No child left behind ( NOT a debate)

[tar heel]

Where are the kid's parents? The parents cannot challenge their children beyond their basic education?

Sure, parents can challenge them when they're little, but how do you challenge someone who is way beyond you intellect? I was an A student in school, but I'm not in the same league as two of my children, especially in math and science. And in many areas of our country, there are not a lot of academic enrichment programs or even museums, historic sites, etc.

I have no doubt that a more challenging program would have kept my oldest son more interested in school. For that matter, I wonder how far I could have gone. I went to rural schools and spent much of the school day reading books.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by jcemom
Do basically nothing for six hours a day, five days a week, 9 months a year...

Sorry...thought I was listening to an advertisement for a job opening at the state department of motor vehicles

Carry on....I agree with everything you're saying, by the way...Just couldn't resist the smart aleck comment

 

[jcemom]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Sorry...thought I was listening to an advertisement for a job opening at the state department of motor vehicles

 

[ToriLammy]

Originally posted by crs7568
Wow! Would you say this to the parent of a special education student? We need to realize that children are our future and work to give them more than a "basic education".

Surprisingly some special education children are gifted in addition to being handicapped. The difference is that the special education classes, therapies, etc enable a child, who would be unable otherwise, to attend school and have access to an education. Big difference in my humble opinion and experience as a parent of two children both gifted and one with CP. But let me really answer your question, if the assistance my daughter received while attending school was not able I would have done everything in my power to make sure she still got a proper education. As a matter of fact, now that she is about to start attending college I will be providing most of the assistance she requires and recieved in order to attend public school (most of her so called "special" educational needs are actually just physical assistance needs).

 

[tonyswife]

LOL. Obviously my comments are not popular here. Let me come at it from a different angle.

The way the school system is currently run, it simply cannot be all things to all kids. We attempt to take the cookie cutter model for education and "up" it for the gifted students and "down" it for the "slow" students. In the meantime, the "middle of the class" , or the majority, gets bits and pieces of both and EVERYone gets short changed.

I think the solution lies in thinking outside college preperatory education. College is not for every student. Not being a high academic achiever does not necessarily make a student slow.

There used to be a time in this country when students could choose to take a field such as plumbing or business in vocational or technical schools. College prep classes were reserved for those academically gifted students that demonstrated the ability towards higher education. I don't know how or why we moved away from that model of education but perhap it is time to revisit it.

 

[jcemom]

I agree. Our school district does still have vocational options, though. I do think that's a good thing. Our high schools have college prep classes available, I just think it would be better if the advanced option courses were available earlier...say, maybe around fourth grade. By the time I reached high school and could opt into more difficult courses I just wasn't interested anymore. I did take the college preparatory curriculum, but the "spark" was gone by then and I just wanted to finish.

 

[Pinnie]

Originally posted by tonyswife
The more "gifted" a student is, the more individualized their education has to be in order to challenge them. It is unrealistic to expect that cookie cutter "gifted" programs in public schools will enrich the education of truely "gifted" students. If we spend the necessary money to individualize the curriculum for a few students, we take away from the basic educations of the average students.

I'm not saying that gited students do not require or deserve to be challenged, I'm saying the public schools are unable to adequatly do it.

Where are the kid's parents? The parents cannot challenge their children beyond their basic education?

I think that is a rather "Blanket" statement there, tonyswife. Not ALL public schools are the same.

Take a look at this link for my district's ACAT program.

http://www.livonia.k12.mi.us/programs/acat.html

I have nominated a number of my students to be tested into LPS's ACAT program. They have to test in the very HIGH 90 percentile to qualify. Not all children can handle the program, however. They have to be highly motivated and self directed.

pinnie

 

[crs7568]

TorriLammy, I realize that some special education students are gifted as well. I was remiss in not being more specific with my definition. As an English teacher AND a former special education teacher, I should know better. I don't want to get into a debate about the "necessity" of some programs that are offered to special education students but I must say that I have seen things that definitely maxamize their education and don't merely provide the supports necessary for them to attend school. I am not talking about physically handicapped students and I am not saying that maxamizing the education of these students is wrong. I am maintaining that it should be fair for everyone.

I also do everything possible to supplement the education of my child. She is a bright but not gifted or talented little girl. Fortunately, I am in an economic position to do those things for her. Not everyone can do the same and their children should not pay the price.

