My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding?

[princess_ariel_85]

Well... that's what I want. DF wants the same thing. Someday when we can afford it on his pay alone, I will be a stay at home wife (and hopefully mother). And I won't be useless... we won't have to pay for childcare because I'll be there, he won't have to buy meals or eat out as much when working because I'll be making meals, and we we will have a cleaner house too.

Obviously these girls don't really have many opportunities or choices presented to them... but being submissive to your spouse and trusting that their love and decision making isn't always a bad thing.

It's not always a bad thing no, in many respects thats what I want from marraige to an extent.

But I think to understand what another poster said you should watch the show - it's hard to explain in words, it's a completely different world they live in. These gypsy wives leave behind their friends and loose their freedom in a way.

Females aren't allowed to approach the males, the males are supposed to do the 'grabbing'. One episode showed a lad pushing a girl up against the wall in an attempt to get her attention. They believe its a mans world and they should act accordingly with this.

Most gypsy girls go to school until about the age of 11. Most gypsies have a few children so the oldest stays at home and does the housework, then at about 16 (18 is considered an old age to get married) they marry and stay at home. They can't go out with their friends, they can't drink alcohol at events and can't be seen on their own with a gypsy man.

It's not just about being submissive to your husband and trusting them, they sacrifice alot and have an awful lot of restrictions on what they can and can't do. It is interesting to watch, somethings they do I think we could learn from and other stuff has to be seen to be believed.

 

[torsie24]

Amazing show, and an insight into a completely different lifestyle.

 

[Chilly]

Its a brilliant, shocking, funny and sad programme all at once.

 

[Tiggeriffic79]

OMG your making it sound like they are slaves, they aren't.

They are living by centuries old tradition and are HAPPY. Not all cultures and societies are the same, even western.

While the girls do leave the family, and have little or no education, they are not removed from society never to see another human again. They live in very close knit communities. No one (other than the gypsies) know how they really live, because the gypsy community is one of the most secretive communities around.

What you see in the programme is clever editing and media bias. The programme has created uproar in the gypsy community, and anything you see in a negative light should be taken in context and with a grain of salt.

They actually pitty us because we don't get to spend as much time as they do with our families.

Just because they live differently, doesn't make it wrong or barbaric.

 

[tinkerbell 766]

I have quite a lot of contact with traveller and gypsy girls through my job and where I live - the patch which my ambulance station covers takes in Appleby where the world famous gypsy horse fair takes place. Believe me when I say that they are not all happy. Some feel resentful and feel they have little or no control over their lives!!!

 

[tinkerbell 766]

There is obviously a difference between what is happening in this culture and choosing to be a stay at home wife and mother. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't twist my words.

I agree. There is a huge difference between being a stay at home mum and having to obey your husband just because he is your husband!!!!
These girls are shunned by their communities if they disobey their fathers/husbands/brothers etc. That can never be good!!!

 

[brer rabbit 28]

I agree. There is a huge difference between being a stay at home mum and having to obey your husband just because he is your husband!!!!
These girls are shunned by their communities if they disobey their fathers/husbands/brothers etc. That can never be good!!!

I agree too. It's a fascinating series to watch, but I did feel sad for a lot of the young girls who had to move away from their friends and families. It is their culture and they do what is expected of them. I recall one episode where the bride was about 26 years old and was considered almost too old to become a wife. She had stayed in education and in doing so was frowned upon by the community.

 

[Tiggeriffic79]

I've also had a lot of interaction with gypsy families, I have been friends for many years with a family of settled travellers, I went to school with a few, and in my teenage years spent a lot of time 'hanging out' on a council approved camp.

In general it's only the girls who have been 'westernised' that display any dis-pleasure with their situation, not because they are mis-treated or trapped, but because of the differences in freedoms given in the different cultures. I agree their freedoms are a lot more limited to the freedoms we know, but even they are fairly 'new' freedoms (post ww2). Prior to this the uk culture was patricarchal also.... Even post ww2 into the '50's/60's.

