Need a Question Answered re: The Union Thing with Custodial Workers

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm big brothered at my desk job and starting in 2017 it'll be even more. Right now they only know exactly what I'm doing on my computer but have no clue what I do if I'm not at my desk or how long I may be away for lunch or whatever. I'm pretty sure in 2017 we are going to be swiping in and out of our office building so they'll know when we leave and come back for lunch. Right now we have a do your job and no one looks at the data policy but as cuts are going to happen soon I'm sure anyone who is slacking will have their internet usage pulled up and have that used against them in the firing process (not that have to in NYC since you can be fired with no explanation here).

I gotta be honest...that sounds nightmarish.

The older I get...the more value I see in the "human condition"...

What you describe is the "inhuman condition"

 

[wilkeliza]

I gotta be honest...that sounds nightmarish.

The older I get...the more value I see in the "human condition"...

What you describe is the "inhuman condition"

It is almost every office now. I don't know a single person who works for someone else (I.e. Not family owned/not mom and pop) who isn't tracked every day on their computer. Some have it far worse than me. At least my company doesn't block 90% of websites. I have some friends who can't use any program but the one their job need so they can't even google something.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

It is almost every office now. I don't know a single person who works for someone else (I.e. Not family owned/not mom and pop) who isn't tracked every day on their computer. Some have it far worse than me. At least my company doesn't block 90% of websites. I have some friends who can't use any program but the one their job need so they can't even google something.

...Still waiting for the part where it sounds "less horrid"...

 

[TwoMisfits]

It's a question of where workers will work better - at a job they feel is a joy or a job that feels like a prison. Most companies nowadays have forgotten how to manage and inspire and get the most out of workers, and instead rely on fear and big brother tactics to try to get the same output. Once you stop caring about employees (in that search for the almighty dollar - this is one part of the customer, employee, profit paradigm businesses have totally forgotten), they stop caring about you, and all the big brother tactics in the world won't stop them from blowing off the work or ditching you for someone else if they feel like screwing you over...

It's all good to say Disney will have that custodian right there to clean up the spill b/c they have them monitored...nothing says that employee won't walk as slowly as possible, clean as slowly as possible, find out they are missing something crucial to the clean up, and do whatever slowdowns or nonsense they feel like if they feel like Disney is screwing them over...if the Union went to court over this, it's probably safe to say the employees don't want this and adopting a policy they hate is not likely to inspire them to give it their all on the job...

 

[sachilles]

Here is the thing. If you signed up for a job, and the job description includes cleaning up motion sickness spills, it isn't unreasonable to expect that you'll do it. If you are skipping out, hoping someone else will do it, then it is failure to perform your job duties. I doubt there is anyone who'd say their dream job is cleaning vomit at the happiest place on earth, but it must be done. I dare say it is likely the most secure job you could have there.
We all know that it likely isn't a very pleasant job. However if you signed up to do it, you need to do it. Whether this is a passive aggressive way to ensure this gets done or not is not material. They know it's an issue. We all know that the company doesn't love to spend money if it doesn't have to. I can't imagine they want to spend money on this. They've either failed to manage, or previous union regs have prevented them from managing it.
I can only say that it's good they are trying to manage the problem now. One can hope that it generates a solution that both sides can work with.

 

[HopperFan]

It's a question of where workers will work better - at a job they feel is a joy or a job that feels like a prison. Most companies nowadays have forgotten how to manage and inspire and get the most out of workers, and instead rely on fear and big brother tactics to try to get the same output. Once you stop caring about employees (in that search for the almighty dollar - this is one part of the customer, employee, profit paradigm businesses have totally forgotten), they stop caring about you, and all the big brother tactics in the world won't stop them from blowing off the work or ditching you for someone else if they feel like screwing you over...

It's all good to say Disney will have that custodian right there to clean up the spill b/c they have them monitored...nothing says that employee won't walk as slowly as possible, clean as slowly as possible, find out they are missing something crucial to the clean up, and do whatever slowdowns or nonsense they feel like if they feel like Disney is screwing them over...if the Union went to court over this, it's probably safe to say the employees don't want this and adopting a policy they hate is not likely to inspire them to give it their all on the job...

