Nasty Menu Changes Teppan Edo & Tokyo Dining

[Lisa F]

Well, you are only focusing on one aspect of what I wrote. But, in regards to that, I do think that the DDP has caused prices to rise, because it has caused demand to rise. There are a number of people that would never have eaten at Le Cellier, or California Grill for instance if they were paying OOP. But since they are on the DDP, they want to "get their moneys worth" and so they go to those restaurants, demand rises, they charge higher prices and price some people out, but the demand stems from the DDP.

I don't think that's true at all - the high demand places have always been high demand and hard to get. CA Grill and Le Cellier and CRT have always been coveted ADRs and they are now among the worst values on the DDP because of their 2TS status, but it doesn't keep them from being difficult ADRs to get if you don't plan in advance. I think you are right that the DDP (and particularly free DDP) has filled restaurants, but that is kind of the point. Empty seats does not make disney any money. I think the prices rise because they can... dining isn't the only places where prices have gone through the roof at disney.

 

[Lisa F]

Before the DDP plan food quality in Epcot was much better in my opinion, prices were also surprisingly reasonable compared to off site.

Prices everywhere have gone up - that is the reality I get that - I eat out at least once a week - but in Disney prices have gone up and quality and innovation has gone down as far as I am concerned. If the quality was the same I'd be very happy with DDP or paying OOP at the current prices.

There are plenty who agree with that and plenty that don't. Many of the people that were long time hard core members of this board and agreed with that have completely disappeared from this board over the last year or two it seems to me. I'm quite surprised by some of the people that are gone. Maybe like me they took a break for a year.

Anyway with the addition of the DDP things did change - some of the more unusual items were removed because people just ordered the most expensive thing on the menu to get value from the DDP. When they got it they did not like it and sent it back to the kitchen and picked something else...so eventually these items were removed from menus to reduce waste. I recall the mussels being an issue back when they appetizer was part of the DDP. That was around year two of the DDP. Since then Disney has fully optimized the DDP to the point I see no value in paying out of pocket for any of the TS meals at Disney..although I may try one or two this year just because they menus are looking more interesting.

Another factor is that some of the restaurants are not owned by Disney - so those places get a small amount of money for the meals from the DDP, so they have to make that up somewhere - a lot of that is from the Alcohol. Over the years I heard this complaint from more than one manager in Epcot. If you get $16 for a drink, meal and dessert you have to make that up somewhere...to be profitable you have to cost that meal at $5 to cover expenses to make and serve that meal. Even with all the standardization and optimization at Disney that is pretty tough - and if only 50% of your customers are on DDP that would be tough. Something has to give so you charge more to make up for it from the people that pay OOP.

To me it has gotten to the point where I feel that if you do not have the DDP there is no point in eating a TS in Disney - the OOP price it not in line with the quality - even if you consider the location. If you are on DDP (free or as an add on - it really does not matter - I don't have the issue with "free" DDP that others seem to have) then that is a different story.

Before DDP I went to Disney three times a year...now I go a week every other year and spend more time at Universal - because the food is better IMO.
I just don't see the reason to pay out of pocket in Disney for food that is chain quality.

For a family of four "adults" staying at all stars with free QSDP and upgrading to the DDP it is a great deal - no question there.
It works great for you - but that does not mean that those of us who dislike it should just go away and not offer our opinion.

Now that Disney is less concerned about attendance and looking to maximize profit per customer (Chief Executive Officer Bob Iger told analysts the company was focusing on raising revenue even at the expense of attendance increases. "We like the steps we've taken in terms of pricing," he said. "We've taken a number of steps … to essentially grow revenue, in some cases actually at the expense of some attendance." (from the Orlando Sentinel)) it will be interesting to see where things go from here.

When I said prices went up everywhere I meant at disney specifically, not everywhere in the outside world. I remember when the DDP became a thing. I remember the $145 a night AP rate at the deluxe resorts. I remember paying $130 a night to stay at the contemporary (yes it was in the garden wings but still). I remember the $375 premium AP. I remember paying $65 a point - $10/point magical beginnings for my DVC and weighing that against the AP cash rate for the deluxe resorts I preferred. Now a good rate at a deluxe has got to be double that. I just paid nearly $600 for a regular (not premium) AP for my son with blackout dates (and that is the florida resident rate). DVC is $140-160 per point now from Disney. I do not think that the restaurant price hikes are out of line for what is going on at disney. I also live in a resort area (Martha's Vineyard) and summer restaurant prices are similar for often mediocre food so it's not really out of line for other expensive resort destinations as well.