Many eastern countries have patriarchal cultures, the gypsy 'way' is no different to that displayed in the east. In a countries such as Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia etc the gypsy 'way' is normative.

 

[MonorailPilotMulan]

I've also had a lot of interaction with gypsy families, I have been friends for many years with a family of settled travellers, I went to school with a few, and in my teenage years spent a lot of time 'hanging out' on a council approved camp.

In general it's only the girls who have been 'westernised' that display any dis-pleasure with their situation, not because they are mis-treated or trapped, but because of the differences in freedoms given in the different cultures. I agree their freedoms are a lot more limited to the freedoms we know, but even they are fairly 'new' freedoms (post ww2). Prior to this the uk culture was patricarchal also.... Even post ww2 into the '50's/60's.

Many eastern countries have patriarchal cultures, the gypsy 'way' is no different to that displayed in the east. In a countries such as Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia etc the gypsy 'way' is normative.

I see exactly what you mean about eastern cultures, it seems like the community is a bit of a taste of the Middle East culture in Western Europe.

I can't wait to see the show, I find this kind of thing very interesting. I wouldn't necessarily agree with their lifestyle but it's very interesting to see how other people live and plan their weddings.

 

[rosworms]

There is obviously a difference between what is happening in this culture and choosing to be a stay at home wife and mother. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't twist my words.

I wasn't trying to twist your words, thank you very much.
I will try to be more clear.
I'm not just talking about the modern day stay at home wife. I am talking about a submissive wife. The man makes most of the decisions especially the big decisions. The wife does as she is told.
This is the type of marriage that can only work if the man in charge really loves his wife. Wants her to feel fulfilled, asks for her input when making his decisions, etc.


I've been watching this show today... most of the couple that have a featured wedding, it looks like they really do care for each other and that this relationship is going to work for them. And even one of the girls who had her own job and her own car and her own money... she CHOSE to keep with tradition and she left all of that behind when she got married so she could take care of her man.




The only thing that really bothers me about the community is the practice of grabbing.

 

[princesswendy720]

I wasn't trying to twist your words, thank you very much.
I will try to be more clear.
I'm not just talking about the modern day stay at home wife. I am talking about a submissive wife. The man makes most of the decisions especially the big decisions. The wife does as she is told.

This is the type of marriage that can only work if the man in charge really loves his wife. Wants her to feel fulfilled, asks for her input when making his decisions, etc.

I've been watching this show today... most of the couple that have a featured wedding, it looks like they really do care for each other and that this relationship is going to work for them. And even one of the girls who had her own job and her own car and her own money... she CHOSE to keep with tradition and she left all of that behind when she got married so she could take care of her man.

The only thing that really bothers me about the community is the practice of grabbing.

Personally, I carry the view that men and women should be equals-and treated as such. So we'll have to agree to disagree as far as that's concerned.

 

[HelenaB]

They don't choose to leave school at 12 or 13 - they are removed by their families to help "at home". This obviously has the side effect that it's difficult for them to do anything else once they're an adult as they have such a basic education.

This is totally different from choosing to stay at home with your children.

Most of us live in a culture where we are all educated to a certain level. We have choices in our lives and can choose to stay at home with our children if we want. Or have a career if we want. We are equal partners with our husbands or partners. That's the way it should be in the modern age.

I'm sitting here looking at my 9 year old daughter and I can't imagine willingly forcing her to leave education in a year or so and limiting her choices so much.

 

[tinkerbell 766]

I've also had a lot of interaction with gypsy families, I have been friends for many years with a family of settled travellers, I went to school with a few, and in my teenage years spent a lot of time 'hanging out' on a council approved camp.

In general it's only the girls who have been 'westernised' that display any dis-pleasure with their situation, not because they are mis-treated or trapped, but because of the differences in freedoms given in the different cultures. I agree their freedoms are a lot more limited to the freedoms we know, but even they are fairly 'new' freedoms (post ww2). Prior to this the uk culture was patricarchal also.... Even post ww2 into the '50's/60's.

Many eastern countries have patriarchal cultures, the gypsy 'way' is no different to that displayed in the east. In a countries such as Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia etc the gypsy 'way' is normative.