And on the flip side, they will now have the information they need to fire employees who are doing just this. Right now it is more difficult because the system gives them the ability to avoid work, which is showing in the parks and elsewhere.

Using my Soarin' example.
Records will now show...
- Soarin' contacts custodial at 12:15 pm for spill
- Custodial knows CM345 is by the bathrooms at Garden Grill, the closest CM
- Custodial contacted CM345 to report to Soarin', just below them
- Custodial will see that CM345 arrived at Soarin at 12:40 pm - too long
- Soarin' will come back online at 1:10 pm - too long for a spill cleanup
- Supervisors will now discuss with CM345 their time management choices

 

[TwoMisfits]

And on the flip side, they will now have the information they need to fire employees who are doing just this. Right now it is more difficult because the system gives them the ability to avoid work, which is showing in the parks and elsewhere.

Using my Soarin' example.
Records will now show...
- Soarin' contacts custodial at 12:15 pm for spill
- Custodial knows CM345 is by the bathrooms at Garden Grill, the closest CM
- Custodial contacted CM345 to report to Soarin', just below them
- Custodial will see that CM345 arrived at Soarin at 12:40 pm - too long
- Soarin' will come back online at 1:10 pm - too long for a spill cleanup
- Supervisors will now discuss with CM345 their time management choices

Mine was an example - if you don't think disgruntled employees know how to "work the system" if they get pissed at the system, you haven't met disgruntled employees - it's like beating computer monitoring - having your work computer on the "right" thing while using your phone to do surfing...or pressing enough keys to show "reading" on a computer while talking to a friend...people have been beating "systems" since forever if they think big brother is doing it to screw them...people are nothing if not creative and motivated when given a reason...

 

[rteetz]

Mine was an example - if you don't think disgruntled employees know how to "work the system" if they get pissed at the system, you haven't met disgruntled employees - it's like beating computer monitoring - having your work computer on the "right" thing while using your phone to do surfing...or pressing enough keys to show "reading" on a computer while talking to a friend...people have been beating "systems" since forever if they think big brother is doing it to screw them...people are nothing if not creative and motivated when given a reason...

I agree with this. Heck we aren't Disney employees here (at least most of us aren't) and a lot of us know how to work the system during a Disney vacation. Everyone is always trying to work the system for their advantage.

 

[Madonna3]

But what we're all speculating on is how they get to choose their job assignments. We don't know what job assignments are available to choose from and how this system impacts their choice as this is what the argument is.

However, this is the problem I see:

"The futuristic system, called “Custodial of Tomorrow,” launched last week in, of all places, the theme park’s Tomorrowland. As they clock into work, custodians are handed an iPhone that tracks their location during their shifts. As trash cans need new liners, bathrooms need cleaning or a random mess in Disney World’s public areas need attention, messages will be automatically sent to the closest employee so that such tasks can be completed." from http://www.triplepundit.com/2016/11/gps-tracking-disney-world-causing-employee-angst/ is that if I am near Cosmic Ray's starlight café and there are 2 of us working and the other employee is near the tea cups, for example, can create more work for one and less for the other. Let's say there's a drink spill at Cosmic Ray's. I'm closest so I go. Then as soon as I am done, another page comes in for a bathroom clean. I get dispatched again because I am closest, leaving Tea cups person sitting on their laurels. So there must also be a way to divide the responsibilities evenly through ALL nearest employees.

But what is most intriguing to me is the consistent worry through all articles (probably because they are all citing the same source) "In an interview with the Orlando Sentinel, custodial workers said they were worried that they could lose seniority when it comes time to select their preferred assignments."

HOW? How does this prevent that? Is it because the ability to choose your assignment gets removed? What are the assignments? Do they have like 8 assignments per shift and the most senior person gets to pick first from those available 8? If you signed up to work in the custodial department then I believe you should be required to do all jobs within the custodial department. I don't know how they got to a system where you could pick and choose your jobs. Perhaps this was done at a time when they needed to entice employees to work in that department and it needs to go anyway.