I bought into DVC in 1999 and was going 3-4 times a year for years, so I remember what it was like back in the day and I remember the first year or two the DDP coming out people saying that it was killing quality and making prices go up etcetc. This is not an argument new to the last year or two, it's been going on a decade at least. I agree that DDP raises demand on all of the restaurants, but that's what Disney is good at... separating people from their money in creative ways that make you feel good.

And I don't think people are moving on from Disney because of the DDP and how it ruined everything. I think people just get bored. Because of life circumstances my 3-4 trips a year became 1 a year and then none for 5 years and my first trip back after that break was AMAZING. Everything tasted good, everything looked good. Nothing puts the shine back on the pixie dust like a break and nothing tarnishes the pixie dust like too much exposure. I've been on the disboards myself for over 16 years and I've seen a lot of angst, a lot of drama, a lot of people taking breaks and have taken a break myself. I think all of that would be happening whether or not the DDP existed.

 

[tony67]

When I said prices went up everywhere I meant at disney specifically, not everywhere in the outside world. I remember when the DDP became a thing. I remember the $145 a night AP rate at the deluxe resorts. I remember paying $130 a night to stay at the contemporary (yes it was in the garden wings but still). I remember the $375 premium AP. I remember paying $65 a point - $10/point magical beginnings for my DVC and weighing that against the AP cash rate for the deluxe resorts I preferred. Now a good rate at a deluxe has got to be double that. I just paid nearly $600 for a regular (not premium) AP for my son with blackout dates (and that is the florida resident rate). DVC is $140-160 per point now from Disney. I do not think that the restaurant price hikes are out of line for what is going on at disney. I also live in a resort area (Martha's Vineyard) and summer restaurant prices are similar for often mediocre food so it's not really out of line for other expensive resort destinations as well.

I bought into DVC in 1999 and was going 3-4 times a year for years, so I remember what it was like back in the day and I remember the first year or two the DDP coming out people saying that it was killing quality and making prices go up etcetc. This is not an argument new to the last year or two, it's been going on a decade at least. I agree that DDP raises demand on all of the restaurants, but that's what Disney is good at... separating people from their money in creative ways that make you feel good.

I think we pretty much agree on most of this.
As for the price increases everywhere I was really saying that to put my comments in perspective.
I not just some grumpy old guy complaining about prices and yelling at kids to get off my lawn - but as you point out Disney has gone up quite a bit more.
In the end if the price of the CR goes up - it is still the same CR - if the price of a meal at Disney goes up the same percentage but the quality goes down it is not the same IMO.

And I don't think people are moving on from Disney because of the DDP and how it ruined everything. I think people just get bored. Because of life circumstances my 3-4 trips a year became 1 a year and then none for 5 years and my first trip back after that break was AMAZING. Everything tasted good, everything looked good. Nothing puts the shine back on the pixie dust like a break and nothing tarnishes the pixie dust like too much exposure. I've been on the disboards myself for over 16 years and I've seen a lot of angst, a lot of drama, a lot of people taking breaks and have taken a break myself. I think all of that would be happening whether or not the DDP existed.

True that DDP is not the only thing - but for some of us it has been one of the major things that seems to have affected our experience.
There are lots of other things for example the money grab around F&W has been a bit much IMO. I had no issue when they started charging a nominal fee for the seminars - but when it went to $15 and I am already paying for Epcot admission it is out of hand. Many of these are really just product commercials and nothing more - Does Inbev pay Disney to be there and then Disney charges us to go to their product presentation? Seems like it.
I took a break from F&W last year - so maybe you are right and I'll come back saying it was amazing..

Anyway as always on the DIS this thread is straying from eh original question as these things tend to.

