need to vent, church related issues

[piccolopat]

How big is your congregation?

Are there other people who are like minded as you?

Are there enough people who can organize and volunteer for the activities that you propose?

Does your church have the funding to provide these ministries?

Lots of great ideas there, but without people willing to step up, I'm not sure what you can do.

In our church of about 400 households, we often find that people have great ideas that they want the church to provide, but they don't want to do the work to make it happen. There's a lot of "I wish our church would x,y, and z." But when we ask for volunteers for the existing necessary ministries, we often fall short of our goal. And then it's the same folks doing everything.

Also, with kids there are child protection restrictions to follow and liability insurances that have to be thought about in case of incidents.

We have the same problem. Our parish is also fairly large but no one wants to volunteer. My husband, daughter and I have been volunteers in music ministry for 30 years and I've been directing this group for many years now. At one time, we had almost 30 members in our contemporary group plus there was another, more traditional choir. Over time, the older members passed away or could no longer participate. Attempts to get more people, especially young adults (not kids), involved in either choir has been largely unsuccessful. A few joined but then as they started to grow their families, they dropped out. The pandemic made things worse. We are now down to a dozen. I don't know how much longer I'll be able to keep this group together as 3/4 of us are now seniors and some members aren't always available. The congregation loves what we do, but getting people to commit has been extremely difficult.

 

[Jml813]

We have the same problem. Our parish is also fairly large but no one wants to volunteer. My husband, daughter and I have been volunteers in music ministry for 30 years and I've been directing this group for many years now. At one time, we had almost 30 members in our contemporary group plus there was another, more traditional choir. Over time, the older members passed away or could no longer participate. Attempts to get more people, especially young adults (not kids), involved in either choir has been largely unsuccessful. A few joined but then as they started to grow their families, they dropped out. The pandemic made things worse. We are now down to a dozen. I don't know how much longer I'll be able to keep this group together as 3/4 of us are now seniors and some members aren't always available. The congregation loves what we do, but getting people to commit has been extremely difficult.

And in my parish we have a different problem. We don't have a music ministry. The music director doesn't want to take the time to try and do anything to grow. The kids choir is three people and the adult choir was always a quartet before COVID. I'm seriously thinking about changing churches to find one that has a music program because ours does not even though we have a full-time music minister on the payroll.

Yesterday was a whole 'nother headache. We have a pastor who cannot get masses done on time and yesterday one of the masses was over 45 minutes late getting out causing a huge backup for the next mass. He just doesn't care! So much so that he even parks in the handicap parking spot instead of his own designated priest parking spot. We need a change but it's not going to happen...

All we hear about is how we need to add all these amenities to the church. The new fundraising campaign is for a park. You've been trying to update and expand the church area because we're bursting at the seams but now we find out that that's now phase 10 on a project and now we need a community park as a priority first?!

Sorry venting along with you. OP!

 

[tvguy]

According to Google the median age of someone who attends church is 59. Attending church is an older person's pass time. So the services the congregation wants, and is willing to pay for, is going to skew away from youth programs.

 

[Brian Noble]

people get benefits for that [...] that's "not discrete" [...] "that kind of problem"

I'd nail a copy of Luke 10:29-37 to the door as I left.

I am assuming a little about the particular faith tradition of this congregation, but I bet I'm right.

 

[DisneyHardin]

I wish you lived in my city, I would invite you to my church. Mine does almost all those things you listed. We have a huge children's/youth ministry and lots of young families (although we don't do VBS anymore, but instead do a summer Kids Mission Day Camp).

I know volunteer burnout is real. Before I moved, I went to a much smaller church and was involved in so many things, it sometimes got overwhelming.

 

[fly girl]

Find a new church or alternately, find another way to feel a sense of community/belonging that is not affiliated with a church.

I actively avoid any community events that take place at churches precisely because I don't want anyone attempting to recruit me and my family to attend church services when I am attending a non religious event. I find it extremely invasive and annoying.

First, I agree, it seems like it is not the right fit for OP. No harm in checking out another church or other organization.