Also, the article goes on to say: "For Disney World’s custodial employees, however, the overall concern is the loss of job autonomy, as their union’s contract with Disney allows them to focus on the type of work they prefer the most."

Work they prefer the most? Are you telling me there is someone out there who PREFERS cleaning protein spills vs taking out the trash?

Edit: Apparently the answer is yes.

"One of Unite Here's complaints is that senior janitors would no longer be able to choose whether they work in restrooms or in Disney's public areas. To protest, on Halloween about a dozen employees delivered a pumpkin that said "Rest in peace, seniority" to Magic Kingdom vice president Dan Cockerell.

Some custodians prefer street work because they don't want to clean toilets. Others prefer restrooms because the atmosphere is quieter and they don't have to lift such heavy garbage cans."

So yes, it seems they get, based on seniority first choice of where they want to work. Too bad, so sad. I agree with Disney on this one. Do your job, all aspects of your job, or get another job.

 

[sachilles]

To expand on your post Madonna3, after time, patterns will emerge. If one zone proves to have more work than another consistently, you with then augment the staff, or modify the zones.

If nothing else, they've learned with MagicBands that there is a wealth of information to be had in tracking patterns.

 

[Madonna3]

To expand on your post Madonna3, after time, patterns will emerge.

And we all know how great Disney is about time

 

[HopperFan]

And I don't think this is a problem with ALL Custodial CMs. I think there is a problem overall with enough of a problem we are seeing the results. It's about running it in an efficient manner and utilizing manpower all working hours.

Mine was an example - if you don't think disgruntled employees know how to "work the system" if they get pissed at the system, you haven't met disgruntled employees - it's like beating computer monitoring - having your work computer on the "right" thing while using your phone to do surfing...or pressing enough keys to show "reading" on a computer while talking to a friend...people have been beating "systems" since forever if they think big brother is doing it to screw them...people are nothing if not creative and motivated when given a reason...

What you describe is being allowed to work the system.

Disney is trying to create efficiency and accountability in a department that they clearly have issues with ... WE have visual proof of it.

But what we're all speculating on is how they get to choose their job assignments. We don't know what job assignments are available to choose from and how this system impacts their choice as this is what the argument is.

However, this is the problem I see:

"The futuristic system, called “Custodial of Tomorrow,” launched last week in, of all places, the theme park’s Tomorrowland. As they clock into work, custodians are handed an iPhone that tracks their location during their shifts. As trash cans need new liners, bathrooms need cleaning or a random mess in Disney World’s public areas need attention, messages will be automatically sent to the closest employee so that such tasks can be completed." from http://www.triplepundit.com/2016/11/gps-tracking-disney-world-causing-employee-angst/ is that if I am near Cosmic Ray's starlight café and there are 2 of us working and the other employee is near the tea cups, for example, can create more work for one and less for the other. Let's say there's a drink spill at Cosmic Ray's. I'm closest so I go. Then as soon as I am done, another page comes in for a bathroom clean. I get dispatched again because I am closest, leaving Tea cups person sitting on their laurels. So there must also be a way to divide the responsibilities evenly through ALL nearest employees.

But what is most intriguing to me is the consistent worry through all articles (probably because they are all citing the same source) "In an interview with the Orlando Sentinel, custodial workers said they were worried that they could lose seniority when it comes time to select their preferred assignments."

HOW? How does this prevent that? Is it because the ability to choose your assignment gets removed? What are the assignments? Do they have like 8 assignments per shift and the most senior person gets to pick first from those available 8? If you signed up to work in the custodial department then I believe you should be required to do all jobs within the custodial department. I don't know how they got to a system where you could pick and choose your jobs. Perhaps this was done at a time when they needed to entice employees to work in that department and it needs to go anyway.

Also, the article goes on to say: "For Disney World’s custodial employees, however, the overall concern is the loss of job autonomy, as their union’s contract with Disney allows them to focus on the type of work they prefer the most."

