New bus tie downs.

[BillSears]

I rode one of the newer buses on my last trip and saw these tie downs for the first time. The idea behind these is to not have any tie downs mounted in the floor. Instead you put the side wheel of your wheelchair right up against the bumper in the picture and your chair is winched into position so it can't move away from the bumper.

The bus driver wasn't able to lock the front tie down but I told him it was OK to go on without it. However I did slide around a few inches because it wasn't locked down. I guess the drivers were still trying to figure out how this system works.

I can see this as being a little faster since only 2 tie downs need to be done. Plus it's safer for other passengers since there are no tie downs on the floor to trip over.

I really have no idea how they will secure an ECV with these tie downs since the ECV doesn't have a large back wheel to press up against the bumper.

Here's a picture of the spot. You can see the black bumper here. In this instance my right rear wheel would be pressed against this bumper. They then hook 2 hooks onto the frame and crank the chair up against the folded seat/bumper.

Here's a picture of the instructions:

 

[Bete]

I would like to know how all this is working if others will post from their personal experiences.

Is their perhaps another area on these buses specifically for scooters?

 

[BillSears]

This was on a bus with 3 tie downs. 2 of them were this new tie down and 1 of them was the old style.

 

[SueM in MN]

Thanks for the great pictures, Bill - especially the instructions.
I was able to find the website for the company that makes the securement device. It is the same company (QStraint) that makes the tiedown devices on the other buses.

According to the website, it is a universal securement device and was designed to accomodate both wheelchairs and scooters. There are several tabs on the webpage, including one to a video (hopefully, this link to the video will work)

I also found a Part 2 video on youtube with the entire procedure for putting the wheelchair in and out.
It looks like a very nice system for all the reasons that Bill mentioned. One additional positive is that there is no guessing where to park the wheelchair (sometime the drivers want DD's wheelchair parked too far forward and the front restraints are then not in the correct place).

The 2 pitfalls I can see are:
1) In the older restraint system, many of the belts got twisted because some drivers didn't take the time to stow them correctly. (One of my pet peeves). The belts in this system could also get twisted if not allowed to retract correctly.
2) Even though I mark the safe securement spots on the back of DD's wheelchair with ribbons for ease in telling the driver what spots to use, many drivers try to secure the hooks somewhere unsafe. With this new system, it may be harder for a companion to see where the hooks have been attached.

 

[KPeveler]

Ok, I have a problem with this new system... actually, several.

First - I do not allow my handrims to come in contact with anything if I can help it, except my hands. I will NEVER allow it to be dragged down a "bumper" which appears to be made of plastic. I have extremely delicate skin (thanks EDS) so it is imperative that there are NO scratches or nicks on my handrims. Believe it or not, I have had my chair for almost a year and there are STILL no scratches or nicks that can be felt. But apparently it MUST be in contact with the bumper to work.

Second, I do not allow bus drivers to move my chair, ever. My wife may help me, but in general, I do not allow others to move me. I have been hurt by people who do not know my specific needs before, so I will be moving the chair by myself at all times.

Third - Yes, it works great with a chair like a Quickie GP or Quickie 2, but I fail to see how the single front hook will work with my Quickie Q7. It does NOT have lower bars under the frame. There is the axle bar under me, and the gently curving front frame (which is perpendicular to the ground - trust me, we have yet to figure out how to tie it down on a tram, much less a bus)

Fourth - So the wheelchair is pulled sideways in the front against the bumper once the front is tightened? NOT okay with this. This will FURTHER rub my handrims along the bumper. Unless the bumper is made of fabric with LOTS of stuffing under it (unlikely - I think it is made of plastic and has metal bolts on it), this is going to damage my handrims.

Fifth - How will this work with a powerchair? I have extra-wide mid-wheel drive which looks like it may be under the bumper. How will that work? Also, I apparently have to come in at an angle, get the back tied down, then back up, then tie down the front, then be winched into place. This is not going to work easily with a mid-wheel drive chair.

So in theory it makes sense, but it really fills me with LOTS of questions as to how it will work with me...

