NCLB and standardized testing

[golfgal]

I HATE, HATE, HATE NCLB. Ok, there is an article in our local paper stating that 45% of the schools didn't make adequate yearly progress. Fine, whatever, the problem is that there are schools where kids are 50% proficient that met the standard of making progress and schools that 98% of the kids that are proficient that didn't make the standard because they didn't "progress" from the 98% last year. THEN, take into consideration that they are testing DIFFERENT kids each year. If they want these tests to mean ANYTHING, they need to at least start testing the same kids EACH YEAR to decide of the schools are making "progress". How can you progress if you are starting new each year??? EVERY educator on the face of the earth will tell you that each class of kids is different (class meaning grade not socio-economic). Some classes are stronger academically then others and they will skew the results.

Then, factor in WHO isn't making progress and it is even more stupid. In our district the severely handicapped kids weren't able to pass the math or reading tests--never mind that these kids can't talk, walk or feed themselves but they better be able to pass the algebra tests in 11th grade??? All other 'groups' passed just fine but we aren't making 'progress'.

The funny thing is since NCLB was instituted the educational standards in our state have gone DOWN. That makes sense???

 

[Kathi OD]

NCLB was the most poorly conceived piece of legislation. Funds that should be spent on actually educating students are now being spent on teaching to a test. Too many schools (especially those where a high percentage of students are proficient) now feel the need to spend precious teaching time reviewing for the tests, rather than presenting new material, because there is so much concern about not making adequate yearly progress.

 

[Scurvy]

NCLB is one of the worst things ever to happen to the education system. It need serious changes or better yet it needs to be thrown out immediately.

 

[Linzybrooke]

Not to mention, if the educational system in Minnesota is suffering, then the majority of the rest of the nation is probably even worse off. Teaching in Texas has opened my eyes to how blessed I was to go through school in Minnesota...

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Our educational system has been on the decline since Carter decided to "help" it along by creating a cabinet level position and the Dept of Education..

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

I'm going to go against majority opinion and say as a parent that I like it, for the following reasons:

1. NCLB has made it crystal clear which counties in our area are dedicated to school excellence and which counties don't give a hoot. The county we moved from, 75% of the schools did not make NCLB. We moved to the county RIGHT NEXT TO IT where 100% did make NCLB. There's no excuse for that difference other than a deeply corrupt county putting the education of its students last, imo.

2. The testing pointed out a weakness our younger daughter had in understanding measurement and measuring items. Neither the teachers nor I had picked it up. She 'seemed' to understand it but really didn't, and we were able to fix it.

3. If a school doesnt make AYP it receives extra government funds to correct the situation. How is that ever bad? One year our county had the economically disadvanted kids in one high school not make AYP. The next year funds were made availabe to hire extra teachers to work with those kids more, and this year they passed. And on top of that, the graduation rate of those kids went from 65% to 85% in one year, suggesting that more attention paid to this subgroup resulted in them being better off in the long run.

4. After a certain point, AYP (adequate yearly progress) does not need to continue but be maintained, and the school is given the award of "Blue Ribbon School of Excellence" if it maintains that high level. There are platinum, gold, and silver awards for percentage of kids exceeding standards.
Kids are proud of this in their school, because they know they had a part in it. If you're moving into an area, having a blue ribbon school in the neighborhood's a good sign that things are working fairly well, education wise...

 

[Scurvy]

I'm going to go against majority opinion and say as a parent that I like it, for the following reasons:

1. NCLB has made it crystal clear which counties in our area are dedicated to school excellence and which counties don't give a hoot.

I really disagree with this. It makes it clear which schools are best at "teaching to the test", which isn't necessarily an indicator of the quality of education as a whole at the school. I don't entirely disagree with the whole concept of NCLB - I do think there were good intentions behind the creation of the program. The program as it stands now is seriously flawed, however.

Honestly (and this isn't aimed at Kickapoo) I think most parents don't realize how much better the education could be at most schools if the teachers weren't so focused on meeting the requirements of NCLB. Students would get a more thorough, well-rounded education if half the year wasn't spent focusing only on the test material.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...Honestly (and this isn't aimed at Kickapoo) I think most parents don't realize how much better the education could be at most schools if the teachers weren't so focused on meeting the requirements of NCLB. Students would get a more thorough, well-rounded education if half the year wasn't spent focusing only on the test material.

