Noise Reduction

I find this interesting. I have never tested it but have always wondered why they have the extended settings in the first place- particularly on the low end. Did they address low end extended settings? The D300's lowest 'normal' setting is ISO200 but then below that is a 'Low' setting that translates to 100 in EXIF data. :confused3

The extended ranges are useful if you shoot JPG. But in RAW, nothing as far as I can tell (high end).
 
The primary argument against 14-bit (and even 12-bit) is that you don't look at bits, you look at pictures on real devices. Computer monitors and printers can generally only show about 256 different levels of brightness for each primary color. The fact that there are more levels in your file doesn't matter because those levels get rounded off when you display the file.

I remember the old monitors we used had 256 color as a setting option. But now, even the cheap monitors they give us here at work have three color setting options: 16, 24 and 32 bit. Shouldn't that mean that a 14 bit photograph should look better than a 12bit one even on the lowest setting?
 
So, if I understand the author correctly, while it may seem like you are getting more tonal precision because you are recording it with more digits of precision, you really aren't because the sensors aren't really that precise. So even if you buy they argument that there is a practical benefit to having 16,384 different shades instead of just 4,096, these cameras don't deliver that level of accuracy anyway.

This reminds me of the early '80's when 16 bit A/D converters were just coming on the market, but most of them were only good for 14 bits or less. Noise, lack of monotonicity, quantization errors, and such still affect the A/D converters in industry and in our cameras, and marketing claims still outperform the truth! ;)

boB
 
I remember the old monitors we used had 256 color as a setting option. But now, even the cheap monitors they give us here at work have three color setting options: 16, 24 and 32 bit. Shouldn't that mean that a 14 bit photograph should look better than a 12bit one even on the lowest setting?


I apologize in advance for how confusing this explanation will be.

In the old days, monitors took analog signals and could display however many different colors your computer was capable of displaying (I'm ignoring the accuracy of the analog circuitry, but that's not important). It was the computer that was limited, not the monitor. In those days, many computers had 4 color, 16 color, and 256 color modes. Those weren't 4, 16, and 256 levels of brightness for each color; they were literally that many different colors that could be displayed at one time.

Here's roughly how it worked for 256 color modes. You started with a very large box of crayons (usually either 65 thousand or 16 million). You had to choose 256 of those crayons and that became your "palette." You could draw a picture only with those crayons. You could swap out a crayon for a different one, but when you did, everything that you drew with that crayon changed to the color of the new crayon. So you could display 256 colors at one time but you could pick those colors from a larger set of colors.

After that, computers started to switch to 16-bit, 24-bit, and even 32-bit color modes. With these modes, you didn't pick a set of crayons to draw with. Instead, you could use any color from the crayon box for any pixel on the screen. With 16-bit color, you had 5 bits for red, 5 bits for blue, and 5 or 6 bits for green. With 5 bits, you have 32 different numbers. So you could have 32 brightnesses for red, for blue, and for green. That gave you 32 thousand different colors you could show.

With 24-bit color, you used 8 bits per color which works out to 256 brightness levels per color. That's what JPG files use. It gives you a choice of just over 16 million different colors for every pixel. That's probably more different colors that you can see, so there isn't much point in displaying more.

32-bit exists for two reasons - marketing hype and it's easy for computers to work with. Computers like working in clumps of 16-bits and 32-bits, so it's easy for them. They store the colors as 10-bits per color (1024 different brightness levels). That sounds better, but the DAC (the part that converts the number to an analog color signal) in just about every computer can really only handle 8 bits per color, so the extra 2 bits are pretty much wasted. In fact, many cheaper LCD displays can only deal with 6-bits.

Clearer? Probably not, but it's not important. The important bits to remember are that a JPG has only 256 brightness levels for each color, which is all that you need when displaying a picture. Having more brightness levels in a RAW file is useful if you need to manipulate an image. You can't keep adding more different levels of brightness forever. Like your eye, your sensor has a limit to how many colors it can realistically distinguish between. For the cameras with 14-bit color RAW files on the market today, the writer of the article concluded that the extra 2 bits are slicing the colors more finely than the sensor can really see, so the extra 2-bits just waste space and processor time and don't add value.
 

In fact, many cheaper LCD displays can only deal with 6-bits.

True, and 6 bits won't even get us 256 brightness levels *but* on some of the 6 bit monitors the frame rate is high enough to rapidly swap between two 6 bit boxes of crayons, giving our eyes the impression of 8 bits or more. It's an interesting bit of slight of hand (or really trompe l'oeil) that actually works.

I wonder if cameras will someday be fast enough to use the technique for expanded dynamic range?
 
FWIW, supposedly the K20D's "extended" ISO range (past 3200, up to 6400) doesn't just amplify the signal, if England's "What Digital Camera" mag is to be believed:

This top speed is set via bit-shifting (by using mathematical calculations) rather than the signal amplification of the standard ISO range.

I have no idea is this is true or if it makes a difference.

I do wonder about the "middle" ISO reaches. I set my camera to mostly top out at ISO 4500 in order to get less noise, but I wonder if it's doing something similar to the Canons, as ISO 6400 seems to have little if any more noise.
 