By the way, congratulations on your daughter going off to college. My girls are little but I can imagine how proud you must be.

 

[Madi100]

Originally posted by tonyswife
crs, I agree except I don't think it's that simple. The surgeons and politicians are not the only ones that are "our future" The garbage collectors and grocery clerks are our future as well.

OUCH. I won't take personal offense to that statement even though I happen to work in a grocery store. I work there for fun, to get me out of the house, and to have a little extra spending money. I may not have ever been a straight A student, but I was reading more than "If You Give A Mouse A Cookie" my senior year of high school. I am, in fact, quite smart. Now my husband might take offense to that statement. He is a grocer. That is his career. He has to be one of the smartest men I have ever had the opportunity to know. He was a straight A student.

As far as the No Child Left Behind, I think it's great. I think that rule should apply. We shouldn't allow a student to fall behind. I also don't think that any student should be held back just because more emphasis on the slower students than the students who learn easier. Our older daughter is very smart. We got lucky enough to be in a school district that allows for skipping grades. She has done exactly that. When I think of the No Child Left Behind I picture a class of students in a line. They are in line by level of smartness. You have the smartest at the beginning. The teacher is walking along with them to make sure they all stay in line and can keep up. Well, what happens when that little guy or gal at the end of the line can't keep up? We can't leave him behind, so the teacher stops the line so that they can catch up. Now some of the students in the middle might be slowly walking still to get up with the front, but the front of the line has STOPPED. Or, if the line doesn't get stopped the teacher falls back to the end of the line to encourage the slow movers to catch up with the rest. That means, that the front of line has no attention from the teacher. That's great for the guy in back, but what is the front of the line learning???

 

[tonyswife]

Originally posted by Madi100
OUCH. I won't take personal offense to that statement even though I happen to work in a grocery store. I work there for fun, to get me out of the house, and to have a little extra spending money. I may not have ever been a straight A student, but I was reading more than "If You Give A Mouse A Cookie" my senior year of high school. I am, in fact, quite smart. Now my husband might take offense to that statement. He is a grocer. That is his career. He has to be one of the smartest men I have ever had the opportunity to know. He was a straight A student.

This is absolutely my point. Surgeons and lawyers are important. It takes a smart and motivated person to excel in those fields. It also takes smart and motivated people to do the everyday things, they (we) are just as important as the future scientists. I did not mean to imply those jobs were "less" in fact I meant thay are "just as" if not "more" important. Academic achievement is not always, in fact hardly ever, the best indicator of a person's importance to society as a whole.

 

[DHSsenior007]

Okay, first off, I want everyone to take a nice deep breath, in, and now out. Okay, good!

Let me give you some background about myself so you will understand where I'm coming from. I am going into 10th grade at a public high school. I've attended public school for all my life (except for K.-2nd) and I've been to two different school districts. When I transferred from the private school to the public school district, I had to wait 1 1/2 years before I could get into GT classes. So for 3rd and 4th grades, I was sitting around extremely bored and doing particulary lousy on my grades because I was bored. Once I took the test for GT, and I got in, all it was was a class one day a week for one hour, doing mind-bogglers. So I went into 5th grade in the same school district and was in all GT classes. Again, I did extremely poor because the teachers weren't all that great and either didn't know or understand that I hadn't been exposed to higher level thinking courses like the ones I was in. For 6th grade, I transferred yet again to another public school district, and I was in all pre-AP courses (the same thing at GT, but under a different name). During 6th grade, I did fabulous. At the end of the year, I received the award for being in the top 10%, which is the highest you can get. I did the same for 7th and 8th grades. At the end of 7th, I was inducted into the National Junior Honor Society, and at the end of 8th, I was awarded the top academic award. All through 6th-8th grades, I was never really challenged mentally. The teachers always said to do your best of course, but I didn't have any trouble passing, and even though I was bored, I never had below a 92 on my report card.

Then came high school. I was really looking forward to it because maybe here, I might be challenged. But was I? Not really. Since 8th grade was the first year for TAAS to be replaced with TAKS (different standardized testings), the teachers were all freaking out because they didn't know how different the TAKS would be, so they hammered it down our throats all year. In 9th grade I found out that I was the only girl to receive 'Commended' on all three test areas. There were only five in my grade total that received this top bracket on the scoring levels.