 

[SueM in MN]

Ok, I have a problem with this new system... actually, several.

First - I do not allow my handrims to come in contact with anything if I can help it, except my hands. I will NEVER allow it to be dragged down a "bumper" which appears to be made of plastic. I have extremely delicate skin (thanks EDS) so it is imperative that there are NO scratches or nicks on my handrims. Believe it or not, I have had my chair for almost a year and there are STILL no scratches or nicks that can be felt. But apparently it MUST be in contact with the bumper to work.

Second, I do not allow bus drivers to move my chair, ever. My wife may help me, but in general, I do not allow others to move me. I have been hurt by people who do not know my specific needs before, so I will be moving the chair by myself at all times.

Third - Yes, it works great with a chair like a Quickie GP or Quickie 2, but I fail to see how the single front hook will work with my Quickie Q7. It does NOT have lower bars under the frame. There is the axle bar under me, and the gently curving front frame (which is perpendicular to the ground - trust me, we have yet to figure out how to tie it down on a tram, much less a bus)

Fourth - So the wheelchair is pulled sideways in the front against the bumper once the front is tightened? NOT okay with this. This will FURTHER rub my handrims along the bumper. Unless the bumper is made of fabric with LOTS of stuffing under it (unlikely - I think it is made of plastic and has metal bolts on it), this is going to damage my handrims.

Fifth - How will this work with a powerchair? I have extra-wide mid-wheel drive which looks like it may be under the bumper. How will that work? Also, I apparently have to come in at an angle, get the back tied down, then back up, then tie down the front, then be winched into place. This is not going to work easily with a mid-wheel drive chair.

So in theory it makes sense, but it really fills me with LOTS of questions as to how it will work with me...

I don't see how they can winch any power wheelchair to the side - they are too heavy!?
In the first video, they show an Invacare Pronto mid wheel power wheelchair, which is similar to my DD's Invacare TDX (I think I have the letters right). It's hard to tell exactly where the midwheel hits the bumper, but I don't think it is below it.
Also, I watched the video in full screen and it was clear on some shots that the bolts holding the bumper part on are recessed, so they will not be sticking out and scratching anything. Don't know what the bumper is made of, but I wonder if you could carry a piece of fleecy material to drape over the side of your wheelchair to prevent it from being scratched?

I do think that the new tiedown system will work with most wheelchairs, which is probably the best that can be done. If all chairs were exactly the same, it would be easy to tie them down. But, there is a huge variety of chairs and I can see that this will make the way things are done much more standard for many more chairs than the older tie downs.

It's possible that they do plan to outfit buses with one or 2 sets of these and one set of the other tiedowns. If they did that, they could probably have a system that would work with almost any type of device.

For your manual wheelchair, they could probably use the brace bar that is under the seat. That is actually the one I use on my DD's manual Quickie GP wheelchair. It is a little more difficult to reach sometimes (I have yet to convince a bus driver to use it), but it puts the strap away from her feet and legs. It is a safe tiedown spot from the standpoint of being a strong permanent part of the frame and it also meets the requirements for placement of the tiedown according to the instructions that can with the tiedowns in our van.

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

Many issues here to, some alike to K's. No way this system will work with either my manual (which I'ld only use as "back up") nor my powerchair. Heck, I'm not even going to let them try it. Checked out the website, but no way not in my lifetime. The combination of my chairs, my body and this system is not safe.

Q-straint is used on our national market, but only allowed with the more "traditional" products using 4 tie down spots etc. As far as my info goes, the system Bill has ran into on the WDW bus actually is not allowed on our market. Not passed enough of the (high) safety standards we've got before systems are allowed to be used. Some systems that were more or less "alike" (yet more secure, imho) have been banned from being sold or built in a couple of years ago. I know how ridged these standards sometimes can be but when it comes down to a tie down system, I'ld rather use those systems that did pass the bar and also fit my chair and needs instead of taking a gambling. Guess I'll wait for another bus if need be.

For your manual wheelchair, they could probably use the brace bar that is under the seat.