The title is self explanatory - what software do you use/recommend for noise reduction? I appreciate your help!
 
Quick summary....I was just downloading some pictures off my camera card and onto my PC.

These pictures were shot with my Pentax 50-200mm. I think they have a lot of noise in them.

Can any of you experts out there give your opinion as to why there would be so much noise in these pictures (or really any pictures)? The lens and camera are not even a year old yet.

Do you think it's an equipment issue or a situation issue?

First up, and I'm going to post the unpostprocessed pictures, because I took out the noise in PS when I PP'd them. We got a new pet on Thursday. I just took this picture. It's a pretty close-up shot, and of course, it's shot through water and an aquarium (don't know if that's my noise issue here):

IMGP4970.jpg


Second one is from a Cub Scout camp (inside a gym, notoriously hard to un-yellow):

IMGP4883.jpg


Third and final one is another zoom shot of my cat (watching the turtle)....

IMGP4976.jpg


I just don't like all the noise I'm getting, and frankly, I'm a little disappointed that I'm getting it. I just want to get some other people's opinions on whether you think it's my equipment or my shooting scenarios!

Thanks guys!
 
I'm going to post a follow-up here...

First of all--they don't look half as noisy on here as they do on PS!

...and second, I just noticed on the EXIF info that they were shot at 3200 ISO. That could be a part of my problem...
 
I'm going to post a follow-up here...

First of all--they don't look half as noisy on here as they do on PS!

...and second, I just noticed on the EXIF info that they were shot at 3200 ISO. That could be a part of my problem...

ISO 3200 is 100% of the problem. It is useful as a last resort, but there will always be visible noise.
 
Well, I hope that's it!

I don't want to think about it being my equipment!
 
Well, I hope that's it!

I don't want to think about it being my equipment!

Just to make you feel better, it is absolutely positively impossible for your lens to add noise. There are things that take away from the shot that the lens can do, but noise is not one of them. Also, the age of your equipment cannot in any way create more noise. These are things that are just not physically possible. Sorry to say, but the noise was caused by the user. Do you by any chance have the auto ISO set to go up to 3200? I have mine set to 800.
 
Like he said. ISO 3200 is awfully high! The K200D doesn't even go up that high, nor do the majority of today's current DSLRs. The amazing thing is that the camera is able to produce quite usable shots at such a high sensitivity and still retain all the data. (Part of that is the sensor, shared by the 6mp Nikons, part of that is their circuitry that talks to the sensor.)

I agree about Auto ISO - I usually set it to 800 on my 6mp DSLRs, and manually to go 1600 (or 3200) if the situation calls for it. The K20D makes it extremely easy to change the Auto ISO range, so with that, I tend to just adjust Auto rather than manually select the higher ISO. When I was using the 6mp ones somewhere like Disney, where I knew that I'd be doing a lot of low-light photography, I would probably set Auto ISO all the way to 1600 since I'd need it so often.

Also, certain colors seem to emphasize noise - for me, I notice it more with greens (especially the vibrant green we have for the walls in our living room!), but blues can show more too. Obviously black is a big offender in this regard since you really see the color speckles with it!
 
On a side note, my wife just walked in on me on this thread and thought that was our cat. Here he is:

IMGP1008-max_NN.jpg


IMGP0646.jpg
 
My gosh UK! The cats look like twins, don't they?!

Groucho--I have my ISO (most of the time) set on Auto ISO between 200-3200, so the camera must have picked the 3200 since it was a darker room, with only one small window.

The shots are usable, and with PS, I can get almost all the noise out, but I just wanted to make sure it wasn't my camera.

If it was my equipment, I was going to have to "freak out!" LOL....
 
Just to make you feel better, it is absolutely positively impossible for your lens to add noise. There are things that take away from the shot that the lens can do, but noise is not one of them. Also, the age of your equipment cannot in any way create more noise. These are things that are just not physically possible. Sorry to say, but the noise was caused by the user. Do you by any chance have the auto ISO set to go up to 3200? I have mine set to 800.

I missed this reply completely. Sorry about that.

I guess I was a little confusing with my OP...my main question was if my camera body (not really the lens) was malfunctioning or if zooming in could in any way affect a picture having noise.

I mentioned the age just to say that the equipment was new, and if it was malfunctioning, I wasn't going to be happy. As for lens part, in my mind, I was picturing some really sharp pictures I've seen and wondering why mine weren't turning out that crisp and clear and hoping I didn't have a sub-par lens--in other words, was the 50-200mm "less capable" of producing sharp shots?

Does that make any sense at all?

So, thank both of you for clearing up the equipment question...it's not the equipment; it's the ISO, and I think I wrote earlier that I normally set the ISO to go up to 3200.

Honestly, I've never really noticed the noise as a problem before. (Maybe the Auto feature doesn't use the 3200 setting that much.)

Thanks guys for sorting this out for me.
 
Kodak digital GEM, its a photoshop plug-in... I think you can find a free trial if you do a google search.
 
I use a photoshop plug-in "neatimage" but it doesn't seem to make much difference. I usually shoot ISO200 or less so (IMO) there isn't a lot of "noise"
 


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