 

[Lisa F]

I think we pretty much agree on most of this.
As for the price increases everywhere I was really saying that to put my comments in perspective.
I not just some grumpy old guy complaining about prices and yelling at kids to get off my lawn - but as you point out Disney has gone up quite a bit more.
In the end if the price of the CR goes up - it is still the same CR - if the price of a meal at Disney goes up the same percentage but the quality goes down it is not the same IMO.

Yeah I do know that prices go up everywhere, but that wasn't really my point about it... and after taking such a long break from going to WDW I was pretty sticker shocked when I went back and saw how much everything had gone up. I don't remember since going for the first time where I paid my way in High School in 1995 or my first time as an adult in 1998 that prices at the restaurants were particularly reasonable at WDW. I was born and raised in NYC so I think I have a reasonable comparison pricewise from a high cost of living area and I remember as long as I've been going to have to readjust for "disney prices" at the restaurants and just accept things were ridiculously overpriced. I'm just talking about my long term perceptions and they are not really any different now than 18 years ago. I also did not perceive a noticeable dip in quality at any of the restaurants we went to. Have read mediocre reviews about CA Grill but everything I had was great (in 2014) and it was pretty much exactly the way I remembered it. I've been to V&A and I've even done the chef's table at V&A (both a long time ago) so I have some basic foodie cred . Went to some other old favorites and they were all as I remembered them too. Some changes yes but basically mostly as I remembered them.

True that DDP is not the only thing - but for some of us it has been one of the major things that seems to have affected our experience.
There are lots of other things for example the money grab around F&W has been a bit much IMO. I had no issue when they started charging a nominal fee for the seminars - but when it went to $15 and I am already paying for Epcot admission it is out of hand. Many of these are really just product commercials and nothing more - Does Inbev pay Disney to be there and then Disney charges us to go to their product presentation? Seems like it.
I took a break from F&W last year - so maybe you are right and I'll come back saying it was amazing..

Anyway as always on the DIS this thread is straying from eh original question as these things tend to.

Familiarity does breed contempt. The DDP is hardly new though, it has been around at least a decade at this point but it seems like every time a change is made it is the end of the world as we know it, and the DDP is to blame. For a decade now. If every time the change was as bad as people thought we'd be eating dogfood by now after 10 years of it.

 

[Anthony1971]

I don't think that's true at all - the high demand places have always been high demand and hard to get. CA Grill and Le Cellier and CRT have always been coveted ADRs and they are now among the worst values on the DDP because of their 2TS status, but it doesn't keep them from being difficult ADRs to get if you don't plan in advance. I think you are right that the DDP (and particularly free DDP) has filled restaurants, but that is kind of the point. Empty seats does not make disney any money. I think the prices rise because they can... dining isn't the only places where prices have gone through the roof at disney.

I 100000000% disagree.. we have been going to Disney almost yearly since 1990 and family trips when younger... We could walk into Le Cellier at ANY time of the day we felt like get a table with no wait... the food was great and the prices were reasonable... First year FD was not aware of it until after the trip.. walked in and the place was packed would have had to wait left and never went back... sorry but I can make a HUGE list of changes that happened after FD started from things being dropped and replaced with a cheaper cut of meat to price changes that make 0 sense other than to make a person feel like they are getting a good value of the buy or get the DP for free. a lot of HUGE changes happened in one year one example was every menu had a Filet on it... for a few dollars more than the NY strip.. next year GONE only NY strip and a 5-6 increase over the filet price NOT the NY strip price. The famed Ohana was always known as the value restaurant at the POLY as it was far cheaper then Kona and all you can eat... Now it is expensive the food is not so good and packed... also another place you could eat at ANY time you wanted..... I am not against the DP (never use now did a few times when the tip was included) but it has in fact caused a lot of true nasty changes for Disney dining.... you can disagree however much you want but the people who have been to Disney before FD will always say different as we saw the fast and drastic changes in that year...

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

Familiarity does breed contempt. The DDP is hardly new though, it has been around at least a decade at this point but it seems like every time a change is made it is the end of the world as we know it, and the DDP is to blame. For a decade now. If every time the change was as bad as people thought we'd be eating dogfood by now after 10 years of it.

You made me laugh out loud.