My children have attended 3 different elementary schools in 2 different states, and their teachers in all 3 school systems all agreed with this. Keep in mind that these were very good school systems, but the teachers felt that they lost too much classroom time to preparation for these tests. They felt that they accomplished a little less every year as more focus was placed on these tests...

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

I really disagree with this. It makes it clear which schools are best at "teaching to the test", which isn't necessarily an indicator of the quality of education as a whole at the school. I don't entirely disagree with the whole concept of NCLB - I do think there were good intentions behind the creation of the program. The program as it stands now is seriously flawed, however.

Honestly (and this isn't aimed at Kickapoo) I think most parents don't realize how much better the education could be at most schools if the teachers weren't so focused on meeting the requirements of NCLB. Students would get a more thorough, well-rounded education if half the year wasn't spent focusing only on the test material.

Interestingly, we've had our kids at a very expensive and supposedly prestigious private school, and the quality of teaching there was NOT up to par with the best public schools here. I think it's because they didn't need to test, didn't disclose how kids were doing on what tests they did do, and would not disclose the teacher's qualifications (which we eventually discovered were terribly lacking).

I think the transparency demanded by NCLB is refreshing. I'd like to see how some of those private schools did with the tests, how much info their kids really knew...

FWIW, the kids usually spend 8-12 weeks before the test prepping for it at their (public) school. It's not onerous; a few worksheets a day to get them into the rhythm of testing.

I don't have a problem with them "teaching to the test" if the test covers important information that they need to know. And from what I've seen, it does.

 

[golfgal]

I'm going to go against majority opinion and say as a parent that I like it, for the following reasons:

1. NCLB has made it crystal clear which counties in our area are dedicated to school excellence and which counties don't give a hoot. The county we moved from, 75% of the schools did not make NCLB. We moved to the county RIGHT NEXT TO IT where 100% did make NCLB. There's no excuse for that difference other than a deeply corrupt county putting the education of its students last, imo.

2. The testing pointed out a weakness our younger daughter had in understanding measurement and measuring items. Neither the teachers nor I had picked it up. She 'seemed' to understand it but really didn't, and we were able to fix it.

3. If a school doesnt make AYP it receives extra government funds to correct the situation. How is that ever bad? One year our county had the economically disadvanted kids in one high school not make AYP. The next year funds were made availabe to hire extra teachers to work with those kids more, and this year they passed. And on top of that, the graduation rate of those kids went from 65% to 85% in one year, suggesting that more attention paid to this subgroup resulted in them being better off in the long run.

4. After a certain point, AYP (adequate yearly progress) does not need to continue but be maintained, and the school is given the award of "Blue Ribbon School of Excellence" if it maintains that high level. There are platinum, gold, and silver awards for percentage of kids exceeding standards.
Kids are proud of this in their school, because they know they had a part in it. If you're moving into an area, having a blue ribbon school in the neighborhood's a good sign that things are working fairly well, education wise...

I think you are misinformed. First, the Blue Ribbon Standard, which our schools already have, do not exclude them from showing adequate yearly progress-our schools still have to show this but frankly, 98% proficient isn't going to GET any better no matter how many teachers they throw at the problem. Then, as far as federal funding, ,the schools get put on a hit list and if they don't progress after so many years the school gets taken over by the fed govn't or which ever agency they decide.

NCLB has only made it MORE clear that schools in disadvantaged area are going to perform worse then those in areas that are not. It doesn't mean the schools care more or less, they just don't have the baseline students to work for. I look at MN and if you look at the districts with the highest per pupil funding they are mostly the worst performing schools. Money isn't always the answer. The county right next to our's has the worst schools in the state and the highest per pupil funding amount and they STILL are the worst schools.

It is great that they were able to catch something with your dd but the old way of doing the testing and reporting would have caught that too.

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

This is what I've read:

"NCLB requires states to use a single accountability system for public schools to determine whether all students, as well as individual subgroups of students, are making progress toward meeting state academic content standards."