Not when one has a chair that is more "upscaled" on said point than just having a plain old bar there. For instance my own chair; beneath my bumm you'll only find the biggest part of the 4-point individual suspention system which makes the chair what it is. The bar and system are so intertwined, there is NO way of securing it in a safe way. It will wreck the system (which could easily run up into the $1,000 upto needing a new chair) and leave me open to accidents waiting to happen while on the bus or off of it. Esp. combined with the drivers having no clue of chairs that are out of the "standard" range. They try their best but with that intent can do very serious damage. Esp. when talking about a spot which doesn't allow me to visually control what they are doing and correct them if need be (which is the norm in about 40-50% off the times, even if I give tie down instructions before the driver starts....)

To give some idea, I added a pic of my "bar beneath bum area";

All that is pink, black and silver is part of the suspention. Which obviously leaves no securing space.

 

[SueM in MN]

Your bar is a special situation, which is why each person needs to know their own equipment and what will work for it. The bar under the seat of KPeveler's chair as it comes is the same as the bar as underneath my DD's wheelchair seat - it's a different model by the same company. Any modifications from the way it originally comes on the chair might make it impossible to tie down there. But, without modifications, it would work (although as mentioned, the person seated in the chair may not be able to see exactly where the straps ate going).

I would venture a guess that this new device would work well for at least 90% of the wheelchairs and ECVs and even power wheelchairs that are on the WDW buses. Custom manual or power wheelchairs are not that common at WDW. What is transported on the buses is mostly the same brands of ECVs (whether rented or owned), rental folding wheelchairs or non custom chairs owned by people or custom chairs that have modifications that don't involve the frame.
Those could all be used with this system, so even with exceptions, it will still work for the majority of guests being transported.

Even when we go during busy times for people using mobility devices, we can go days without seeing another guest using a custom wheelchair. That confirms to me that the device will work for most mobility devices that are being transported.
There will be exceptions like special equipment or things like ventilator trays and hopefully, that is why they left one of the 4 point systems on the bus that Bill was on. For the majority of chairs, this new thing will make it faster and more consistent.

As fir crash testing, I looked on the website to try to find that and more information about specifications for sizes and weights of wheelchairs. I did not find that information. His system is different than any I have seen. The older styles ( which I'm pretty sure were banned in the US) had a single clamp that a wheelchair was backed into. The clamp grabbed onto one rear wheel of the wheelchair, which did not work at all for chairs that had no large back wheel or just had a configuration of wheels that didn't fit.

After the holidays, I will PM some of the bus drivers on the DIS to see what they know.

 

[peemagg]

I can see how the rear straps would work well with my scooter, but only because my scooter is altered for my lift and uses strap system similar to that system. I am not sure about the front tie down on the tiller though. If it pulls the scooter over like it did the wheelchair, I would be worried of damage to the tiller.

 

[disney david]

mybe they are testing this out on some buses since they have the old way on it. Mybe disney fels this is a way to stream line loading so every driver dose it the same way.

 

[BillSears]

The bus driver wasn't able to lock the front tie down but I told him it was OK to go on without it. However I did slide around a few inches because it wasn't locked down. I guess the drivers were still trying to figure out how this system works.

I do want to mention this again. If the system is being tested the drivers need more training on it. My driver could not get the front restraint to lock. Looking at the video I can see that it requires a twist to put it into the locking position but either he didn't know this or the mechanism was broken.

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

I do want to mention this again. If the system is being tested the drivers need more training on it. My driver could not get the front restraint to lock. Looking at the video I can see that it requires a twist to put it into the locking position but either he didn't know this or the mechanism was broken.

Which either way would be not that good of a sign, IMHO. One of two options;

- a lack of training when installing a new system (read; will result in at least frustrated drivers, guests from both sides or worse)
- a new system breaking so quickly after being put into place on a transporation system that should be able to implement hundreds or rather thousands times of usage

Guess there could be a third option called "drivers caracter" (any range of options ranging from being just totally challenged in this department to sleeping on the training), but I'ld sooner think these types of options would be a case of smaller odds.