At the end of 9th grade, I received all of the top academic awards that I could receive (they have that law in place where a student can only receive a certain amount of awards). While this may be true, I was still rather bored in classes.

There's my background. Moving on to my opinion on this very controversial topic.

I can understand G & T kids not receiving all the same attention that other kids receive for standardized testing preparation. Teachers know that we'll pass it, and that's all the school district cares about. Teachers are worried about the 'other' kids, because they know that these are the kids that need the work and practice, so they get it. That's all fine and dandy with me.

But, what I don't like is that the GT kids aren't challenged nearly enough. I don't know anyway to solve this, except maybe going and complaining to the school board about maybe changing the curriculum, or having a more selective way to choose who gets into the GT courses. Oh, another thing I didn't explain. In my school, basically anybody can get into GT courses. That means that there are several kids in there that are very disruptive (I don't know if maybe it's because they are bored or don't belong in the course, that's another debate altogether ).

One of my pet peeves is people complaining and complaining all night long and arguing and bickering for the longest time. But does anything get solved by this? NO!!!! The only real productive thing people can do with their issues is go and talk it out with the right authorities. If school boards, politicians, or whoever hear that GT kids aren't being challenged enough, then, maybe since they are the ones that are in charge of this stuff, they'll change it to meet these needs.

I would go and try to change this, but does anybody listen to the actual students themselves? Huh, no! Hopefully, they will listen to the parents and other adults.

Now I know I probably got really off subject and I'm going to hate myself for posting this, but I just had to vent. Thanks. Now I'm going to go jump into a hole and never ever come out again.

 

[N.Bailey]

In our district, kids that are more advanced than the others in their class are able to move up to a higher level. For example, if a 2nd grade child is able to handle a higher math, the 2nd grade child moves to the 3rd grade level for math only. If they're able to handle the 4th grade level, then they're moved to that. Some kids can handle a higher math, but need to be in that 2nd grade level for reading maybe? In our schools, that child would remain in the class with students his age for ALL classes he's not ready to move up in, but would not be held back in other areas where he's ready to advance. I'm not sure how it's handled once they get to the high school level, but they do everything they can at the elem. age levels as well as the middle school level. My children are both in 6th grade, so I have no experience with high school. I'm sure they have something in place to stimulate these kids in high school though too.

We come from a smaller school. 150 average per class, so maybe this isn't possible across the board? I don't know, but it does seem to work well here. The gifted students are all placed with special teachers who are assigned to work with these students the entire school day. It's not like they get an hour a week, their entire day is with teachers who only teach the gifted students.

 

[DHSsenior007]

I think that sounds like a terrific idea. I wish my school district would do that.

In my middle school, if you were in pre-AP math in 7th grade, you would be taking pre-Algebra, while regular classes take that in 8th grade. When you get to 8th grade, if you take pre-AP math again, you would be in Algebra. Then if you pass a test (for some reason, my class never took that test), when you get to 9th, you take Algebra 2 (It was geometry for my class, but they switched it for the up-coming class of freshman).

 

[jcemom]

I think it sounds like a great idea also, I wish I had been presented with those options! (As far a class size, my boys' elementary has only 180 students TOTAL in grades K-5.)

 

[Dancind]

Originally posted by tonyswife
I don't know how or why we moved away from that model of education but perhap it is time to revisit it.

I think this was the OP's point. And I can tell you when the trend to go back to heterogenous classes began, with the latest education act. This year our school district announced that there would be no more "enriched" classes. These were classes that were offered to motivated, bright students that weren't in Gifted classes, and now they are going away.

My daughter is very lucky. Her mid-school, and I believe her school only in this district, has her programmed for four classes a day out of seven Gifted. She is challenged at least some of the time, and it gives her the opportunity to be in class with other kids that are "weird" like her.

She has had teachers in grade school who refused to modify the curriculum for Gifted kids, and I can't begin to tell you how awful those years were for her. Not only was she bored all day, but she had a terrible time completing the mountains of repetitive homework. For instance, she would score 100% on the Spelling pretest on Monday, and by Friday and three pages of Spelling homework later, miss a few words. She was a depressed and angry kid, and as a parent, there's not much you can do short of homeschooling. So many GT kids are in a situation like this, versus the situation my daughter has now.