"NCLB’s ultimate goal is to have all students reaching proficient levels by 2014 as measured by performance on state tests"

The requirement is to make progress towards a stated standard, which is 100% of kids meeting the standards (note: NOT exceeding the standard). I don't think that's unreasonable; from what I've seen of the tests and how most kids do on them, meeting the standard is equivalent to performing at grade.

Once you have reached the "proficiency goal", as long as that goal is maintained the school is not punished for not making more progress:

"To make AYP, at least 95 percent of students ... must take the state tests, and each subgroup of students must meet or exceed the measurable annual objectives set by the state for each year."

In other words, if the stated AYP is met, even if it is identical to last year and the school performed exactly the same as it did last year, then the school is considered to have "made AYP." I have personally seen this happen at both elementary schools the kids have attended; the numbers were literally identical from one year to the next, both years the school made the platinum award. There was no improvement in the test scores, but the test scores were meeting AYP each year, so there was no problem.

I do think a significant failing of NCLB is the fact that states are allowed to set their own progress standards, accountability systems, and tests, rather than having them standardized throughout the US so true progress could be measured. I would like to know how my kids' school is doing vs. a high performing elementary school in massachusetts, for example. Unless they're using the same progress standards and tests, it's very difficult.

However, I maintain that a flawed system is better than none, and although NCLB has been in place since 1994, nothing better has come along.

 

[EthansMom]

At our excellent grade school, the teachers start teaching directly to the test (as in worksheets of old tests; homework problems in the same format as the test) at the beginning of Second Grade for a test that takes place in March of Third Grade. I wonder how much more time the teachers could cover if they used even half of the "test prep" time for other materials.

 

[MM27]

I'm going to go against majority opinion and say as a parent that I like it, for the following reasons:

1. NCLB has made it crystal clear which counties in our area are dedicated to school excellence and which counties don't give a hoot. The county we moved from, 75% of the schools did not make NCLB. We moved to the county RIGHT NEXT TO IT where 100% did make NCLB. There's no excuse for that difference other than a deeply corrupt county putting the education of its students last, imo.


3. If a school doesnt make AYP it receives extra government funds to correct the situation. How is that ever bad? One year our county had the economically disadvanted kids in one high school not make AYP. The next year funds were made availabe to hire extra teachers to work with those kids more, and this year they passed. And on top of that, the graduation rate of those kids went from 65% to 85% in one year, suggesting that more attention paid to this subgroup resulted in them being better off in the long run.

Part of the problem with NCLB is that many parents believe these things to be fact and then wonder why every child doesn't pass and every school doesn't make AYP.

The first point, I actually take offense to. I am a very dedicated teacher and I will honestly tell you that every year in my class I have kids that don't pass the NJASK, NJ's state testing. There are many factors that are not considered when people look only at test scores or whether a school made AYP. I have students that go to the library after school and sit there until 6 o'clock when their parent gets off of work because it's safer for them than going to their own home. I've had parents show up drunk and high to conferences. There are many kids in my school that don't have the support at home that many of their conterparts in suburban areas have. They come to school not knowing their colors, the ABCs, heck I have had 4th graders that had never heard common nursery rhymes that I was using to get them to identify rhyming words.

Don't get me wrong. I love teaching where I do. I know that I make a difference there and it feels so good when kids have those ah-ha moments. If I have a child that comes to my class in September reading on a 1st grade level in 4th grade, my job is to make sure they make progress. If they leave in June reading on a 3rd grade level, I have done my job. However, the state of NJ and NCLB will say that the child has failed.

As far as extra funding goes, many times that money never trickles down to the very people it was intended to help.

The requirement is to make progress towards a stated standard, which is 100% of kids meeting the standards (note: NOT exceeding the standard). I don't think that's unreasonable; from what I've seen of the tests and how most kids do on them, meeting the standard is equivalent to performing at grade.

You know that 100% includes special ed students as well as students that don't speak English right?
It is unrealistic to say that every child will be proficient.

 

[golfgal]

This is what I've read:

"NCLB requires states to use a single accountability system for public schools to determine whether all students, as well as individual subgroups of students, are making progress toward meeting state academic content standards."

"NCLB’s ultimate goal is to have all students reaching proficient levels by 2014 as measured by performance on state tests"

The requirement is to make progress towards a stated standard, which is 100% of kids meeting the standards (note: NOT exceeding the standard). I don't think that's unreasonable; from what I've seen of the tests and how most kids do on them, meeting the standard is equivalent to performing at grade.