By the way; did you contact the transportation operations or WDW about this experience? Whatever the reason it happened, I think it's valueble knowledge for them to hear about. Esp. with new systems I could see any company wanting to hear both positive, negative and "could improve" sounds.



Sue, I can understand what you are saying but am wary of possible problems Disney is getting themselves into. My chair might look and be "out of the norm", but I'm seeing a real revolution when it comes to chairs being more and more commonly "out of the norm". I suspect Disney would want to invest in longterm thinking with something like a bus. At those prices, they're probably hanging on to the busses for quite some years.

Another problem I could see happening is the 2 systems used on board. Drivers seem to have problems enough dealing with all the different types of mobility aids out their and each having their own tie down system already. Which makes sense to me, no way they could know it all about all possible aids. Now there comes another tie down system. Not just in the fleet, but 2 different systems on one bus. I can see the confusion or even frustration happening. Or what if there's on guest with a mobility aid waiting at a busstop that can only be tied down by the 4 point system mostly used now. But oops; another guest is already in that spot, because it was easier for the guest to make that turn and the driver also finds it easier to use a known system rather than a new one. Are they now going to play musical chairs for tie down spots? Or does the guest waiting for the bus have to wait for another bus, eventhough there are accessible spaces available?

As far as crashtesting goes; I don't know which regulations the US puts in place. It's time consuming enough to keep up with ours. I know the systemtype you mentioned being banned from the US, we had the same ban for some of those brands, incl. a few of Q-straint. A variation on the bumper system we're discussing here in some ways are systems like the Permo-lock. Easy to use, safe, but very limiting as they're being made for specific types of set ups. When I mentioned the crash testing, it was nothing more or less than me expressing my personal feelings that as long as a system is not allowed upon our market (by either failing the test or not being tested to begin with) I personally rather not use it. Obviously nothing is a 100% safe, but when given the choice I sure know where my preference lies.


Streamlining is obviously a huge goal with the increase of demand for this type of accessibility and it being time consuming. That said, with the fast amount of different aids Disney transport is faced with, I think the system they are now trying will proof to be found a step backwards in mainstreaming. It seems more limited in safely dealing with "any and all sizes and types" of mobility aids than the 4 point system. Time will tell. I hope for "our" group in general I'm beyond wrong and will have to eat dirt some day.

 

[Talking Hands]

I believe with my Jazzy 1103 and with many center drive pwc the operator will need to back up with the wheelchair almost touching the barrier. There is no way I will allowed my chair to be winched to the side. That would only serve to tip it towards the side of the bus as my turning wheels are in the rear not the front. Front at anti-tip

 

[KPeveler]

When I was riding my local city bus the other day, I looked at how I was tied down and imagined how I would enter the bus this way (I enter at the rear door, so just like Disney) and manage to hit the bumper. I figured I could do it, but it would be a nightmare for people with a rental scooter who were not good at driving it.

Then I realized that after securing the back straps, we are supposed to back up to touch both the side and back "bumper." My back wheels are only 8 inches high, so I am not sure if they would touch the bumper. Also, I have a backpack of things I must carry with me that I cannot take off my wheelchair by myself. The backpack does NOT make the chair longer than ADA guidelines, but may prevent the bumper from being hit correctly.

That got me thinking - what about someone with a chair with a vent on the back? I have seen plenty of chairs with specialized equipment that sticks out further than the back wheels. Heck, my wheelchair back almost sticks out further (I cannot sit at a 90 degree angle - lots of fun). I assume that most people would be nervous about backing up until their vent or whatever hits something!

Is there no sensor in the back, so it just has to be backed up? That would make sense, but I am having trouble figuring it out... I figure since I take buses a lot at home too, I should figure out how this all works. I would bet most new buses being bought would have this new more compact system.

 

[mdvlprof]

We like the new buses. Didn't have to adjust DS wheelchair to use the ramp. Because he's tall, and his knees don't bend all the way, sometimes he didn't fit on the old buses-and their lifts. Some drivers, tho, aren't used to the new tie down system.