Work they prefer the most? Are you telling me there is someone out there who PREFERS cleaning protein spills vs taking out the trash?

Edit: Apparently the answer is yes.

"One of Unite Here's complaints is that senior janitors would no longer be able to choose whether they work in restrooms or in Disney's public areas. To protest, on Halloween about a dozen employees delivered a pumpkin that said "Rest in peace, seniority" to Magic Kingdom vice president Dan Cockerell.

Some custodians prefer street work because they don't want to clean toilets. Others prefer restrooms because the atmosphere is quieter and they don't have to lift such heavy garbage cans."

So yes, it seems they get, based on seniority first choice of where they want to work." Too bad, so sad. I agree with Disney on this one. Do your job, all aspects of your job, or get another job.

I see you kinda answered your own question. I think originally you were not simplifying it enough. Like many industries from WDW Custodial to commercial airline pilots - one can "bid" on shifts and locations. For Disney, due to it's size, I imagine efficiency is location, so keeping 2 CMs in Quadrant A to do ALL duties is more efficient than 3 CM working restrooms in Quadrants A-D, while 3 more do streets... With less ground to cover (and wasted walking time) and more broad responsibilities they should be working in coordination to keep their Quadrant spotless rather than wandering away from the stuff "they don't like" to the next area.

To expand on your post Madonna3, after time, patterns will emerge. If one zone proves to have more work than another consistently, you with then augment the staff, or modify the zones.

If nothing else, they've learned with MagicBands that there is a wealth of information to be had in tracking patterns.

YES!

It's more about efficiency and getting the work done using the manpower they have. AND since they will now be able to closer monitor the CMs and the custodial needs ... they will also see who is managing their time well, which areas seem to need more manpower than others, what times of day those areas need more or less manpower and making CMs accountable and owning their locations.

 

[HopperFan]

From their contract ... the part that talks about seniority and putting in for preferences in Custodial.

HOW? How does this prevent that? Is it because the ability to choose your assignment gets removed? What are the assignments? Do they have like 8 assignments per shift and the most senior person gets to pick first from those available 8? If you signed up to work in the custodial department then I believe you should be required to do all jobs within the custodial department. I don't know how they got to a system where you could pick and choose your jobs. Perhaps this was done at a time when they needed to entice employees to work in that department and it needs to go anyway.

Also, the article goes on to say: "For Disney World’s custodial employees, however, the overall concern is the loss of job autonomy, as their union’s contract with Disney allows them to focus on the type of work they prefer the most."

Work they prefer the most? Are you telling me there is someone out there who PREFERS cleaning protein spills vs taking out the trash?

Exercising Preference on Transfer

Exercising Preference on Transfer Employees who submit “preference sheets” to determine their weekly schedules and transfer into a work location in between schedule bids, will be allowed to submit “preference sheets” to exercise his/her seniority for time of day, hours per week, and location. This provision does not apply to days off.

The following items apply only to Attractions, Auto Plaza, Slide Operations, Ticketing and Custodial:

Internal Transfers

Host/ess transferring to a different work location in a Host/ess role shall be placed upon a twenty-one (21) day qualifying period. If the Company determines during the twenty-one (21) day qualifying period that the employee’s performance is not satisfactory, or if the employee requests a return to his/her previous position within the twenty-one (21) days, the Company will return the employee to his/her prior location. Employees returning to his/her previous line bid location will not be able to exercise his/her scheduling 78 seniority until the next schedule bid. Employees returning to his/her previous location, upon his/her request, will be able to exercise this option one (1) time per year.

 

[gwynne]

Well its been a while since I have been to the all-stars but I didn't find the bathrooms at 1900 Park Fare that bad in January.

The ladies room near 1900 Park Fare has nearly always been pretty awful when I've visited. I try to avoid it if possible.
Maybe it doesn't get checked enough, I don't know.