Once you have reached the "proficiency goal", as long as that goal is maintained the school is not punished for not making more progress:

"To make AYP, at least 95 percent of students ... must take the state tests, and each subgroup of students must meet or exceed the measurable annual objectives set by the state for each year."

In other words, if the stated AYP is met, even if it is identical to last year and the school performed exactly the same as it did last year, then the school is considered to have "made AYP." I have personally seen this happen at both elementary schools the kids have attended; the numbers were literally identical from one year to the next, both years the school made the platinum award. There was no improvement in the test scores, but the test scores were meeting AYP each year, so there was no problem.

I do think a significant failing of NCLB is the fact that states are allowed to set their own progress standards, accountability systems, and tests, rather than having them standardized throughout the US so true progress could be measured. I would like to know how my kids' school is doing vs. a high performing elementary school in massachusetts, for example. Unless they're using the same progress standards and tests, it's very difficult.

However, I maintain that a flawed system is better than none, and although NCLB has been in place since 1994, nothing better has come along.

Again, to correct some information-schools have to show PROGRESS which means their scores have to get better each year-not even stay the same. You will NEVER measure true progress without testing all of the kids through all of the grades. Again, they test DIFFERENT kids every year and are only measuring last year's kids with this years kids which doesn't test progress at all. Also, each sub-group must pass to show AYP. OK, again with the severely disabled-95% of these kids have to take the test and pass and if they don't, the school doesn't pass, nevermind that these kids are not CAPABLE of even reading word one on the test.

I maintain that MN had a MUCH better system BEFORE NCLB. I am sure if you live in a state that had bad schools to begin with you might actually see some benefits from this but we sure don't.

 

[golfgal]

OK, I just double checked to make sure they hadn't changed the "progress" and scores from last year were the same as this year yet we didn't make "progress". I checked several other schools that didn't make progress and many of them have the same scores from last year and didn't make progress. I checked schools that did make progress and they went up about 1 point so they met the AYP. In our state you have to increase your scores each year to qualify.

edit--ok I read that again- our high school went UP in both math and reading and still didn't "make progress" I misread 90 to 96.

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

The first point, I actually take offense to. I am a very dedicated teacher and I will honestly tell you that every year in my class I have kids that don't pass the NJASK, NJ's state testing. There are many factors that are not considered when people look only at test scores or whether a school made AYP. I have students that go to the library after school and sit there until 6 o'clock when their parent gets off of work because it's safer for them than going to their own home. I've had parents show up drunk and high to conferences. There are many kids in my school that don't have the support at home that many of their conterparts in suburban areas have. They come to school not knowing their colors, the ABCs, heck I have had 4th graders that had never heard common nursery rhymes that I was using to get them to identify rhyming words.

I do need to clarify that none of my scorn would ever be turned towards a teacher. I think teachers as a whole do an incredible job with what they are given.

My problem is is that some counties are terribly corrupt or incompetent at "giving" for education-which is reinforced by what you say below:

As far as extra funding goes, many times that money never trickles down to the very people it was intended to help.

I totally agree with this, we saw it in the county we left. However, because of NCLB, they were increasingly unable to hide the corruption that resulted in one high school having holes in the ceiling and not enough teachers and another school with an indoor olympic swimming pool that STILL didn't have enough teachers. I think with enough teachers, there are very, very few kids out there that couldn't make AYP. I think those kids probably shouldn't be in mainstream schools, given enough teachers.

You know that 100% includes special ed students as well as students that don't speak English right?
It is unrealistic to say that every child will be proficient.

I do know that. This year our special ed kids and the ESL kids all made proficiency. I know it can be done. I've seen it.

Again, to correct some information-schools have to show PROGRESS which means their scores have to get better each year-not even stay the same.

I believe you are incorrect on this. I saw the scores over three years from our elementary school. Each year they were the same, plus or minus, within one to three points, for each grade level and each subject. Each year the school received a platinum award and was a blue ribbon school of excellence. The school did not improve each year, but it did maintain a high level of proficiency, ie "met AYP proficiency."