Second, what type of event have you been to that recruits you? No doubt I understand why you wouldn’t want to go under those circumstances. It is along the lines of I’m not answering my door if Jehovah Witnesses are knocking. However, I have been to many festivals, fish fry, and bingos and no one has ever approached me asking to join their church. Maybe it depends on the religion or event?

 

[HopperFan]

At first I was going to quote each of your posts but WOW. Bottom line your church is going to go out of business because the senior population is holding it hostage as their own private social club. You will never draw young people if it isn't proactive. If a church isn't advocating and wanting to do public service, social service and supporting those in need then ... it's just a social club for those they let inside. The very wide range of programs they are killing, the refusal to be open to new programs, their aversion to helping young people .... would tell me all I need to know about their desire to serve.

I agree with the others that say you need to find a new church with a welcoming congregation and that has a purpose both inside and outside it's walls. Hopefully you will find some volunteer opportunities that are fulfilling and yes, perhaps there are some outside the church you can join and enjoy as well. It's always good to have multiple sources of fulfillment. Things change, and I think if you explore other options you'll find your happy place.

 

[barkley]

Second, what type of event have you been to that recruits you? No doubt I understand why you wouldn’t want to go under those circumstances. It is along the lines of I’m not answering my door if Jehovah Witnesses are knocking. However, I have been to many festivals, fish fry, and bingos and no one has ever approached me asking to join their church. Maybe it depends on the religion or event?

there are many that actively recruit via public events, some subtly while others are much more overt. putting a name on a sign in list absent an address or just identifying yourself by first and last name can result in a google search to locate your address/phone for subsequent mailers or calls to 'just let you know about our upcoming special event' (much more faith driven events though that's not disclosed with the invite). i have family and friends who belong to different denominations but both actively educate their membership on how to recruit new members and it is considered to be an important part of their faiths. at one point we began receiving a monthly magazine from one of these churches (family member subscribed us to it thinking it would convince us to join)-the number of articles with 'tips' and 'techniques' to engage friends, family, neighbors, your kid's friends (and by way of them-their parents)...in a manner to encourage their engagement and subsequent membership within that church affirmed to us that it was not what we sought.

 

[barkley]

quick question for those who've mentioned issues with a shortage of volunteers-

any chance it can be at least in part based on cliquish or exclusionary behaviors by existing volunteers/committees? i've seen and experienced this, known of others who have faced the same. the 'old guard' makes it clear if not by words but their actions that there is a pecking order and newer volunteers are at the bottom where they will carry the less desirable duties/have no voice (not 'old guard' by age necessarily-often it is VERY inclusive of younger members who feel some claim to status within the group by virtue of generational membership in a congregation-as in 'born to faith' vs. what seems the lesser regarded convert).

a lack of membership/volunteers can be a result of many factors but when there's a high turnover in newbies that fairly leave-then the congregation has to look inward and question how they are treating people once they have entered the fold (i've heard it likened to being pursued in a romantic relationship and how the attention can wane when 'the thrill of the chase' wears off).

 

[ronandannette]

...What they do want to do: Women's Bible study, men's Bible study, Youth group on Sunday evenings, choir, send cards and gift bags with candy to college students within our congregation, visit the shut ins, send specific people on "mission trips" (that's an entirely separate conversation...I don't see how those $$$ work best vs, just paying someone local to that particular "mission". They are doing things like yard work and painting, but apparently you have to fly people half way around the world to do these tasks vs giving a local person a job for a week....but I digress). Things that help people in our own community aren't as "popular" as the out of country missions. This one gets under my skin because it's always the same people who go, then they come back with pictures showing them reading stories, playing soccer and on the beach...Mission trip, right....

OK, so if I may, the things you've listed here are all very legitimate activities for for a church body to be involved in. So are all the ones you've suggested. Everybody has their own set of gifts and specific things God puts on their hearts to best use them. It would be wonderful if every church functioned according to the analogy given by St. Paul; a body where all the separate parts are equally honored and perform different, vital functions, to create a healthy whole. Alas, people aren't perfect and neither is any church.