I wasn't trying to twist your words, thank you very much.
I will try to be more clear.
I'm not just talking about the modern day stay at home wife. I am talking about a submissive wife. The man makes most of the decisions especially the big decisions. The wife does as she is told.
This is the type of marriage that can only work if the man in charge really loves his wife. Wants her to feel fulfilled, asks for her input when making his decisions, etc.


I've been watching this show today... most of the couple that have a featured wedding, it looks like they really do care for each other and that this relationship is going to work for them. And even one of the girls who had her own job and her own car and her own money... she CHOSE to keep with tradition and she left all of that behind when she got married so she could take care of her man.




The only thing that really bothers me about the community is the practice of grabbing.

I agree that many eastern cultures are the same. I also agree that it is the fact that the girls involved live within westernised societies which make some discontented, but surely that is the point!!! It is going to make them question their situation if they are exposed, even in a small way (via the media etc) to the freedoms their peers experience. Just because several cultures have similar traditions, it doesn't mean it is morally right (or wrong, for that matter). I am afraid there is a huge amount of difference between being happy (ie choosing a particular way of life) and being forced into it. These girls are forced into a particular way of life and I still say that many are unhappy and downtrodden by their men/

Rosworms - Each to their own. You obviously have very strong beliefs!!! I hope you don't come to regret your decision. Your post makes me feel I have gone back in time a hundred years. The girl you speak of in the programme with the car and the job is very much in the minority and many in her community shun her as a 'troublemaker' She is a very strong woman!!

 

[Tiggeriffic79]

Wow there are some pretty narrow minded views in this thread

Women, men and children have lived in patriarchal societies of thousands of years. Modern so called 'equal' societies are very new concepts.

It may be hard for a person with more freedoms to understand how another with less freedoms can ever be happy, but the simple fact is the majority are. There will always be a minority that express discontent, but I don't think a society exits where 100% of the population are completely content.

Just because the two are different does not make either better or worse than the other. There are positives and negatives to both sides.

I wish we all lived in an accepting society where perceived happiness is not judged by the way a person lives their life, or on anothers ideals. Differences are exactly that, if we learnt to embrace those differences and not judge them the world would be a better place.

 

[HelenaB]

Wow there are some pretty narrow minded views in this thread

Women, men and children have lived in patriarchal societies of thousands of years. Modern so called 'equal' societies are very new concepts.

It may be hard for a person with more freedoms to understand how another with less freedoms can ever be happy, but the simple fact is the majority are. There will always be a minority that express discontent, but I don't think a society exits where 100% of the population are completely content.

Just because the two are different does not make either better or worse than the other. There are positives and negatives to both sides.

I wish we all lived in an accepting society where perceived happiness is not judged by the way a person lives their life, or on anothers ideals. Differences are exactly that, if we learnt to embrace those differences and not judge them the world would be a better place.

Narrow- minded... no I honestly don't think so (and I've thought about it).

I know people in traditionally patriarchal situations, but it's their choice and in all the situations that I know personally they've been educated (quite often very highly educated) and made an educated decision to follow a particular path.

None have been dragged out of school at 12. None are encouraged to break the law by avoiding taxes and by removing their own children from education at an early age or by camping on private or public land (e.g. a local park) and leaving it rubbish-strewn etc.

I can't imagine being in a situation where my opinion or wishes didn't count or counted less than my husband. I can't respect a culture that denies half it's members an education and a choice of future and deliberately breaks the law.

 

[tinkerbell 766]

Narrow- minded... no I honestly don't think so (and I've thought about it).

I know people in traditionally patriarchal situations, but it's their choice and in all the situations that I know personally they've been educated (quite often very highly educated) and made an educated decision to follow a particular path.

None have been dragged out of school at 12. None are encouraged to break the law by avoiding taxes and by removing their own children from education at an early age or by camping on private or public land (e.g. a local park) and leaving it rubbish-strewn etc.