 

[MM27]

I believe you are incorrect on this. I saw the scores over three years from our elementary school. Each year they were the same, plus or minus, within one to three points, for each grade level and each subject. Each year the school received a platinum award and was a blue ribbon school of excellence. The school did not improve each year, but it did maintain a high level of proficiency, ie "met AYP proficiency."

I don't know how other states work, but in NJ the numbers go up each year to meet AYP. My school is nowhere near the 90% range, but we have gone from 50-something proficient requirement a couple of years ago to 76% this year for math and 82% for Language Arts.

On the actual test the scores for passing remain the same, but our test has changed over the years.

 

[golfgal]

I believe you are incorrect on this. I saw the scores over three years from our elementary school. Each year they were the same, plus or minus, within one to three points, for each grade level and each subject. Each year the school received a platinum award and was a blue ribbon school of excellence. The school did not improve each year, but it did maintain a high level of proficiency, ie "met AYP proficiency."

That must be a difference with your state then because I looked over the results for many districts around here to see if maybe it was just our district that had the policy that they must show progress-there was one top rated district that had the same score of 81 for 3 years in a row and didn't show progress, this year they moved up to 82 and "showed progress". None of the schools that stayed the same showed AYP.

I looked into the numbers for our district again because our numbers went UP this year yet we didn't make AYP, the only thing I can see is that the special ed kids went from 18% proficient to 16%-so that sub group didn't make progress so the whole school didn't make progress.

The point is really moot because again, they aren't tracking the same kids through the school so their data is flawed to start with. You can't show progress if you have a new baseline group every year. It just doesn't work that way.

Again, NCLB is NOT a good thing-it brings good schools DOWN.

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

It may be because of the numbers.

The elementary school consistently posted numbers in the mid to high 90's. I think that they were "at the finish line" so to speak in terms of meeting ayp.

I think schools that are scoring in the 80's have to continue progressing towards the goal to keep qualifying. In the case of our school, we were at the finish line, the school just had to maintain those numbers.

ETA: "mid to high 90's" specifically means that 95--98% of the students "met or exceeded ayp", based on the CRCT tests. I don't know if other states use the same test. Which is one of the issues in my mind. I'm not bothered by the different crop of kids coming through each year-if the educational infrastructure is good, the third graders from ten years ago should score as well as the third graders today if the school is meeting AYP at a 90th percentile or above...

 

[golfgal]

It may be because of the numbers.

The elementary school consistently posted numbers in the mid to high 90's. I think that they were "at the finish line" so to speak in terms of meeting ayp.

I think schools that are scoring in the 80's have to continue progressing towards the goal to keep qualifying. In the case of our school, we were at the finish line, the school just had to maintain those numbers.

ETA: "mid to high 90's" specifically means that 95--98% of the students "met or exceeded ayp", based on the CRCT tests. I don't know if other states use the same test. Which is one of the issues in my mind. I'm not bothered by the different crop of kids coming through each year-if the educational infrastructure is good, the third graders from ten years ago should score as well as the third graders today if the school is meeting AYP at a 90th percentile or above...

Your assumptions about 3rd graders passing is wrong. Yes, they should pass but they won't pass at the same rates and the blend of kids is always going to be different so that effects the outcome as well. You could have one class of 3rd graders with outstanding students, no kids with learning disabilities and have them score 98% proficient then the next year might have some really great students but a higher concentration of kids that have learning difficulties of some form or another and only pass 87% of the kids. Does that mean the school went downhill, NO, it means that it is a different class of kids.

What they need to do is look at the progress EACH CHILD makes from year to year to really determine of a school is doing their job. If you take a 1st grader that can't read at the beginning of 1st grade and bring her up to read chapter books by the end of first grade-that is progress. Take that same girl in 2nd grade and she hasn't progressed past the basic chapter books by the end of 2nd grade, that is not progress vs what NCLB does do is take a class of 1st graders that can all read basic chapter books at the start of 1st grade and still can only read basic chapter books by the end of 1st grade but they already have a baseline that is enough to pass the test, is that progress-NO but then the next year they get a group of kids that can't read at the beginning of school and take them up to reading basic chapter books, except 4 kids that can't read at all because they have a learning disability. The class scores lower as a whole then the class before them and they are labeled "not showing progress" yet they are the only class that really DID show progress. THIS is what is wrong with NCLB.