If, for some personal reason, you really feel you're not able to leave, here's what I would do if I were you: Create your own micro-ministries (for lack of a better term) by doing the things that are on your heart on a one-to-one scale. If you know of a lady in need; buy her some feminine products once a month and pass them along. Give to your local food bank, to whatever degree you are able and if you know a person or family that is in need, provide all the information they need about how to access the resources. If you know of someone who needs yard work done and is unable to manage on their own, offer to go over to help one afternoon. If you happen to have a bilingual friend in the congregation and know a newcomer who could benefit from ESL support, try to hook them up. Talk to people you know about what you're doing - the regular rank-and-file. You might be surprised to find others become inspired and your "little" light will start to grow. Oh, and don't forget to pray earnestly for opportunities to serve in ways that nourish your own spirit - doors can open in miraculous ways.

Now, OTOH, if you are ready to leave and find somewhere that's a better fit, here's what I would do if I were you: I'd get involved in some local para-church ministries that are specifically doing the things you are passionate about, out in your community. There you will meet people who obviously share a kindred interest...and most of them will be going to a local church. Ask them where they go and what it's like. Most likely, you'll be led somewhere that would be great for you.

Grace and peace.

 

[sk!mom]

quick question for those who've mentioned issues with a shortage of volunteers-

any chance it can be at least in part based on cliquish or exclusionary behaviors by existing volunteers/committees? i've seen and experienced this, known of others who have faced the same. the 'old guard' makes it clear if not by words but their actions that there is a pecking order and newer volunteers are at the bottom where they will carry the less desirable duties/have no voice (not 'old guard' by age necessarily-often it is VERY inclusive of younger members who feel some claim to status within the group by virtue of generational membership in a congregation-as in 'born to faith' vs. what seems the lesser regarded convert).

a lack of membership/volunteers can be a result of many factors but when there's a high turnover in newbies that fairly leave-then the congregation has to look inward and question how they are treating people once they have entered the fold (i've heard it likened to being pursued in a romantic relationship and how the attention can wane when 'the thrill of the chase' wears off).

Yes to all of the above. I would add though that churches wear people out. IME, the second you start going with any regularity, you are asked to do ALL kinds of extras. It’s become a huge machine that takes lots of oil- both monetarily and volunteer wise. This can quickly become exhausting especially when so many of the things serve the “machine” but do not seem to be “what Jesus would do.” He would be OUT serving those in need.

Back to the OP, church attendance has been in a steady decline for years. Thanks to the rise of Christian Nationalism, religious scandals and abuse being exposed, the involvement of Christians in politics, and a global pandemic the slow decline has sped up. Many people just don’t see it as something that they want any part of. I heard a statistic last week that said that even the “mega” churches that seem to be growing- It’s not new people, it’s mostly people moving around church to church searching for what they think they need. Their growth is other’s shrink.

I was raised in church in a pastor’s family. I met my DH at church. We were very involved through our 30’s but our deconstruction and disillusionment started much sooner. We first changed churches to something that felt like it might be a better fit. We continued to try. We no longer participate in a church at large. We do remain involved in a small group 20-30 people who meet weekly, do different book studies, and try to serve our community- with actions not words. Last week we banned together to help a young family who needed a hand after losing their home. I don’t tithe to a church machine but it felt right to provide bedding for young kids who had none. In July, we will take over a Summer kids feeding site every Wednesday.

I should have left much sooner but it takes a long time to reprogram a lifetime. Good luck to you as you look for what you need.

 

[lovesmurfs]

Oh my gosh this sounds so familiar. We've been there, done that. In hindsight...I should have left sooner. I wasted a lot of time and energy hoping for things to improve. One difference is I still had a Sunday School age kid, and I feel she really was the loser in the situation and why I wish I'd made the change sooner. Covid made things even harder.