I wonder about all of the people that claim that they must rethink their entire day, because one option on one menu has changed. Or how an entire menu is now trashed or "nasty" because one item is not on the dining plan. Or if it is on the plan, it is now smaller or doesn't come with all of the add on items.

Yes, I understand how the plan works. Yes, I've used it before. In fact, I calculate, for every trip, how much we will be spending for dining. Sometimes I use the plan, sometimes I don't.

So, no, I am not coming from a position of hating the plan. In fact, we were within $50 of using the plan for our next trip.

I am coming from a position of not understanding how one menu item can cause so much turmoil.

 

[Lisa F]

You made me laugh out loud.

I wonder about all of the people that claim that they must rethink their entire day, because one option on one menu has changed. Or how an entire menu is now trashed or "nasty" because one item is not on the dining plan. Or if it is on the plan, it is now smaller or doesn't come with all of the add on items.

Yes, I understand how the plan works. Yes, I've used it before. In fact, I calculate, for every trip, how much we will be spending for dining. Sometimes I use the plan, sometimes I don't.

So, no, I am not coming from a position of hating the plan. In fact, we were within $50 of using the plan for our next trip.

I am coming from a position of not understanding how one menu item can cause so much turmoil.

Well that's the thing. Surf and Turf is not gone from Narcoossees, it's just not included as one meal for the plan. It was always a $70+ meal if you paid OOP. I am not arguing that the value of the plan can be iffy under certain circumstances, and separating things out as enhancements does diminish value for the plan. If I was going to drop $75 on a meal paying oop I would not care if it was a $50 steak and a $25 enhancement or a $75 meal. So those are changes that people protest but if you are paying OOP it really has no impact on you.

Yes, there have been changes to the menus. Yes, prices have gone up. I am arguing that prices would have gone up even without the DDP given how much everything has gone up at Disney. I think the problem is when prices go up, people expect a corresponding rise in quality or feeling that they are getting more, and if they're not then they automatically correlate that with a lowering of quality.

 

[SBWB48]

I don't think that's true at all - the high demand places have always been high demand and hard to get. CA Grill and Le Cellier and CRT have always been coveted ADRs and they are now among the worst values on the DDP because of their 2TS status, but it doesn't keep them from being difficult ADRs to get if you don't plan in advance. I think you are right that the DDP (and particularly free DDP) has filled restaurants, but that is kind of the point. Empty seats does not make disney any money. I think the prices rise because they can... dining isn't the only places where prices have gone through the roof at disney.

I am not against the DP (never use now did a few times when the tip was included) but it has in fact caused a lot of true nasty changes for Disney dining.... you can disagree however much you want but the people who have been to Disney before FD will always say different as we saw the fast and drastic changes in that year...

As Lisa F mentioned, it isn't quite just dining at Disney that has seen prices skyrocket, but it's everything across the board whether it be rooms, tickets, apparel, and the list goes on. FD may have contributed to food costs rising, but at the end of the day, companies are facing immense pressure now than ever before to generate higher revenue and beat on earnings quarter over quarter and year over year.

I hate to go on a slight tangent, but the stock market within the last couple years alone has been inflated to the point where it's essentially an artificial bubble; companies are struggling to keep pace with this "growth" built into the stock price and the pressure to further elevate stock prices has companies scrambling. If top line revenue growth isn't happening (and I would say the money is made probably more so in ticket sales, resorts, and experiences over dining) in the case of lower attendance this summer being a recent example, Disney will need to find ways to boost bottom line earnings and in the case of earnings, if it's not top line revenue growth, the only other way you can grow earnings is by cutting costs, especially when costs are only increasing. I'm not defending price hikes across the board by Disney, but to entirely attribute the menu changes to FD or the DDP is not entirely fair I guess.

Similarly, it is difficult to carry, apply, and expect the same 'quality' of an experience from prior years (back then) into perpetuity, especially given the growth in demand over time. While we may expect the world from Disney given it's brand reputation and status as "the happiest place in the world", at the end of the day, it's a business. Heck, even the price of a McDonald's meal is no longer what it used to be, and quality is not necessarily a factor in the case of McDonalds either, yet, the price of a big mac goes no where but up. The same can be said for everything from sporting events to even Chuck E Cheese (as a child, this was the happiest place in the world ). I used to be able to get tickets to a football game with my family for no more than $100 a ticket for decent seats, but that is NOT happening these days for anything close to the same seats. There's just more people than ever wanting to go despite now paying $15 for the same burger I used to get as a teen for $8. Owners making more, players getting paid more, guests are being charged more. Similar principle.

