK.

I do agree that the system is what we signed up for and that it's the nature of the beast. That doesn't make anyone who longs for the "way it used to be" wrong for feeling that way. Sometimes it just doesn't help to be told that "we should have known" (even if that is 100% true).

Or the decorations, cloth napkins and colored towels at THE Disney Vacation Club. Whether it helps a given person or not, it is the reality and thus reasonable to point out.

I do not believe they can restrict rental, legally.

Technically and legally they can't. I'm sure there are things they could do to decrease it if they chose. Probably the most effective thing they could do would be to close down the brokers which I do think they could do.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

How would DVC rent what they owned if they prohibited renting?

Personally I don't think it will be disallowed nor that it even could be disallowed. I also think more people are getting wiser about their points. Information has made them aware they can rent and not just let points expire. Information has said that renting and paying cash for other vacations is a good way to go. And I always go back to online booking. Now owners can see the availability and pick out an available stay compared to previously when there was a lot of thought that there wasn't any last minute availability or it was just difficult as you had to direct MS to search for certain days until you hit on some availability as not all CM's seemed willing or able to search over a month or two to let you know what was there. Those who were more persistent could find the availability but I think lots just gave up.

There are a few other things that add to booking difficulty too such as more view categories. At SSR if a couple if rooms went back that were consecutive days they would have meant 1 room was open for a length of time. Now it may be a couple of days in a standard view and a couple in a premium view. If someone is looking for a couple of nights they likely won't want to move so then they say there's no last minute availability for 2 days in the same room. If waitlists don't line up exactly to the view they won't match and so on.

 

[Turn the Page]

They could discourage renting if they wanted to. That they haven't means they don't care to.

Renters are not eligible for Magical Express or Extra Magic Hours. Renters cannot use the dining plan. Renters receive their room assignment after members - so don't bother making a room request - you'll be looking at the dumpster......those sorts of things would make renting less attractive and are all within Disney's rights.

Here is the truth - Disney wants that room occupied. They have a better chance of having it occupied if you rent it out than if they try to through CRO. Occupied rooms bring cash into the parks. The DVC rental market poached people staying at moderates and values, but that opens up those rooms for more guests at moderates and values - and they can poach those people from offsite hotels by offering free dining and EMH and 60 day fastpasses. That is far more important to them then someone who owns at VAKL being able to get a BCV room at seven months.

As always, when asking what Disney "should" do - follow the money and ask "what's in it for Disney." There is no upside to Disney to discouraging or forbidding rentals - unless their own hotel occupancy is weak enough that they need to pull people back to CRO rentals. Which it hasn't been.

The bolded is not true at all. Renters absolutely can use Magical Express and book dining plans. We have rented through David's several times and always use Magical Express. We don't ever use the dining plan but there is information on David's site on how to book it and Magical Express both. I don't know about when they make room assignments but we have never had a view of the dumpster and normally get pretty close to what we request.

ETA: Also, renters can take advantage of Extra Magic Hours. On our last trip I was in the Magic Kingdom until 1 AM one night on EMH. Renters are eligible for all the benefits of any other person staying on site. About the only thing they can't do is go to the Top of the World Lounge and can't make changes to their reservation like members can.

You can't book the dining plan yourself, the owner has to do that. But once you get the reservation number you can add it to MDE and make your own fastpasses and ADR's and everything.

 

[CarolynFH]

The bolded is not true at all. Renters absolutely can use Magical Express and book dining plans. We have rented through David's several times and always use Magical Express. We don't ever use the dining plan but there is information on David's site on how to book it and Magical Express both. I don't know about when they make room assignments but we have never had a view of the dumpster and normally get pretty close to what we request.

ETA: Also, renters can take advantage of Extra Magic Hours. On our last trip I was in the Magic Kingdom until 1 AM one night on EMH. Renters are eligible for all the benefits of any other person staying on site. About the only thing they can't do is go to the Top of the World Lounge and can't make changes to their reservation like members can.

You can't book the dining plan yourself, the owner has to do that. But once you get the reservation number you can add it to MDE and make your own fastpasses and ADR's and everything.

I think @crisi was saying those are things Disney could do to discourage renting, not that those are current restrictions.

 

[Turn the Page]

I think @crisi was saying those are things Disney could do to discourage renting, not that those are current restrictions.

Oh, I see. My mistake.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

The problem is that those restrictions would apply to cash DVC reservations as well.

Functionally, those are a form of point rental controlled by the Mouse.

 

[Dean]

How would DVC rent what they owned if they prohibited renting?

Personally I don't think it will be disallowed nor that it even could be disallowed. I also think more people are getting wiser about their points. Information has made them aware they can rent and not just let points expire. Information has said that renting and paying cash for other vacations is a good way to go. And I always go back to online booking. Now owners can see the availability and pick out an available stay compared to previously when there was a lot of thought that there wasn't any last minute availability or it was just difficult as you had to direct MS to search for certain days until you hit on some availability as not all CM's seemed willing or able to search over a month or two to let you know what was there. Those who were more persistent could find the availability but I think lots just gave up.

There are a few other things that add to booking difficulty too such as more view categories. At SSR if a couple if rooms went back that were consecutive days they would have meant 1 room was open for a length of time. Now it may be a couple of days in a standard view and a couple in a premium view. If someone is looking for a couple of nights they likely won't want to move so then they say there's no last minute availability for 2 days in the same room. If waitlists don't line up exactly to the view they won't match and so on.

There is a principle in Condo law that specifically applies in FL from what I understand. That is that what applies to owners also applies to management. I first encountered this issue a few years ago when I read an article about a condo that tried to limit short term renting of a week and require owners rent a month or more at a time. All the while they were doing weekly rentals. It gets a little more unclear with a timeshare, esp the way DVD has set it up, but the principle would still apply.

 

[crisi]

The problem is that those restrictions would apply to cash DVC reservations as well.

Functionally, those are a form of point rental controlled by the Mouse.

They wouldn't have to. Cash reservations would be 'CRO' reservations. Members staying in the room would be entitled to them. Guests staying with a member would be entitled to them. If you didn't pay Disney for the reservation and are not a member or staying with a member, you wouldn't get them. That would leave someone's sister who got the stay as a wedding gift with a taxi bill from the airport, but it would likely cut down on renting if Disney treated renters in a second class fashion. They won't, it isn't good business for them to do so - and to date it hasn't been their way to discriminate in that fashion with Deluxe vs. Moderate vs. Value vs. DVC guests. But if they are ever in a situation where it is good business for them to do so and they need to move those reservations back to CRO, or change their value propositions........?

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

They wouldn't have to. Cash reservations would be 'CRO' reservations. Members staying in the room would be entitled to them. Guests staying with a member would be entitled to them. If you didn't pay Disney for the reservation and are not a member or staying with a member, you wouldn't get them. That would leave someone's sister who got the stay as a wedding gift with a taxi bill from the airport, but it would likely cut down on renting if Disney treated renters in a second class fashion. They won't, it isn't good business for them to do so - and to date it hasn't been their way to discriminate in that fashion with Deluxe vs. Moderate vs. Value vs. DVC guests. But if they are ever in a situation where it is good business for them to do so and they need to move those reservations back to CRO, or change their value propositions........?

All the DVC does is essentially use CRO as a broker. It doesn't change the fact it is a rental. CRO takes a cut for doing the booking but the room is "owned" by DVC so it is being rented out for cash.