There's something that I really believe about GT kids, and I don't think this point has been made. They have a talent for learning, and they're kind of like sharks. If they aren't moving forward, they shrivel up and die inside. If they aren't challenged, they learn to avoid challenge. And then you lose the potential brain surgeon, world leader, environmental scientist. The lucky ones will still manage to get into a good college, and learn to be challenged there. Lots of others won't. My daughter doesn't particularly like it when she has to work at something, whether its's school, dance, whatever. So I worry about this.

I wish they would change the "No Child Left Behind" Act to the "Every Child has a Right to Learn" Act. That should about cover it.

 

[jcemom]

Originally posted by Dancind
There's something that I really believe about GT kids, and I don't think this point has been made. They have a talent for learning, and they're kind of like sharks. If they aren't moving forward, they shrivel up and die inside. If they aren't challenged, they learn to avoid challenge.

I agree. I think you've got me pegged, lol. When everything comes so easily for so long, eventually you become accustomed to not having to try very hard for anything. For most of my life, if I couldn't do something on the first try, I quit. If I thought I might not be able to do something, I just didn't try it in the first place. It's sad.

 

[sha_lyn]

jcemom ... I know exactly where you are coming from, except because I never learn how to study I was over-whelmed once I hit advanced math in high school. I did very poorly in 9th grade because I didn't fit in with the gifted crowd in high school, and I had never learned how to study. It actually took me until the summer before 12 grade to actually figure out I needed to learn how to study. Boy I rocked in 12 grade. I just wish someone had been paying attention and realized what was going.

Our gifted program in ele (didn't have middle back them ele was 1-8) was just a couple of hours 1 day a week. We also had the problem of teacher not liking the fact we were pulled from class.

Many yrs later I learned that the principal of the ele school I went to started refusing to let kids at that school participate in the gifted program. His reasoning... letting the kids leave class 1 day a week was a burden on their regular teachers.

 

[pirateofthecarolinas]

binny, thanks for sharing this email. I too have a special needs, learning disabled child and a G & T child. I also taught for 10 years. There are great points to both sides.

The school system did leave my son behind. We made a decision to put him in a private LD school. The public school, by law, was suppose to give my child everything he needed. Could they? NO! There wasn't enough manpower or resources to meet his needs. As a teacher, I clearly understood this and took him out. We have spent about $50,000 on his education. He is going back into the public school this August as a 4th grader. We will see how it goes. Parents have to do what is right for their child.

If your child is gifted and not being challenged then pay for it yourself. The schools will never, ever be able to give some children everything that they need. You can't sit back and wait. You have to be an advocate for your own child.

My daughter is in a Spanish Immersion Magnet School (public). I love this program because if the students can't keep up they are exited from the school. Out of 24 students in her 1st grade class, 6 were retained and sent back to their home schools. It is an academically rigourous program and only those keeping up are allowed to stay. The principal also sent home a letter saying that if you were excessively tardy or absent you would be exited from the program. These students score better on standardized tests given in English than their counterparts in the traditional school program. I feel that this proves to me that gifted children need to be challenged and not held back.

Just call me both sides of the coin!

Lori

 

[J/T Gramdma]

AS A Mother of 3 GIFTED CHILDREN, I also feel despite gov,t funding these children are left out of the benefit of education. one child tested out of 12th grade in 7th grade and endured 5 yrs years of boredom and fighting with her parents to get good grades. Her solution was to do no homework=F and pass mid terms =A so a Cwould accompish her goal of passing the class. Not the way to produce a productive adult therefore she quit the world to avoid any studious work. the 2nd child decided after 8th grade she wanted to go to college with her friends so she got B's allthru school a self motivated person. 3rd child is drifting trying to find himself after graduating. a nephew dropped out to be with drugs and is finding his way back. these children all had measured inthe genius range 140and above. in my opinion the schools failed all of the children just as if they had failed 3 grades levels ina row. The only difference- the school had no help to offer and no incentive to help them acheive their potenial.

 

[Mskanga]

My oldest in fifth grade happens to be in the highest group of her class, often ignored because she barely needs help or she's a good kid who does not cause trouble ( very quiet ).
My youngest was in first grade and was mixed up with the class, was the top of the class. Ordinarely she would have been held back along with the rest of the class , but because of one support teacher , she was pulled out of the class daily for accelerated reading and math.
I'm all for the programs for kids who need it so they are not left behind, but we cannot ignore the ones who need challenge , if we don't encourage that, THEY will be the ones left behind.