You know the people. If you are getting push back, it is unlikely to get better. To attract the younger generation there needs to be a willingness to embrace change. So many churches have been struggling with the same thing for many years now. If you really prefer to remain with this congregation and able to do your volunteering outside the church, that's definitely an option. But since you are questioning the situation, then I think you already know the right answer. It's not easy.

Good luck!

This. My husband and I left our church once our kids were out of the house, for a number of reasons. You'll find, in terms of volunteers, the Pareto Principle works: 20 percent of the people do 80 percent of the work. Between the two of us, we had been, through the 20+ years we were there: nursery supervisor, VBS director, Halloween alternative director, Sunday school superintendent, soloists, music leader, Sunday school teachers (all ages through the years), church board members, yadda yadda yadda.

We finally decided our efforts weren't helping the church grow, and, worse, we ourselves weren't growing as Christians, nor were we being fed. We felt battered and bruised. Tipping point was when our daughter was told she couldn't be in the worship team because she came out as bisexual (whole 'nuther thread).

It was a hard break, and it hurt. DH did have coffee with the minister to tell him why we were leaving ... we didn't just ghost the church.

We took a LONG time to 1) go back to church; and 2) find another congregation. As empty-nesters, our church search was through a different lens than when we had little kids. I'm still not volunteering at the church we've been attending for the past three years.

I do regret not doing the move sooner.

 

[DCLMP]

The solution seems easy find a new church. Our church is all about kids and families. There are plenty of large family oriented churches out there.

 

[DCLMP]

Yes to all of the above. I would add though that churches wear people out. IME, the second you start going with any regularity, you are asked to do ALL kinds of extras. It’s become a huge machine that takes lots of oil- both monetarily and volunteer wise. This can quickly become exhausting especially when so many of the things serve the “machine” but do not seem to be “what Jesus would do.” He would be OUT serving those in need.

Back to the OP, church attendance has been in a steady decline for years. Thanks to the rise of Christian Nationalism, religious scandals and abuse being exposed, the involvement of Christians in politics, and a global pandemic the slow decline has sped up. Many people just don’t see it as something that they want any part of. I heard a statistic last week that said that even the “mega” churches that seem to be growing- It’s not new people, it’s mostly people moving around church to church searching for what they think they need. Their growth is other’s shrink.

I was raised in church in a pastor’s family. I met my DH at church. We were very involved through our 30’s but our deconstruction and disillusionment started much sooner. We first changed churches to something that felt like it might be a better fit. We continued to try. We no longer participate in a church at large. We do remain involved in a small group 20-30 people who meet weekly, do different book studies, and try to serve our community- with actions not words. Last week we banned together to help a young family who needed a hand after losing their home. I don’t tithe to a church machine but it felt right to provide bedding for young kids who had none. In July, we will take over a Summer kids feeding site every Wednesday.

I should have left much sooner but it takes a long time to reprogram a lifetime. Good luck to you as you look for what you need.

I think a lot of that started with Rick Warrens mega church. A lot of churches emulated him and his purpose driven life philosophy. I agree it’s a bit much and I was never onboard with it. Something felt off about it. I could never quite put my finger on it.

We have churches that rent out the elementary schools on Sundays. Those are a little more intimate, but if someone is looking for a church with youth activities the mega churches definitely provide that. I know I volunteered and it became like a second job. It’s a lot.

 

[DLgal]

there are many that actively recruit via public events, some subtly while others are much more overt. putting a name on a sign in list absent an address or just identifying yourself by first and last name can result in a google search to locate your address/phone for subsequent mailers or calls to 'just let you know about our upcoming special event' (much more faith driven events though that's not disclosed with the invite). i have family and friends who belong to different denominations but both actively educate their membership on how to recruit new members and it is considered to be an important part of their faiths. at one point we began receiving a monthly magazine from one of these churches (family member subscribed us to it thinking it would convince us to join)-the number of articles with 'tips' and 'techniques' to engage friends, family, neighbors, your kid's friends (and by way of them-their parents)...in a manner to encourage their engagement and subsequent membership within that church affirmed to us that it was not what we sought.