I can't imagine being in a situation where my opinion or wishes didn't count or counted less than my husband. I can't respect a culture that denies half it's members an education and a choice of future and deliberately breaks the law.

I agree and think this is a very well written post!!!

Tiggeriffic 79 -I am so sorry if you see me as narrow minded!!! People who know me from these boards know that I always try to see all points of view.
I agree that people have lived in patriarchal socities for centuries and our concept of equality is fairly new. I am not entirely sure what your point is. Surely any way of life which denies people certain rights or choices simply by virtue of their sex needs to be questioned, no matter how 'centuries old' it is. How else can we move forward as human beings?
I have absolutely no doubt that some girls who have this way of life forced upon them (and I am sorry, but these girls rarely have a say in which path their life takes), are content and happy. I am delighted for the girls that are satisfied with their lot. I do not think you can deny, however, that there are a significant proportion of them who are not. Do they not matter? Are their views and wishes to be glossed over in the name of tradition or because 'that is how it is done' in their culture. Female circumcision is tradition in some African cultures - is that right too? If the girls in question are happy to have no say in their lives, to leave their education at 12 or 13 and work in their homes, that is great, and nobody has the right to question that choice. But choice is the operative word here!! Taking choices away from young people who may have masses of potential, in the name of tradition, well I can never see how that is desirable.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but you seem to be saying that we should not be expressing concern for those who are not content with the lack of personal control they have over their lives, (in whatever culture), because they are in the minority. I am sorry, but I will never feel this way. Does that make me narrow minded?

 

[Tiggeriffic79]

Narrow- minded... no I honestly don't think so (and I've thought about it).

I know people in traditionally patriarchal situations, but it's their choice and in all the situations that I know personally they've been educated (quite often very highly educated) and made an educated decision to follow a particular path.

None have been dragged out of school at 12. None are encouraged to break the law by avoiding taxes and by removing their own children from education at an early age or by camping on private or public land (e.g. a local park) and leaving it rubbish-strewn etc.

Many are not dragged out of education, many are dragged into education by the government. There is a lot of significant research into the
negative affects our current educational philosophy has (google Ivan Illich, Paulo Freire, Stiener) Infact if these families were based in the US the issue education would be nul, as they would be classed as home schooled. It is the Uk government that impose the education issue onto the gypsy community.

I agree they don't pay taxes, but nor do they claim any benefit from those taxes.

They live on land that was once open pasture, just because 'our' society has modernised and populated those open pastures, doesn't make their decision to live the 'old' way less valid. And there is no excuses for litter dropping, bu last time I went down a st there was litter, so they aren't the only ones guilty of that

I can't imagine being in a situation where my opinion or wishes didn't count
or counted less than my husband. I can't respect a culture that denies half it's members an education and a choice of future and deliberately breaks the law.

You are fortunate then that you don't have to, but not respecting a culture because it has differing views to your own IMO is narrow-minded

I agree and think this is a very well written post!!!


I am so sorry if you see me as narrow minded!!! People who know me from these boards know that I always try to see all points of view.
I have absolutely no doubt that some girls who have this way of life forced upon them (and I am sorry, but these girls rarely have a say in which path
their life takes), are content and happy. =" by your own admission they can't be forced if they are happy, if you are forced into something you are unhappy no? I am
happy for the girls that are satisfied with their lot. I do not think you can deny, however, that ther are a significant proportion of them who are not. Do they not matter? Are their views and
wishes to be glossed over in the name of tradition or because 'that is how it is done' in their culture. and in the most the unhappy ones are the ones to leave. The gypsy community do dis-own them. That is known. But surely then you have achieved you goal, the girl is free to experience life as a 'western' woman does the gypsy community protect their way of life Female circumcision is tradition in some African cultures - is that right too? I'm not sure this compares to ritual mutilation of a persons body These girls are simply following the traditions of their family and culture through submissive behaviourIf the girls in question are happy to have no say in their lives, to leave their education at 12 or 13 and work in their homes, that is great. so why are you so concerned if they are happy? But taking choices away from young people who may
have masses of potential in the name of tradition, well I can never see how that is desirable.