 

[wilkeliza]

I do have to wonder how many custodial CMs are actually against this. I remember when the union went into negotiations about 4 years ago now and I wasn't a member but what was looking at what they were fighting for since it would affect me (seasonal can't join the union or at least it was never offered to me) and it was so short sighted. Basically everyone would get a bonus now but the amount Disney was going to pay for insurance would not change and it might actually had even gone down over the length of that contract. People only saw the minimal raise percentages and upfront bonus not that over all they would loose more over the length of the contract. I couldn't believe that was what the union was fighting for not against.

 

[mcjaco]

And I was chastised last week for saying there's nothing but gloom and doom on these boards.

Silly me.

 

[rteetz]

And I was chastised last week for saying there's nothing but gloom and doom on these boards.

Silly me.

I agree to an extent. I think it has to do with people feeling there is doom and gloom in their every day lives. It just carries over here then. Now I don't think there is doom and gloom everywhere. There are plenty of positive things on these boards as well.

 

[maxiesmom]

It is almost every office now. I don't know a single person who works for someone else (I.e. Not family owned/not mom and pop) who isn't tracked every day on their computer. Some have it far worse than me. At least my company doesn't block 90% of websites. I have some friends who can't use any program but the one their job need so they can't even google something.

That would be me at work. Most sites are blocked. They don't want us even tempted to mess around on line on company time.

 

[writerguyfl]

I do have to wonder how many custodial CMs are actually against this. I remember when the union went into negotiations about 4 years ago now and I wasn't a member but what was looking at what they were fighting for since it would affect me (seasonal can't join the union or at least it was never offered to me) and it was so short sighted. Basically everyone would get a bonus now but the amount Disney was going to pay for insurance would not change and it might actually had even gone down over the length of that contract. People only saw the minimal raise percentages and upfront bonus not that over all they would loose more over the length of the contract. I couldn't believe that was what the union was fighting for not against.

This is an excellent point that hadn't occurred to me. But, there are plenty of example of union leadership not really representing the actual concerns of the rank and file.

Example: While I worked at the Disney Reservations Center (DRC), we went through a campaign to unionize. One of the reasons that the campaign failed was that none of the union representatives had ever worked in the positions they would be representing. So, some of their objectives didn't really align with how we worked.

At DRC, we had shift bids every few months. For various reasons, some people (myself included) highly prized schedules working four 10-hour days. Instead of working five consecutive days with 8-hour shifts, you worked four days with 10-hour shifts. The caveat was that overtime didn't kick in until 10 hours. For those on that schedule, that was an easy sell because it gave them an extra day off and one less day of commuting to/from work.

The union people didn't agree. They insisted that overtime should always kick in at 8 hours. Management told us that if they did that, the four/10 hour schedules would be eliminated. To those of us working there, it seemed as though the union wasn't particularly interested in finding out what we actually wanted.

(For the record, I'm not anti-union. I was just against that particular union.)

 

[Madonna3]

This is an excellent point that hadn't occurred to me. But, there are plenty of example of union leadership not really representing the actual concerns of the rank and file.

Example: While I worked at the Disney Reservations Center (DRC), we went through a campaign to unionize. One of the reasons that the campaign failed was that none of the union representatives had ever worked in the positions they would be representing. So, some of their objectives didn't really align with how we worked.

At DRC, we had shift bids every few months. For various reasons, some people (myself included) highly prized schedules working four 10-hour days. Instead of working five consecutive days with 8-hour shifts, you worked four days with 10-hour shifts. The caveat was that overtime didn't kick in until 10 hours. For those on that schedule, that was an easy sell because it gave them an extra day off and one less day of commuting to/from work.

The union people didn't agree. They insisted that overtime should always kick in at 8 hours. Management told us that if they did that, the four/10 hour schedules would be eliminated. To those of us working there, it seemed as though the union wasn't particularly interested in finding out what we actually wanted.

(For the record, I'm not anti-union. I was just against that particular union.)

That's kind of what I am wondering too. However, it seems the staff affected, or would be affected by this are primarily concerned with the loss of seniority and the privilege that comes with that as evidenced by their quiet protest of sending the pumpkin to MK president saying goodbye seniority or something similar.