Now back to the original discussion...That being said, quality is definitely no where near what we used to get, but those events and places seemingly are also charging higher prices than ever. The ability to make things cheaper now compared to before also doesn't help companies want or feel the need to improve quality because again, there's demand from consumers in the case of Disney, however, there's also a way to pad their bottom line by reducing costs. While Universal has certainly put pressure on Disney to better their product, there is no denying it's still two different markets and Disney will still "get theirs". Again, as a paying customer of Disney, I expect quality as well for what I'm paying for, but I think controlled expectations can ultimately mold one's experiences. Those who get to go multiple times a year or simply every year may lose some of the magic because eventually the novelty does wear off. However, those who have breaks in between may be going into with a different perspective.

 

[Lisa F]

I 100000000% disagree.. we have been going to Disney almost yearly since 1990 and family trips when younger... We could walk into Le Cellier at ANY time of the day we felt like get a table with no wait... the food was great and the prices were reasonable... First year FD was not aware of it until after the trip.. walked in and the place was packed would have had to wait left and never went back... sorry but I can make a HUGE list of changes that happened after FD started from things being dropped and replaced with a cheaper cut of meat to price changes that make 0 sense other than to make a person feel like they are getting a good value of the buy or get the DP for free. a lot of HUGE changes happened in one year one example was every menu had a Filet on it... for a few dollars more than the NY strip.. next year GONE only NY strip and a 5-6 increase over the filet price NOT the NY strip price. The famed Ohana was always known as the value restaurant at the POLY as it was far cheaper then Kona and all you can eat... Now it is expensive the food is not so good and packed... also another place you could eat at ANY time you wanted..... I am not against the DP (never use now did a few times when the tip was included) but it has in fact caused a lot of true nasty changes for Disney dining.... you can disagree however much you want but the people who have been to Disney before FD will always say different as we saw the fast and drastic changes in that year...

There was a time when you didn't need a reservation at any disney restaurant but having their restaurants half empty is not good business for anyone. Having them reserved and full is good business. The DDP was a way to get more people into restaurants and keep them on property to spend their money. But for a very long time now, the most popular restaurants have required advance planning to get into. I am not a fan of free dining either because it wildly outscales demand with supply so I'm with you there. My point is that Disney cutting costs and raising prices is not exclusive to restaurants. DDP is the dining version of shanghai. Everything is blamed on it.

 

[tony67]

I 100000000% disagree.. we have been going to Disney almost yearly since 1990 and family trips when younger... We could walk into Le Cellier at ANY time of the day we felt like get a table with no wait... the food was great and the prices were reasonable... First year FD was not aware of it until after the trip.. walked in and the place was packed would have had to wait left and never went back... sorry but I can make a HUGE list of changes that happened after FD started from things being dropped and replaced with a cheaper cut of meat to price changes that make 0 sense other than to make a person feel like they are getting a good value of the buy or get the DP for free. a lot of HUGE changes happened in one year one example was every menu had a Filet on it... for a few dollars more than the NY strip.. next year GONE only NY strip and a 5-6 increase over the filet price NOT the NY strip price. The famed Ohana was always known as the value restaurant at the POLY as it was far cheaper then Kona and all you can eat... Now it is expensive the food is not so good and packed... also another place you could eat at ANY time you wanted..... I am not against the DP (never use now did a few times when the tip was included) but it has in fact caused a lot of true nasty changes for Disney dining.... you can disagree however much you want but the people who have been to Disney before FD will always say different as we saw the fast and drastic changes in that year...

This is exactly what I see and have been saying for years....unfortunately there are those that think Disney can do no wrong (I am speaking in general and not to anyone specific on this thread!!!) or that we should just be happy we are in Disney.

I actually had one person respond to me a few years back something along the lines of she did not care if Coral Reef served her a QS quality burger and cold fries as long as it was in that dining room. She was in Disney and she was happy no matter what. Great for her what about the rest of us? I would really like to have a fire roasted Piranha at Coral reef again..one of the best Disney meals I ever had.