This is exactly what has happened.

 

[barkley]

This is exactly what has happened.

i still get mailings from 3 different christian based churches-one of which is SO out of the norm i have no idea how i ended up on (maybe cults buy mailing lists?).

 

[DCLMP]

quick question for those who've mentioned issues with a shortage of volunteers-

any chance it can be at least in part based on cliquish or exclusionary behaviors by existing volunteers/committees? i've seen and experienced this, known of others who have faced the same. the 'old guard' makes it clear if not by words but their actions that there is a pecking order and newer volunteers are at the bottom where they will carry the less desirable duties/have no voice (not 'old guard' by age necessarily-often it is VERY inclusive of younger members who feel some claim to status within the group by virtue of generational membership in a congregation-as in 'born to faith' vs. what seems the lesser regarded convert).

a lack of membership/volunteers can be a result of many factors but when there's a high turnover in newbies that fairly leave-then the congregation has to look inward and question how they are treating people once they have entered the fold (i've heard it likened to being pursued in a romantic relationship and how the attention can wane when 'the thrill of the chase' wears off).

Why is recruiting people to come to church a bad thing? I've been to many churches and I have never been asked to be a member. What is church membership? They do ask for volunteers to run their programs and if you volunteer it can be time-consuming, but I've never felt pressured.

I've tried different churches, I go worship, listen, and go home. No one has ever approached me for anything. The giving is usually online so there's not even the basket being passed around pressure anymore.

I'm the type of person that has no problem being an outsider I've never felt like I need to get all wrapped in something. I'll do what I can do and not feel guilty about it. Honestly, I've never been made to feel guilty or treated badly.

 

[sk!mom]

Why is recruiting people to come to church a bad thing? I've been to many churches and I have never been asked to be a member. What is church membership? They do ask for volunteers to run their programs and if you volunteer it can be time-consuming, but I've never felt pressured.

I've tried different churches, I go worship, listen, and go home. No one has ever approached me for anything. The giving is usually online so there's not even the basket being passed around pressure anymore.

I'm the type of person that has no problem being an outsider I've never felt like I need to get all wrapped in something. I'll do what I can do and not feel guilty about it. Honestly, I've never been made to feel guilty or treated badly.

For me it’s a couple of things…
First the business that churches have become. They are spending money and man power on recruitment. How about spending that money feeding the hungry? Let your “recruitment” be your presence in the community doing good work.

Second, I don’t like getting spammed by anyone with mail and email inviting me to attend. I know it’s Easter. I’m aware of Christmas Eve.

It has improved a bit in recent years. While I’ll still occasionally get a flyer on my door, church members don’t seem to go out knocking on doors anymore.

 

[disneyfan123]

As a pastor who recently left a church similar to what you've described, I'd say it's likely time to look for a healthier congregation. It takes a lot of work for a church like that to change, and it starts with the leadership. If the lead pastor/priest and/or elder board is desiring change, you have some hope, but if they display the same attitude I'd walk away. Even if the leaders want change, it will take years for meaningful transformation to happen. Wish I could bear better news, but you need to be realistic as to the state of the church.

I fought so hard for change, for many years, at great personal cost; with new leadership at my former church, things have started to shift, but still, it's not the thriving church I hoped and believed it could be. It's a long road ahead for your church to be a vibrant, healthy, impactful community.

 

[QueenIsabella]

It has improved a bit in recent years. While I’ll still occasionally get a flyer on my door, church members don’t seem to go out knocking on doors anymore.

Funny, I had two guys knock on my door yesterday. The talker offered to read a Bible passage to me. I declined.

Door-to-door people are uncommon, but not unheard of here. A couple years back, some legislation passed about solar panels, and we were swarmed--a bunch of people from a bunch of different companies, trying to sell us on solar panels. The neighborhood was thick with them! I never noticed any actual installations--my guess is, we all had the same issue. Not the cost (well, maybe...), but the fact that they wouldn't work if the power went out. What's the point, then?