Perhaps they feel like they are reaching their full potential
by being a good mother and wife not every woman wants a career

 

[Tiggeriffic79]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but you seem to be saying that we should not be expressing concern for those who are not content with the lack of personal control they have over their lives, (in whatever culture), because they are in the minority. I am sorry, but I will never feel this way. Does that make me narrow minded?

I'm not saying concern should not be shown, if there was something to be concerned about.

We don't truly know the extent of control they have nor desire. Assumptions have been made on the extent of control others may have or desire. Ie. You are judging them by your standards. but if they happy to live by their tradition, right or wrong, that is their decision to be respected. As I've said different is not necessarily wrong.

If a person is unhappy, they have the choice to leave that situation, and many do.

All I'm trying to say is don't judge a situation just because it is different to one you know. You may not agree with their ways, but it their right to have them.

 

[tinkerbell 766]

Okay, I agree that the word forced may have been too strong. There is, however, no denying that their choices are frequently removed in the name of 'protecting their way of life' as you put it. I question your statement that the community does not 'shun' a girl who goes her own way or (heaven forbid) seeks divorce from the her all powerful lord and master!!! Maybe not always, but it happens and in my dealings with these communities, I have heard of some girls whose families have disowned them for doing just that!!! I know that this is true in many eastern cultures too, but I cannot see this as acceptable whether it applies to one girl or millions!!!
In the series of programmes, there was one bride who admitted that from the day she married, her husband 'owned her'. Nobody 'owns' anybody else. That is fact.
I agree that few really know what goes on in these communities (including yourself), but the said communities seem to be working to put out the impression that their girls are at the beck and call of the men in their lives. And I am not just getting this impression from the TV programme, but also from conversations I have personally had with travelling women and men
I know we have different points of view on this and I accept we will never agree. I will not post on this thread anymore for that reason. I do, however, resent being called narrow minded just because I question some things which you find acceptable. Perhaps you should question your own reluctance to accept that people think differently to you

 

[Tiggeriffic79]

Okay, I agree that the word forced may have been too strong. There is, however, no denying that their choices are frequently removed in the name of 'protecting their way of life' as you put it. I question your statement that the community does not 'shun' a girl who goes her own way or (heaven forbid) seeks divorce from the her all powerful lord and master!!! I have never said it doesn't occur. In fact I agreed they did Maybe not always, but it happens and in my dealings with these communities, I have heard of some girls whose families have disowned them for doing just that!!! I know that this is true in many eastern cultures too, but I cannot see this as acceptable whether it applies to one girl or millions!!! What I was trying to say was that by 'shuning' them, they are in effect, creating a situation where the girl is the left to live and experience the freedoms of the western world. so the shunning then surely becomes a non issue? The aren't trapped anymore. and from your posts it is this western life you feel these girls should be living

In the series of programmes, there was one bride who admitted that from the day she married, her husband 'owned her'. Nobody 'owns' anybody else. That is fact. I agree no one owns anybody else
I agree that few really know what goes on in these communities (including yourself), but the said communities seem to be working to put out the impression that their girls are at the beck and call of the men in their lives.
And I am not just getting this impression from the TV programme, but also from conversations I have personally had with travelling women and men
I know we have different points of view on this and I accept we will never agree. I will not post on this thread anymore for that reason. I do, however, resent being called narrow minded just because I question some things which
you find acceptable. Perhaps you should question your own reluctance to accept that people think differently to you

I have NEVER said I found the actions acceptable nor unacceptable. That I agree with any particular way of living. That concern should not be shown for those that want it and steps taken to protect them. I have never said that I disagree with your views on womens rights either. I have stated that if a person is happy with their lifestyle/culture/traditions then it is not the place of others to judge or criticise them on what they feel is the right way to live. There is NO right way to live, just opinions on. My belief is that if a person is happy with their situation more power to them, and that everyone else should be accepting and respectful of that. Wether you agree or disagree with a way of life simply seeing a negative/positive view of it is not enough, you need to keep a balanced view and show tolerance and acceptance