I had complained on here about the 1mm thick (well maybe 2mm) creme brulee at Le Celleir - I especially annoyed when the waitress came back and said to me - wow you already finished it - and yet I am in the wrong on this site somehow - and I know nothing about Creme Brulee. Well I've had it in Canada and Belgium and France and even Australia so I might know what I am expecting in a creme Brulee as a minimum. Maybe not the best - and I don't claim to be an expert - but Im sure one at the F&W booth would have been better than what they served - and I was paying OOP!!!
To me Le Celleir is the Outback quality food at Capitol Grille prices - it is beyond overrated.

To me a big part of the issue is the Disney can do no wrong crowd - but they will point to me as the Disney can do no right crowd.

I do have to say there are a lot less of the Disney Fanboys and Fangirls in the last few years.

As for those who say you have to take a break from Disney..I don't go to Disney for the Mouse stuff. I went for other reason that I have already discussed, such as F&W. It is not that I have been to the restaurants too many times and I need a break, it is the food quality has gone down. There are restaurants locally that I eat at at least once a month and I don't need a break from them. Why would I need a break from a restaurant I might eat at once a year?

I had high hopes for Disney Springs - but I am seeing some not so great reviews of some of those places - including Morimoto's.
If this because they have to provide meals within the budget of the DDP?
I have found the appetizers at Disney to be much better than the meals for the most part..again is this because the meals have to fit within the credit they get for the meal and be profitable? The apps not so much.

 

[rinnythepooh]

Please, could anyone who has experienced the new menu at Tokyo Dining please let me know what they think of it? We need to make some decisions regarding our ADRS for our upcoming vacation. Is there a better thread that I should be looking at regarding their menu changes? I do appreciate everyone's views regarding the DDP, but I could really use some reviews regarding the items on the new menu. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[DCJ]

We had a reservation for this coming week at Tokyo Dining, after seeing the menu changes, I'm ready to bail on it. It's a little hard to figure out the menu, but it looks like it was a step down. Bento box gone, steak gone...

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

We had a reservation for this coming week at Tokyo Dining, after seeing the menu changes, I'm ready to bail on it. It's a little hard to figure out the menu, but it looks like it was a step down. Bento box gone, steak gone...

Which steak are you talking about? The filet is still there.

 

[DCJ]

Which steak are you talking about? The filet is still there.

I see the Filet Mignon on the menu still listed on the Disney site, but on the new menu posted July 2016 on another site, , it doesn't show it. It looks like they knocked it down to six entrees.
I hope I'm wrong, we were looking forward to this restaurant.

 

[rinnythepooh]

Has anyone eaten at Tokyo Dining since the menu changed? How was it?

 

[joanne.sear]

Has anyone eaten at Tokyo Dining since the menu changed? How was it?

I am also interested to hear about it if anyone has

 

[SGMCO]

We ate there for dinner on Sept. 15th, DH and I ordered Fish, it was very good, but portions very small. The menu on Allears is not the menu we used, I don't see the fish listed. DS ordered the Sushi platter, he thought it was OK. We all ordered the Green Tea Ice Cream and it was good.

 

[sharadoc]

No more Bento and the great sushi assortment platter is gone from Tokyo Dining. For that reason, we are going to eat at Katsura Grill instead. We want Ramen, Curry and sake and we'll be good!

 

[zebsterama]

I am also interested to hear about it if anyone has

We were at Teppan Edo in mid August - the food quality, service, and experience was excellent.

I had the steak and chicken combo (which i think is one of the most expensive items on the menu).

I'm not a Disney apologist by any stretch. Was it pricey? --- oh yeah ... and I'm Canadian -- so add a solid 25% with the exchange rate.
Was it worth it? Well ... when compared to other Disney TS restaurants I would say yes.

We will definitely be there for our next trip.

 

[SGMCO]

No more Bento and the great sushi assortment platter is gone from Tokyo Dining. For that reason, we are going to eat at Katsura Grill instead. We want Ramen, Curry and sake and we'll be good!

My DS had the Sushi Assortment platter last month.